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[Obadiah]

Aren't you forgetting the ultimatum made by the Catalyst to force Shepard into committing a war crime and accepting suicide under duress?

Shepard is where s/he is. By all means complain about the situation and circumstance, it doesn't change the position that Shepard is in. A decision must still be made.

[Edit]I said previously that the choices in the Decision Chamber were similar in scope to an act of nature, but Synthesis is the most powerful of these. When something of this power is available to us, what is our responsibility? Obviously some think the answer is to not use it (they have explained their rationale well enough repeatedly), I am not so convinced.

[Iakus]

 

• Legion - Doesn't get Reaper upgrades to talk about a soul. Also, probably realizes the "soul" thing is a metaphor

 

"Does this unit have a soul?" is a geth question dating back to before the Morning War.

 

In ME2 Legion states "We are created life.  We are a philosophical issue.  The geth know our answers to these questions.  We were created to labor for the quarians.  Our memories will be archived after death.  We are immortal.  Our gods disowned us.  We must create our own reasons to exist...We are a shattered mind."  Legion waxed philosophical long before getting the upgrades.

[Iakus]

Shepard is where s/he is. By all means complain about the situation and circumstance, it doesn't change the position that Shepard is in. A decision must still be made.

Thank you, I believe I shall.

 

This being a game, and not real life, I think I have every right to complain about heavy-handed circumstances sucking all the fun out of what is supposed to be entertainment.

[cap and gown]

"Does this unit have a soul?" is a geth question dating back to before the Morning War.

 

In ME2 Legion states "We are created life.  We are a philosophical issue.  The geth know our answers to these questions.  We were created to labor for the quarians.  Our memories will be archived after death.  We are immortal.  Our gods disowned us.  We must create our own reasons to exist...We are a shattered mind."  Legion waxed philosophical long before getting the upgrades.

 

Where does he say this? I have never heard this dialogue. Is this something in the unused audio files?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Reapers are cybernetic organisms.  ME2 made that quite clear.  And while they may not eat or drink as we understand it (though they must derive energy from something) they do procreate.  Again, as ME2 demonstrated.  It's just not the way organics do.  And while what is organic could in theory be replaced with synthetic analogues, the fact remains they do have organic components.  They are partly organic, just as Shepard is partly synthetic.

 

You cite meaningless technicalities. Bottom line is that the Reapers do not have any traits that make them unique to any other form of synthetic life. What's "organic" about them is just data storage. And the Virtual Alien also was created from destructive upload. Any AI can build more of themselves as well, but none of them can do it like organics.

 

Endless semantics and pedantry need not apply. So, again, they are synthetic for all intents and purposes.

[Iakus]

Where does he say this? I have never heard this dialogue. Is this something in the unused audio files?

It's one of his later conversations:

 

http://www.youtube.c...j9b7igFizc#t=18

[Iakus]

You cite meaningless technicalities. Bottom line is that the Reapers do not have any traits that make them unique to any other form of synthetic life. What's "organic" about them is just data storage. And the Virtual Alien also was created from destructive upload. Any AI can build more of themselves as well, but none of them can do it like organics.

 

Endless semantics and pedantry need not apply. So, again, they are synthetic for all intents and purposes.

I pointed out how they have most or all the traits you claimed they did not have.  Whether they identify as organic or synthetic is beside the point.  And in fact, an artificial (har har) distinction.

 

In fact, I have said before, Grunt and Miranda are technically synthetic life as well.  As they were created, not born.

[cap and gown]

It's one of his later conversations:

 

http://www.youtube.c...j9b7igFizc#t=18

 

Holy crap! How do you get this dialogue? Maybe I have just not bothered hitting up a dialogue choice that looked like one I had picked before. Maybe I need to get Legion earlier one of these times and just let the crew die. I cannot believe I have missed this!

[Iakus]

Holy crap! How do you get this dialogue? Maybe I have just not bothered hitting up a dialogue choice that looked like one I had picked before. Maybe I need to get Legion earlier one of these times and just let the crew die. I cannot believe I have missed this!

I've never let the crew die and always got that.  I believe it's available after doing his loyalty mission

[essarr71]

Legion can be tricky to get all his conversations because you typically get him very late in the game and "time" (ie: missions) need to pass before more unlocks. Similar to feeding your fish.

Cant remember when exactly that convo takes place, but i seem to remember there being one more available after the SM if you leave some things to do. But its been years since ive played 2, so i could be wrong.

[SporkFu]

I guess a number of other factors would probably make this irrelevant. If there was no Sovereign left behind, the reapers would have simply eradicated this cycle as well, since no heretics means Tali never discovers the geth unit that had any recording, Saren is still just a regular a-hole Specter, there'd be little to no geth presence in the Veil to cause a major stir, and the Collectors would have simply started snatching our people up in the remote colonies. I doubt anything of importance would have happened in the 3-4 years time before the reapers decide to come the long way round, and I don't think anyone would have known what that doodad out in batarian space was, so no preventing the Alpha Relay entry.

I dunno that Saren's initial contact with Sovvy had anything to do with the geth, though. It's entirely possible that it did, and I've forgotten   I think Sovvy would've had to find an army somewhere else... and the geth 'thing' had nothing to do with the protheans disrupting the keeper signal. 

[prosthetic soul]

Ending was a ******* disaster not because shep died.

It was a disaster because of a lot of things.  Including the fact that Shep died in practically every ending. 

[Fandango]

Shepard is where s/he is. By all means complain about the situation and circumstance, it doesn't change the position that Shepard is in. A decision must still be made.

[Edit]I said previously that the choices in the Decision Chamber were similar in scope to an act of nature, but Synthesis is the most powerful of these. When something of this power is available to us, what is our responsibility? Obviously some think the answer is to not use it (they have explained their rationale well enough repeatedly), I am not so convinced.

I'm not complaining about Sheps situation more than I'm calling you out for failing to properly acknowledge the context within which that final selection is made. And as for that second paragraph, I'll leave it to the good people reading this thread to decide for themselves whether the game has done good work in validating the conceit of those who would claim that they could ever have moral authority enough to eugenically mutate every living thing in the galaxy without the permission of a single solitary person. And that's to say nothing of the wonders of Control and Destroy!

You see Patrick Weekes, the ending to ME3 was poorly received by many (many, many, many) people because it somehow managed to pervert the entire trilogy in turning it into a celebration of ignorance, violence and the virtue of becoming a war criminal. Suddenly - at the very last - the game fessed up and told the player that a hero cannot succeed unless they were willing to deny basic fundamental freedoms and that morality ultimately must be abandoned to do what needs to be done.

Marvellous!

[Valmar]

It always amuses me to see people speak so ill of Shepard for destroying the reapers. You're right, he's a war criminal and a monster. How dare he destroy the reapers knowing it will take out synthetics as well. That monster.

 

Good thing the refusal ending exists, Shepard can die with his integrity intact. You know for those players who won't let the complete annihilation of all advanced life in the galaxy compromise who they are. MORAL WARRIORS UNITE!

 

I'm going to be the immoral war criminal who just destroys the reapers, no matter the price. Anderson would be so damn disappointed.

 

 

 

Seriously, its mind boggling some of the reasons people come up with to hate on the ending. You couldn't get a happier ending then Synthesis yet people want to complain that its horrible. Looked really peaceful to me but hey, I'm crazy like that. Control is just as bad, of course, because now the galaxy has the army of reapers protecting them and helping them rebuild and serving them. Oh the humanity! 

[Autoola]

Shepard is where s/he is. By all means complain about the situation and circumstance, it doesn't change the position that Shepard is in. A decision must still be made.

[Edit]I said previously that the choices in the Decision Chamber were similar in scope to an act of nature, but Synthesis is the most powerful of these. When something of this power is available to us, what is our responsibility? Obviously some think the answer is to not use it (they have explained their rationale well enough repeatedly), I am not so convinced.

The answer isn´t to not use it, but to let everybody make his own decision about it. I would like to have this power available to all of us, not just to one person. The catalyst exists since eons, has suddenly the best solution ever and won´t give me 2 days to talk with anybody (i.e. council) over it.

 

 

You and you alone decide for everybody in all the endings.

 

You´re right. I just thought that Shep reunites the entire galaxy for fighting reapers. They all accept risk of dying and follow Shep to earth because s/he said s/he will kill the reapers. So I think Shep has the permission to destroy the reapers. Maybe I´m wrong with it and the reasons are different. And I´m not saying that it´s the best option. But it´s the only option I can estimate what my fellowship would think about it.

But in the end, Shep stands alone in the chamber and has to decide alone, right.

 

 

And that speaks to Autoola's post about people presuming to have moral authority enough to roll out something as invasive as synthesis how?

You´re really good at pointing something out, aren´t you?

[Valmar]

The answer isn´t to not use it, but to let everybody make his own decision about it. I would like to have this power available to all of us, not just to one person. The catalyst exists since eons, has suddenly the best solution ever and won´t give me 2 days to talk with anybody (i.e. council) over it.

 

I'm trying to visualize Shepard asking for a time-out in that situation. It's pretty amusing actually. Though to be fair I'm one of the people who doesn't even like talking to the starbrat completely and rushes straight for destroy. Every minute you spend up there talking to the reapergram hundreds of people die. War is blazing right there in front of you with ships blowing up left and light but lets slow down and have a little chat with the reapers before blowing them to hell. Maybe pour some tea and have some biscuits.

[Farangbaa]

The answer isn´t to not use it, but to let everybody make his own decision about it. I would like to have this power available to all of us, not just to one person. The catalyst exists since eons, has suddenly the best solution ever and won´t give me 2 days to talk with anybody (i.e. council) over it.

 

 

You and you alone decide for everybody in all the endings.

 

You´re right. I just thought that Shep reunites the entire galaxy for fighting reapers. They all accept risk of dying and follow Shep to earth because s/he said s/he will kill the reapers. So I think Shep has the permission to destroy the reapers. Maybe I´m wrong with it and the reasons are different. And I´m not saying that it´s the best option. But it´s the only option I can estimate what my fellowship would think about it.

But in the end, Shep stands alone in the chamber and has to decide alone, right.

 

 

You´re really good at pointing something out, aren´t you?

 

Why be offended now?

 

Shepard has had the authority the decide the fate of entire species since the beginning. It's kinda the game's thing, you know? Making decisions that affect a galaxy.

[KrazyKiko]

Even after these many years, it seems they still don't get it.  Not sure I'd say "grieving" like losing a parent or child, but I was certainly angered with the direction the ending took.  I started Mass Effect in 2007 creating a character that looked like me; spent over 80 hours in the ME1 world envisioning myself as Shepard - saving the day against Saren and the mysterious Reaper Sovereign. Then, after getting jettisoned out of the Normandy SR1 in ME2 (WTF plot device), I spent another 50+ hours trying to figure  out how to customize my squads armor and weapons (oh wait....), collecting "ammo", getting to know my Cerberus-provided crew.  Oh, can't forget trying to battle the Collectors and our Harbinger, our second favorite reaper.  Then, to conclude my journey in ME3, rather than some big epic battle against the Machines (whether it be the Reapers or the Catalyst), I get three choices, well, OK...a 4th choice I suppose.  All four really didn't fit with how I'd want to end my character; I was angry at the lack of depth and detail they threw together for the ending.  With as much of "me" I put into the game, the ending just took the wind out of my character and caused me to question all the time I put into the game...I spent over 150 hours for this?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why be offended now?

 

Shepard has had the authority the decide the fate of entire species since the beginning. It's kinda the game's thing, you know? Making decisions that affect a galaxy.

 

To be fair I haven't been a fan of many of those past decisions as well.

[Obadiah]

Holy crap! How do you get this dialogue? Maybe I have just not bothered hitting up a dialogue choice that looked like one I had picked before. Maybe I need to get Legion earlier one of these times and just let the crew die. I cannot believe I have missed this!

 

Best reason to save a bunch of side quest or loyalty missions for after the suicide mission is to get Legion's dialogs. Unless, er, you let the crew get killed.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm not complaining about Sheps situation more than I'm calling you out for failing to properly acknowledge the context within which that final selection is made. And as for that second paragraph, I'll leave it to the good people reading this thread to decide for themselves whether the game has done good work in validating the conceit of those who would claim that they could ever have moral authority enough to eugenically mutate every living thing in the galaxy without the permission of a single solitary person. And that's to say nothing of the wonders of Control and Destroy!

You see Patrick Weekes, the ending to ME3 was poorly received by many (many, many, many) people because it somehow managed to pervert the entire trilogy in turning it into a celebration of ignorance, violence and the virtue of becoming a war criminal. Suddenly - at the very last - the game fessed up and told the player that a hero cannot succeed unless they were willing to deny basic fundamental freedoms and that morality ultimately must be abandoned to do what needs to be done.

Marvellous!

 

Yet there was a way around the destroy problem: don't interfere with the situation Shepard had no business deciding in the first place. That was choosing the Geth or the Quarians. Let the situation take its natural course which was letting Tali or Raan kill Legion/Geth VI, and watching the Quarians retake their homeworld. On my first play of the game, peace was not possible, and I didn't even know what would happen in the end, but I sided with the Quarians. EDI was the only sacrifice that i knew of to end the war. And as it turns out the Normandy functions just fine without her.

 

Yet to destroy the reapers, we blew up the galaxy. It was a wasteland. The relays were destroyed. And the Normandy crashed. Javik and Liara populated the jungle world with the new Asari race and that was the beginning of things as they are today, 10,000 years later. Many of the details have been lost with time.

[Obadiah]

I'm not complaining about Sheps situation more than I'm calling you out for failing to properly acknowledge the context within which that final selection is made.
...

With respect to that whole ultimatum forced war crime "context", shouldn't you mention the part where we built the Crucible, and the Catalyst will let us fire it, and that those war crime downsides are only because we were playing with power we didn't understand - what we accused TIM of doing - that firing the Crucible had unknown consequences that we were just then made aware of? If the Catalyst wasn't there, and the Crucible was fired, Destroy (or I guess Control?) would happen anyway, we just wouldn't be aware of what it did until afterwards.

I don't consider the options war crimes, but if I did, I think it would be better to know about them before choosing. So really, you should be thanking the Catalyst.

[voteDC]

It's one of his later conversations:

 

http://www.youtube.c...j9b7igFizc#t=18

I've never seen that before. What an awesome conversation.

[DeinonSlayer]

To be fair I haven't been a fan of many of those past decisions as well.

Where's the "leave the queen in her jar, the Council can deal with it" option?