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[SporkFu]

Where's the "leave the queen in her jar, the Council can deal with it" option?

I always kinda had the feeling that the council doesn't really want to know what their spectres get up to -- at least until they go rogue, and even then it's like, "okay you deal with it." And I also think that they might have questioned shep's ability to be a spectre if he turned to them to make the big decisions. The whole point of being picked to be a spectre is that you're the guy who can make those decisions. They may not be happy about those decisions at times, but I never saw them even hinting at taking shep's spectre badge away from him. Of course, sometimes that could be because I hung up on them before they could 

[KaiserShep]

Where's the "leave the queen in her jar, the Council can deal with it" option?

I can't imagine that Binary Helix would just leave the facility there unattended so that the Council could send in more forces to rummage through their stuff. They'd probably send someone up there to finish the job and eradicate as much evidence as they could. I mean, the guards at Peak 15 were more than willing to kill a Spectre if he/she were to snoop in the wrong place.

[DeinonSlayer]

I can't imagine that Binary Helix would just leave the facility there unattended so that the Council could send in more forces to rummage through their stuff. They'd probably send someone up there to finish the job and eradicate as much evidence as they could. I mean, the guards at Peak 15 were more than willing to kill a Spectre if he/she were to snoop in the wrong place.

"What guards?"

[ImaginaryMatter]

I always kinda had the feeling that the council doesn't really want to know what their spectres get up to -- at least until they go rogue, and even then it's like, "okay you deal with it." And I also think that they might have questioned shep's ability to be a spectre if he turned to them to make the big decisions. The whole point of being picked to be a spectre is that you're the guy who can make those decisions. They may not be happy about those decisions at times, but I never saw them even hinting at taking shep's spectre badge away from him. Of course, sometimes that could be because I hung up on them before they could 

 

I understand making snap decisions when the circumstance calls for it but not all the major decisions are like that. The Rachni queen isn't much of a threat inside her plexiglass cage (if she can mind control the bodies simply move them out of her reach). An important part of being a decision maker is to acknowledge that some decisions are out of your depth. Humanity is a new comer and I feel like the Council would have a much better perspective on how to deal with the situation. In a best case scenario -- and a highly optimistic one -- perhaps the Council can keep the queen alive but constrict the Rachni to a single planet for enforcement (although I'm pretty sure the Council would just squish her without much hesitation).

 

From a game play perspective you can offer a much greater illusion of choice without actually branching the game too much. By offering a third option (or forth if you leave it with Noveria, I guess) you can double the choices available while only leaving two branching paths (the Council can decide to either kill or spare the queen). Plus, you get to appease nitpickers like me.

[SporkFu]

I understand making snap decisions when the circumstance calls for it but not all the major decisions are like that. The Rachni queen isn't much of a threat inside her plexiglass cage (if she can mind control the bodies simply move them out of her reach). An important part of being a decision maker is to acknowledge that some decisions are out of your depth. Humanity is a new comer and I feel like the Council would have a much better perspective on how to deal with the situation. In a best case scenario -- and a highly optimistic one -- perhaps the Council can keep the queen alive but constrict the Rachni to a single planet for enforcement (although I'm pretty sure the Council would just squish her without much hesitation).

 

From a game play perspective you can offer a much greater illusion of choice without actually branching the game too much. By offering a third option (or forth if you leave it with Noveria, I guess) you can double the choices available while only leaving two branching paths (the Council can decide to either kill or spare the queen). Plus, you get to appease nitpickers like me.

Perhaps. If shep was still just an Alliance soldier then yeah, I'd agree with the whole "humanity is a newcomer thing". But he's not just an Alliance soldier anymore. He's a spectre. He's a bad-ass, one of the elite of the galaxy. He's got swagger, and he's gotta let everybody know that he knows it. Saren knew it. He wouldn't have gone to the council and said, "Listen, I've got a rachni out here, what do you want me to do?"

 

That's why shep can hang up on them in the middle of their what-the-hell-did-you-do rant and get away with it. I forget when he says it --  maybe after curing the genophage and talking to Valern over the comm, just before the coup attempt? --  Shep says, "I made my decision, and there's not much anyone can do about it now." and Valern kinda says, "Yes... well... uhh..." ... and that's about the only response anyone should be able to give. 

 

Also, the fact that shep is a spectre means he's already got the council's go ahead to make those decisions on their behalf. That's why they picked him.  

 

That's my take on it. 

[Fandango]

Yet there was a way around the destroy problem: don't interfere with the situation Shepard had no business deciding in the first place. That was choosing the Geth or the Quarians. Let the situation take its natural course which was letting Tali or Raan kill Legion/Geth VI, and watching the Quarians retake their homeworld. On my first play of the game, peace was not possible, and I didn't even know what would happen in the end, but I sided with the Quarians. EDI was the only sacrifice that i knew of to end the war. And as it turns out the Normandy functions just fine without her.
 
Yet to destroy the reapers, we blew up the galaxy. It was a wasteland. The relays were destroyed. And the Normandy crashed. Javik and Liara populated the jungle world with the new Asari race and that was the beginning of things as they are today, 10,000 years later. Many of the details have been lost with time.

Aye, it's interesting to consider that Destroy is much less the disgusting massacre for those who failed to reconcile the differences between Geth and Quarian so. Thing is - not to open up an entirely new kettle of fish - why would one choose to side with the Quarians on Rannoch? Actually - given that he wrote the arc (I think) - I'd love to hear Patricks thoughts on things.
 

I don't consider the options war crimes, but if I did, I think it would be better to know about them before choosing. So really, you should be thanking the Catalyst.

That you don't consider the Catalysts solutions war crimes is really for the lack of trying Obadiah. What did your cannon Shep choose in the chamber?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Aye, it's interesting to consider that Destroy is much less the disgusting massacre for those who failed to reconcile the differences between Geth and Quarian so. Thing is - not to open up an entirely new kettle of fish - why would one choose to side with the Quarians on Rannoch? Actually - given that he wrote the arc (I think) - I'd love to hear Patricks thoughts on things.
 

That you don't consider the Catalysts solutions war crimes is really for the lack of trying Obadiah. What did your cannon Shep choose in the chamber?

 

Patrick's take on that arc was this in essence: the Quarians were a bunch of racists. We portrayed them to be that way. The mission was set up to be pretty much one sided so that the player would see the Geth as sympathetic and the Quarians as the bad guys. That was his take on it.

 

However, role playing MY Shepard who was friends with Tali, the only Geth who had not shot at her for the entire time she had known of the Geth was Legion or the Geth VI. The only Quarian who had ever shot at her was Gerrel. Tali was her friend. The Geth had sided with the Reapers, twice. They wanted to upload Reaper code, and the logic here was that "upload reaper code and all will be well. Trust us." Sorry, that doesn't wash. I can't let you upload the code.

 

There are three reasons to side with the quarians:

 

1. Lack of trust in the Geth.

2. Trust in the familiar.

3. Blood is thicker than synthetic oil. i.e. - Tali's friendship - Shepard owes her becoming a Spectre to Tali. - let's not forget Tali's irrefutable evidence in ME1. Without Tali, there would be no hope for the galaxy at all.

[cap and gown]

Patrick's take on that arc was this in essence: the Quarians were a bunch of racists. We portrayed them to be that way. The mission was set up to be pretty much one sided so that the player would see the Geth as sympathetic and the Quarians as the bad guys. That was his take on it.

 

Well, if that was his take, I would say he didn't accomplish his goal. My first few games were non-import because I started in ME3 (which WAS a good starting point for me because when I finally got ME1 I hated it) and had no background for this whole Geth-Quarian thing. So when Geth VI said "we regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative" I said "well I do" and stopped him cold. No way I was going to side with some robots over an organic species. Heck, I didn't even know that if I hadn't stopped him Tali would have committed suicide, but I certainly wasn't going to let her entire, irreplaceable species be wiped out by a bunch of machines that could be recreated on a whim in any factory.

[Vazgen]

Geth were pretty much the bogeymen of ME universe for the entirety of ME1 and for at least 80% of ME2. ME3 gives you their point of view which is, however, pretty forced and raises quite valid questions of Legion's objectivity. Legion lies to you twice - once on geth fighter mission and once when he doesn't tell you about the upgrades. Consider also the change in geth agenda from ME2 - "we build our own future" is replaced with "we want Reaper upgrades". In fact, if Legion simply asked to stop the war without mentioning uploading Reaper code I would've viewed the geth in a more positive light. On my first playthrough, I got peace option but somehow it felt... wrong.

P.S. That Renegade interrupt when Legion talks about geth being alive is awesome

[Valmar]

 

P.S. That Renegade interrupt when Legion talks about geth being alive is awesome

 

Do you happen to have a video? I'd like to hear that.

 

 

Personally I view the geth as 'alive' and definitely don't share this view that some do about them being 'just machines' to sacrifice. The sheer lack of empathy some people have towards the geth really helps validate the Geth's desire to just not get involved with organics. Yet I still think the peace feels wrong... they're no longer the Geth. The Legion I knew and the geth I thought I knew in the second game are gone. Even if you save the geth the geth we knew are still gone, replaced by these reaper-upgraded things that we've never actually met before.

[Vazgen]

First version - Legion VI

Second version - Legion 

 

I prefer the first version (Mike will most likely prefer the second) 

[Obadiah]

Do you happen to have a video? I'd like to hear that.
 
 
Personally I view the geth as 'alive' and definitely don't share this view that some do about them being 'just machines' to sacrifice. The sheer lack of empathy some people have towards the geth really helps validate the Geth's desire to just not get involved with organics. Yet I still think the peace feels wrong... they're no longer the Geth. The Legion I knew and the geth I thought I knew in the second game are gone. Even if you save the geth the geth we knew are still gone, replaced by these reaper-upgraded things that we've never actually met before.

The Geth are different after the upgrade. Tali tried to explain the Geth in ME1, and eventually just went with something like "they're incredibly complex, and have been changed/upgraded themselves for 300 years." Because they are constantly shifting hardware platforms, they have no fixed personality, or no personality. The only reason Legion has a personality is the extended mission in ME2 that it was on where its runtimes existed on one platform for so long. I don't know if they would judge the difference from the upgrade the same way we do.

To me, the Geth after the Reaper upgrades are updated s\w running on the same hardware, memories, experience, and history as the previous Geth. Gone? Probably. Old Geth changed and therefore gone - I'm not sure they would judge it in those terms.

[Barquiel]

"we build our own future" is replaced with "we want Reaper upgrades". In fact, if Legion simply asked to stop the war without mentioning uploading Reaper code I would've viewed the geth in a more positive light. On my first playthrough, I got peace option but somehow it felt... wrong.
P.S. That Renegade interrupt when Legion talks about geth being alive is awesome

 

I suppose it's easier to say such things if your species is not on the edge of extinction. Without the reaper code the geth simply have no future they could build. If they hadn't used the upgrade it's unlikely that Shepard would have been able to convince the quarians to stop the attack. Shepard used the upgrade as leverage to convince the quarians that they would be wiped out if they continue the attack. So I don't hold it against Legion for using the upgrades on their own terms. And "sticking to your principles whatever the cost is" is one concept the Geth logically wouldn't share.

[Vazgen]

I suppose it's easier to say such things if your species is not on the edge of extinction. Without the reaper code the geth simply have no future they could build. If they hadn't used the upgrade it's unlikely that Shepard would have been able to convince the quarians to stop the attack. Shepard used the upgrade as leverage to convince the quarians that they would be wiped out if they continue the attack. So I don't hold it against Legion for using the upgrades on their own terms. And "sticking to your principles whatever the cost is" is one concept the Geth logically wouldn't share.

I see their reasons but it doesn't really change my outlook. I act on the current situation, my decision either leaves quarians effectively extinct with Reaper-upgraded machines present or vice versa. I will choose quarians every time. That's my vision, others might not share it but that's what RPG games are about

[DeinonSlayer]

*sees where the thread is heading*

[Barquiel]

I see their reasons but it doesn't really change my outlook. I act on the current situation, my decision either leaves quarians effectively extinct with Reaper-upgraded machines present or vice versa. I will choose quarians every time. That's my vision, others might not share it but that's what RPG games are about

 

I didn't want to discuss the decision itself (we all know it has been done to death). I was just pointing out that there was no alternative to the reaper code. Uploading the code is the reason why Shepard had any power to mediate in the situation (if you want peace). Simply asking to stop the war wasn't really an option at this point.

[Iakus]

I suppose it's easier to say such things if your species is not on the edge of extinction. Without the reaper code the geth simply have no future they could build. If they hadn't used the upgrade it's unlikely that Shepard would have been able to convince the quarians to stop the attack. Shepard used the upgrade as leverage to convince the quarians that they would be wiped out if they continue the attack. So I don't hold it against Legion for using the upgrades on their own terms. And "sticking to your principles whatever the cost is" is one concept the Geth logically wouldn't share.

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?"

[Iakus]

I didn't want to discuss the decision itself (we all know it has been done to death). I was just pointing out that there was no alternative to the reaper code. Uploading the code is the reason why Shepard had any power to mediate in the situation (if you want peace). Simply asking to stop the war wasn't really an option at this point.

 

"The geth don't want to fight you.  If you can believe that for just one minute, this war will be over.  You have a choice.  Please.  Keelah se'lai"

[Valmar]

The Geth are different after the upgrade. Tali tried to explain the Geth in ME1, and eventually just went with something like "they're incredibly complex, and have been changed/upgraded themselves for 300 years." Because they are constantly shifting hardware platforms, they have no fixed personality, or no personality. The only reason Legion has a personality is the extended mission in ME2 that it was on where its runtimes existed on one platform for so long. I don't know if they would judge the difference from the upgrade the same way we do.

To me, the Geth after the Reaper upgrades are updated s\w running on the same hardware, memories, experience, and history as the previous Geth. Gone? Probably. Old Geth changed and therefore gone - I'm not sure they would judge it in those terms.

 

It isn't so much that they upgraded themselves its the insane degree for which the upgrade changes them. The Geth were essentially VI processes that linked together to form the equivalent to AI. They are not technically AI in the same sense that we consider most AI to be AI. They do not value independence but rather unity. The reaper upgrade destroys this and makes them each an independent AI. They no longer rely on the connectivity with multiple geth programs to form one complex entity. Before it was "there is no individual" but now thats completely changed. The geth, imo, are one of the most interesting forms of AI I've ever seen in fiction and that comes largely from how nontraditional they are.

 

To quote the Wiki:

"According to Legion, each geth is made up of hundreds of programs equivalent to VIs, all operating in parallel with one another to form a kind of emergent intelligence"

 

Individually the geth are no smarter than a varren. It is only through unity and connection with other geth do they gain complexity and intelligence. The reaper upgrade completely changes this. This is like jumping from Linux to Windows. It isn't so much a upgrade as it is an entirely different OS. I get that the geth likely don't view the upgrade the same way I do, and they might be right. I'm only saying that from my perspective all my interaction and experience with the geth feels like it was with an entirely different species to what they are now.

 

Legion even seemed like an entirely different 'person'. The geth's perspective on accepting the reaper upgrades are drastically different between 2 and 3. So much so that its like they're written by completely different writers. Which apparently they were.

 

I suppose it's easier to say such things if your species is not on the edge of extinction. Without the reaper code the geth simply have no future they could build. If they hadn't used the upgrade it's unlikely that Shepard would have been able to convince the quarians to stop the attack. Shepard used the upgrade as leverage to convince the quarians that they would be wiped out if they continue the attack. So I don't hold it against Legion for using the upgrades on their own terms. And "sticking to your principles whatever the cost is" is one concept the Geth logically wouldn't share.

 

I would argue that 'sticking to the principles' is a concept the Geth share. The entire reason the heretics split up from the geth was because of a difference in principle. Also Legion could had just lied and said it was giving the code to the geth. It isn't like the quarians can tell what geth have the upgrade and what geth don't. They'd be completely oblivious to it and have to accept Shepard's word - something they potentially do anyway without any proof to back up the claim.

 

I hold "using the upgrades on their own terms" against Legion because it is DIRECTLY contradictory to the geth in the second game.

 

"Legion believes that the technology in the Collector base should not be used, for humanity has the potential to create their own future without it.

If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, Legion calls it an interesting choice, saying humanity was offered everything geth aspire to - unity, understanding and transcendence. Legion adds that Shepard even rejected using the Reapers' technology to achieve victory on humanity's own terms, and comments that the Commander is more like the geth than Legion initially thought."

[Autoola]

I'm trying to visualize Shepard asking for a time-out in that situation. It's pretty amusing actually. Though to be fair I'm one of the people who doesn't even like talking to the starbrat completely and rushes straight for destroy. Every minute you spend up there talking to the reapergram hundreds of people die. War is blazing right there in front of you with ships blowing up left and light but lets slow down and have a little chat with the reapers before blowing them to hell. Maybe pour some tea and have some biscuits.

That would be really funny. (Just to make it clear: I don´t wanna chat with the reapers before blowing them to hell, I wanna talk to my people before turning them into a new org-syn-mixed specie. And it´s the catalyst: who else could stop the reapers?) But I get your point. Shep is in a hurry to decide something (meaning it seriously and without any negative emotions.)

 

Why be offended now?

 

Shepard has had the authority the decide the fate of entire species since the beginning. It's kinda the game's thing, you know? Making decisions that affect a galaxy.

I´m sorry. I wasn´t offended. I´m really thinking you´re right. Perhaps I should write like Elcors talk or use some smileys. Sorry.

[Obadiah]

...
Legion even seemed like an entirely different 'person'. The geth's perspective on accepting the reaper upgrades are drastically different between 2 and 3. So much so that its like they're written by completely different writers. Which apparently they were.

This gets brought up a lot, and I understand where it comes from. All I can say is I don't see it as drastic. Legion had the upgrades, and seemed mostly the same. The Geth runtimes in platforms, even as fully evolved AI, probably behave mostly the same, but they are capable of forming a personality in a local platform.

Philosophies get applied and decision are made per the situation. Some people would never have considered picking whatever they pick in the Decision Chamber if not for the specific circumstance. Legion is in a desperate situation, one that occurred under the old philosophy. It is not illogical for it to see some flaw from this experience and build upon on it - adapt its philosophy.
 

That would be really funny. (Just to make it clear: I don´t wanna chat with the reapers before blowing them to hell, I wanna talk to my people before turning them into a new org-syn-mixed specie. And it´s the catalyst: who else could stop the reapers?) But I get your point. Shep is in a hurry to decide something (meaning it seriously and without any negative emotions.)
...

To me, since Mass Effect has always been a bit of a power fantasy, it is appropriate to have that power, its effects, and the ethics of its use, raised to such a ridiculous level in the Decision Chamber.

Of course, there is no way of getting around the fact that Synthesis violates an individual's person-hood and their right to self-determinism. The Decision Chamber raises the stakes to somewhat dizzying heights, the existence of all organic life in the galaxy. The question with all of the options, but most especially Synthesis, is: does Shepard have a right to do this? The ending challenges us to confront this question, normally answered categorically with "no", and come to some resolution.

Some people hate it (not pointing fingers ), but the challenge is one of the reasons I like the ending.

[themikefest]

First version - Legion VI

Second version - Legion 

 

I prefer the first version (Mike will most likely prefer the second) 

I like the first one. I've only did the 2nd one once. The majority of my playthroughs, I give the geth to Cerberus

 

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?"

No. I'd rather die then be someone's play thing.

[Vazgen]

I like the first one. I've only did the 2nd one once. The majority of my playthroughs, I give the geth to Cerberus

Does Shepard still refer to the VI as "Legion" if you give it to them? And are things different if you neither give nor activate it?

[Reorte]

Also, the fact that shep is a spectre means he's already got the council's go ahead to make those decisions on their behalf. That's why they picked him.

Yet the Council and not the Spectres are ultimately in charge. A Spectre needs to be able to make those decision when he has to but also needs to be able to judge when he has to.

[themikefest]

Does Shepard still refer to the VI as "Legion" if you give it to them? And are things different if you neither give nor activate it?

The only time that I have Shepard call it Legion is when Legion is dead in ME2 during the suicide mission.

 

What I find interesting, is when I give the geth to Cerberus, Shepard will remember it from being on  the derelict reaper when seeing the geth VI on the dreadnought, but if Shepard doesn't give it to Cerberus and doesn't activate it, Shepard won't mention anything about the geth being on the derelict reaper.