I´m not saying that they are no longer the enemy and not indoctrinated. I´m just questioning why I can´t use them if they´re right.
You're wondering why you can't team up with indoctrinated reaper-puppet Saren and TIM and bring them along with you throughout the trilogy to the crucible to confront the Starbrat together. I'm not going to bother explaining to you why this scenario is messed up - if it isn't obvious then nothing I say will convince you.
1. You compare an artificial limb with an "upgrade" which allows Sarens body to move, fight and speak after a shot in the head. I don´t think you´re indoctrinated for using an artificial limb. Shep however, can´t live after being shot down (my game always stops at this point and I have to do the fight again) and I´m feeling really sorry for Shep brought back to life as a cyborg just for fighting a superior alien species and being killed by them in the end.
Saren did die after being shot in the head, though. It was Sovereign speaking through him and fighting you. Saren wasn't saying "now that my body is just a puppet, I'm perfect!" He was arguing that he was improved with cybernetic implants that made him stronger than ever. He doesn't factor in the detail about being a puppet - something he kills himself over once you make him realize the situation he's in. Remember Saren spent the entire game fighting indoctrination, he didn't realize how far he had gone.
Shepard is essentially the same at this point. He was brought back from the dead using expensive technology. Look at the kinds of upgrades you pick up in ME2... Skin weave, muscle weave, bone weave... glowing red eyes with red scars on the face. The only difference between Saren and Shepard in terms of being partly synthetic is that Saren was controlled by the reapers with reaper tech. Shepard isn't controlled by anything but himself. No reaper nanites or whatever. He's still partly synthetic.
Also, Shepard doesn't have to die in the ending. The destroy ending with a high enough EMS score allows Shepard to live.
2. "Ideas from bad people are bad ideas" - I´ve never said anything like this. Of course not. Like you said, the ending proves that TIM was right, but that´s a fact I didn´t know earlier in the story. I didn´t realize that taking control is an option. I thought it was just an idea of a crazy person. "So the Illusive Man was right after all????" was exactly my thought. And I thought Saren´s indoctrination makes him thinking that synthesis would solve the problem, just a trick to get his help.
Perhaps YOU didn't but inversevideo did, the poster you were defending. Typically speaking when you give the impression you're siding with someones argument it is reasonable for people to make the connection that you share similar perspectives with the person you were defending.
You're inadvertently suggesting the very thing you say you're not, however. You say you're not advocating that "ideas from bad people are bad ideas" yet you then turn around and suggest that Saren's perspective was due to his indoctrination and and is just a trick. It completely undermines any merit to his statements.
Really? That´s something I´ve missed. I´ve never had the feeling that TIM fights against me because I want to end the war, but because I want to destroy the reapers and he wants to control them. And why should an indoctrinated agent prevent us from ending the war? That´s all the reapers want from us: stop fighting a losing battle. Or do you mean "ending the war by destroying the reapers"? In that case I agree.
I never said that. I never said why TIM was fighting us, in which case you're right its because he wanted to control the reapers (and was indoctrinated). Let me quote myself:
"We didn't stop him because he wanted control, we stopped him because he was an indoctrinated agent of the reapers trying to prevent us from ending the war."
SHEPARD'S reason for stopping TIM was not because he wanted to control them. It was because TIM was an indoctrinated ass that kept sabotaging everything and getting in our way. TIM's reasons for fighting US is a completely different matter.
Wait. Right at this moment I have a breakthrough. I think I can understand how you see the story and through your eyes I have to be very blind. It´s very enlightening.
Insulting me for making an argument I never made but rather something you falsely claim I made is very mature of you. Stay classy.
That´s not the same imo. Suicide mission: collectors will be killed (not controlled), no matter what happens to the base. LLM: right at the beginning Legion tells you about the 2 options (destroy or rewrite, not control).
It is still essentially the same thing. You can either destroy the base completely or you can save it. Save is essentially the same as control because now you have the entire base, all its research, all its data and knowledge intact to use. You can either destroy the heretic station and the heretics or you can rewrite them. Rewriting them is essentially the same thing as control because its taking control of the heretics and the heretic station. Yes Legion tells you about the rewrite option at the start of the mission but the point was that this was a mission you went into expecting only to destroy. It isn't until you're actually there does the option of control come up.
My point was that the objective we set out to complete as Shepard has before in the past changed at the last moment. Infact, this happens all the time in the series. We set out to save Kenson, we end up blowing up a relay. We set forth to kill Vito we end up having to make a choice between him and refinery workers. We go to kill Samara's daughter and we get the choice to kill her instead. The game has at many occasions presented another option for us to choose from at the last moment or even seemingly at random. Just because we go through the game with the mindset of "destroy, destroy, destroy!" does not mean the game shouldn't present another option.
Ok. I admit that from your point of view the ending is something expectable and Shep is thinking about control. But
I wasn´t thinking about control, it never has been an option to me until the catalyst told me so, for 2 reasons. First, I didn´t believe TIM. He did horrible experiments to humans and kept saying it was all for humankind. He tried to figure out how indoctrination works to indoctrinate the reapers by himself. That really not sounds like a possibility. Second, I can control my computer, my toaster, and even a ship, but talking about controlling 289 synthetic-organic beings, aeons of age, everyone a nation is a completely different thing. Imo. Then the catalyst comes and tells me how to control the reaper (which I was supposed to kill) with the crucible (which was supposed to be a weapon). It is my fault that I didn´t see that coming.
Talking about the value of synthesis and control is a different story.
I don't know what to tell you. I saw the control ending coming. I wasn't expecting it to turn out the way it did, of course, but I figured it'd play some part in the ending. Yes, TIM's methods were brutal. They did however get results. I never would had thought he could control reaper troops but he did. It isn't the same as the reapers, to be sure, but it still proves that we don't know all we think we know. TIM even has novels dedicated to him researching the reaper's and their indoctrination. Despite this I was still surprised to see him making breakthroughs in controlling them. I really didn't think it was possible. At that point I realized I didn't know all I thought I knew and I shouldn't make grand assumptions.
I wasn't surprised to see control come up in the ending. Again, the circumstances and delivery of this choice was a surprise (wtf, nightmare boy?) but the notion of control wasn't surprising to me. Synthesis? Hell yeah, that came out of no where and still makes no sense whatsoever. Control however was there being foreshadowed all along, even if it wasn't a guaranteed thing.
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Like I said, it´s 
