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[Linkenski]

And I still can't figure out if Casey Hudson's intent with that was to make Synthesis the best ending (because the Reapers are actually good in his eyes) or make it a bad choice, but present it purposefully as the best option because that's the Catalyst's/Reapers' opinion.

 

I always felt like it was presented as the best option because Bioware thought it was the best solution, not realising how counter it is to everything we've fought for and how wrong it is in general, not to mention Bioware not recognizing the fact that Synthetics and Organics being the main theme was extremely hamfisted and didn't have enough empirical evidence throughout to be believable.

 

But part of me thinks maybe this is all a trick, especially after how much they managed to subvert parts of the ending in the Extended Cut not to mention a lot of the added dialogue with the Catalyst can also be found in the leaked script from November 2011.

 

I like to give Mac Walters a lot of flack mainly because Foundation comics sucked and because ME3's main parts, especially the intro and endings sucked but also because whenever I get to hear Mac talk publically he seems like... to be quite blunt, not very smart, but who knows? Maybe he is very passionate and analytical about his own writing but he's instead he's just very bad orally.

 

Clearly, Synthesis was an idea conveived by Casey and/or Mac looking at what Saren said in ME1 "Organics and Machines intertwined! A union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both; the weaknesses of neither!", but it's whether Bioware really thought the choice was supposed to be beautiful, good or satisfying as opposed to wrong, deceiving, unethical, weird etc. is another question that I can't quite wrap my head around.

[Obadiah]

@Darks1d3: It does remind one of Legion in ME2:
"The Old Machines offered to give us our future. A short cut to our objective. We rejected it. The Geth will build our own future. The process is as important as the result."
or Mordin:
"Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."

I think Bioware was conscious of these quotes when making the EC. That is why the initial images shown with the companions, the ones that represent the current generation, are so similar to the other endings. It is to show that individuals are not drastically changed, but that over time, over the generations, as they use their abilities, as they strive within Synthesis, the civilization becomes that much more advanced.

[StarcloudSWG]

Yes, but Bioware only became conscious of those quotes AFTER the disaster of the original ending was written and presented.

 

The writers certainly were either not aware of or did not care about the drastic change in perspective in the way Legion was written in Mass Effect 3. And this is because Mac Walters did not like the way Legion thought in an alien way in Mass Effect 2. He thought Legion, and by extension Geth, should want to become individual entities 'and be a *real* human boy.' Pinnochio complex.

[dreamgazer]

ME2's retconned geth started them down the path of individuality with their "schism".

[BioWareMod02]

While you guys are totally encouraged and welcome to express your opinions on topics I'd like to remind you to please keep in mind that directly insulting someone whether it be insinuating their not "up to par" intellectually is prohibited. Be nice ladies and gents. ♥ 

[dreamgazer]

I always felt like it was presented as the best option because Bioware thought it was the best solution, not realising how counter it is to everything we've fought for and how wrong it is in general, not to mention Bioware not recognizing the fact that Synthetics and Organics being the main theme was extremely hamfisted and didn't have enough empirical evidence throughout to be believable.

ME1 wouldn't have existed without the geth that rebelled and sided with the Reapers.

ME2 reinforces the idea that rebelling synthetics can't be bridled without rewriting or destroying.

ME3 is, well, ME3.

Even Drew K. addresses the conflict between organics and synthetics as a central theme in the series.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

What are the Reapers, according to what Bioware has written?

 

They're not synthetics. They're not organics. They're a *ahem* synthesis *ahem* of organic and synthetic.

 

What do you do in Synthesis? You turn *everyone* into a synthesis of organic and synthetic, and do so under the direction of the Reaper AI gestalt.

 

The result?

 

EVERYONE in the galaxy becomes a Reaper creature.

 

Eventually, organics will evolve who are not part of the Reaper gestalt. Then, they will be coaxed, coerced, and finally forced to join the Reaper gestalt, 'for their own good.'

 

The harvest will begin again. Their lives will be over. They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

 

The Reapers are synthetics. They have no organic traits. They do not drink. They do not eat. They do not procreate. They do not sleep. All that's organic about them can be replaced with a synthetic analogue like a hard-drive or any other memory storage device.

 

For all intents and purposes, Reapers are synthetics.

[Autoola]

Perhaps that´s the problem with synthesis: some people like it, some don´t and it shouldn´t be up to one person to decide this for everybody now and future generations.

 

For me personally, synthesis is a solution to a problem I don´t have. Probably it´s my fault, but the syn-org-conflict was new for me when the catalyst came up with it.

Geth/Quarians: just between geth and quarians; krogans, turians etc. not involved

EDI/Cerberus: EDI has no problems with other organics (and without reapers she wouldn´t even exist)

Zha´til/prothean: before my time... mass-effect-wiki says "the Protheans were forced to obliterate the zha'til entirely". 

Other synthetics against organics: unknown

Visions of a not-so-far-future or very-far-future (syns will wipe out orgs): none

None of them want to surpass their creators, but just don´t want to be eradicated.

Btw: No one (including developers of the game ) can consider the long-term consequences of synthesis.

[Fandango]

ME1 wouldn't have existed without the geth that rebelled and sided with the Reapers.

ME2 reinforces the idea that rebelling synthetics can't be bridled without rewriting or destroying.

ME3 is, well, ME3.

Which is to say what exactly? That Legion doesn't have a soul? That EDI doesn't step beyond her programming and fall for Jeff? That - when Shepard finally convinces both sides to stop shooting and start talking - Quarian and Geth don't immediately start making inroads towards rebuilding and resettling Rannoch together?

Yep, it seems to me like the treatment of Synthetics in Mass Effect is a good deal more sophisticated than you give the game(s) credit for.

I wonder why?

[Obadiah]

To me, ME3 is complicated. On the face of it, there is much cooperation and reconciliation between the Synthetics and Organics, but it is in the context of the threat of Reapers destroying them all. In effect, the Reapers are the only reason much of the development happens:

• Legion - Doesn't get Reaper upgrades to talk about a soul. Also, probably realizes the "soul" thing is a metaphor.
• Quarians and Geth - Don't get together unless the Reapers stop the Quarians from destroying the Geth, and Shepard does not mediate
• EDI and Jeff - No Reaper invasion means EDI is still an illegal AI hiding in lockdown on an Alliance dock. No EVA body. No Reaper threat means EDI doesn't even exist because Sovereign doesn't attack and TIM doesn't create EDI.

Of course, any reconciliation, if it were to happen, would take place in its own special circumstance.

[SporkFu]

To me, ME3 is complicated. On the face of it, there is much cooperation and reconciliation between the Synthetics and Organics, but it is in the context of the threat of Reapers destroying them all. In effect, the Reapers are the only reason much of the development happens:

• Legion - Doesn't get Reaper upgrades to talk about a soul. Also, probably realizes the "soul" thing is a metaphor.
• Quarians and Geth - Don't get together unless the Reapers stop the Quarians from destroying the Geth, and Shepard does not mediate
• EDI and Jeff - No Reaper invasion means EDI is still an illegal AI hiding in lockdown on an Alliance dock. No EVA body. No Reaper threat means EDI doesn't even exist because Sovereign doesn't attack and TIM doesn't create EDI.

Of course, any reconciliation, if it were to happen, would take place in its own special circumstance.

I wonder about the geth/quarian thing a little bit. Suppose for a moment, Xen develops the flashbang-like weapon and the quarians go to war to take back their home. The quarians were winning before the reapers got involved. What if the reapers never got involved, either by not invading yet, or by simply waiting for the two sides to kill eachother as much as possible before sweeping in and cleaning up the remains. Would the geth have been wiped out? Very likely, considering no one else in the galaxy liked them enough ... except my current shepard *ahem*. 

[dreamgazer]

To me, ME3 is complicated. On the face of it, there is much cooperation and reconciliation between the Synthetics and Organics, but it is in the context of the threat of Reapers destroying them all. In effect, the Reapers are the only reason much of the development happens:

• Legion - Doesn't get Reaper upgrades to talk about a soul. Also, probably realizes the "soul" thing is a metaphor.
• Quarians and Geth - Don't get together unless the Reapers stop the Quarians from destroying the Geth, and Shepard does not mediate
• EDI and Jeff - No Reaper invasion means EDI is still an illegal AI hiding in lockdown on an Alliance dock. No EVA body. No Reaper threat means EDI doesn't even exist because Sovereign doesn't attack and TIM doesn't create EDI.

Of course, any reconciliation, if it were to happen, would take place in its own special circumstance.

Ding, ding.

[KaiserShep]

The geth would have been done for. Even if the geth had the capacity to develop a countermeasure to Xen's weapon, the initial onslaught would have begun to whittle them down to the point where there wouldn't be enough programs to do so effectively.

 

Regarding the reapers and the context they provide for development, I have to wonder what the geth would have done if Sovereign was not around. After all, no Sovereign, no heretic army.

[SporkFu]

The geth would have been done for. Even if the geth had the capacity to develop a countermeasure to Xen's weapon, the initial onslaught would have begun to whittle them down to the point where there wouldn't be enough programs to do so effectively.

 

Regarding the reapers and the context they provide for development, I have to wonder what the geth would have done if Sovereign was not around. After all, no Sovereign, no heretic army.

I wonder how hard Xen would have pushed for "returning the geth to the control of their former masters" as was her dream. 

 

As for Sovvy, I think the geth would simply have completed their 'mega-structure to house all geth' -- which might possibly have made them a  tougher opponent for the quarians, since the greater their network, the smarter they were.  Other than that, I think they would've just continued to shoot anyone who crossed into the perseus veil, like they'd been doing for three hundred years, content to build their own future. 

[Fayfel]

If the ME2 geth had even been in ME3 the quarians would have died before they knew what went wrong. The geth mind is such that they would have had a workaround in a matter of seconds. They had fleets rivaling the strength of every organic race combined AND had been preparing for war with a race of fantastically powerful sentient machines capable of thinking quadrillions of times faster than entire organic populations. On top of that they were capable of technological feats that not even the Reapers had been able to demonstrate.

 

What do the quarians have? 200 or so cruisers and 49800 liabilities. Even if the geth had just sat there, the quarians would have run out of ammunition before they did significant damage.

 

Weekes knows as much about the MEU as he does the reaction to it's endings, which is to say very little.

[Reorte]

I ignored nothing. I have barely argued with any of your assertions. I am simply bringing you the other side of the argument.

Any side of the argument needs to take such things into account if it's to appear valid instead of merely contradcitory.

[Farangbaa]

Perhaps that´s the problem with synthesis: some people like it, some don´t and it shouldn´t be up to one person to decide this for everybody now and future generations.

 

You and you alone decide for everybody in all the endings.

[Fandango]

You and you alone decide for everybody in all the endings.

Unsurprisingly, you missed Autoola's point Psychevore. To confirm, some people wonder whether having the game celebrate the virtue of eugenically mutating everyone against their will is a bad thing. What do you think?

[Obadiah]

Unsurprisingly, you missed Autoola's point Psychevore. To confirm, some people wonder whether having the game celebrate the virtue of eugenically mutating everyone against their will is a bad thing. What do you think?

I think the choice is still up to Shepard.

[Fandango]

I think the choice is still up to Shepard.

Aren't you forgetting the ultimatum made by the Catalyst to force Shepard into committing a war crime and accept suicide under duress?

[KaiserShep]

I wonder how hard Xen would have pushed for "returning the geth to the control of their former masters" as was her dream. 

 

As for Sovvy, I think the geth would simply have completed their 'mega-structure to house all geth' -- which might possibly have made them a  tougher opponent for the quarians, since the greater their network, the smarter they were.  Other than that, I think they would've just continued to shoot anyone who crossed into the perseus veil, like they'd been doing for three hundred years, content to build their own future. 

 

I guess a number of other factors would probably make this irrelevant. If there was no Sovereign left behind, the reapers would have simply eradicated this cycle as well, since no heretics means Tali never discovers the geth unit that had any recording, Saren is still just a regular a-hole Specter, there'd be little to no geth presence in the Veil to cause a major stir, and the Collectors would have simply started snatching our people up in the remote colonies. I doubt anything of importance would have happened in the 3-4 years time before the reapers decide to come the long way round, and I don't think anyone would have known what that doodad out in batarian space was, so no preventing the Alpha Relay entry.

[Farangbaa]

Unsurprisingly, you missed Autoola's point Psychevore. To confirm, some people wonder whether having the game celebrate the virtue of eugenically mutating everyone against their will is a bad thing. What do you think?

 

Unsurprisingly, you totally missed my point. That Shepard forces something on people in Synthesis is irrevelant, Shepard does this in all endings. All of them, including refuse.

[Fandango]

Unsurprisingly, you totally missed my point. That Shepard forces something on people in Synthesis is irrevelant, Shepard does this in all endings. All of them, including refuse.

And that speaks to Autoola's post about people presuming to have moral authority enough to roll out something as invasive as synthesis how?

[Iakus]

The Reapers are synthetics. They have no organic traits. They do not drink. They do not eat. They do not procreate. They do not sleep. All that's organic about them can be replaced with a synthetic analogue like a hard-drive or any other memory storage device.

 

For all intents and purposes, Reapers are synthetics.

 

The Reapers are cybernetic organisms.  ME2 made that quite clear.  And while they may not eat or drink as we understand it (though they must derive energy from something) they do procreate.  Again, as ME2 demonstrated.  It's just not the way organics do.  And while what is organic could in theory be replaced with synthetic analogues, the fact remains they do have organic components.  They are partly organic, just as Shepard is partly synthetic.