989 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

To be fair, it's a stationary target that'd need to be built to withstand transportation and debris collision (and docking with the Citadel), so it's going to be fairly durable.

 

I don't really expect consistency in these matters with ME's technology. I mean, all this stuff is just sticking out of the Citadel's center exposed to open space, yet no one ever tried to land there to look at it. Maybe it all just came out of a trap door, or maybe there was a big "NO STEP" sign plastered there and those law-abiding turians, asari and salarians heeded its warning for thousands of years.

[rapscallioness]

I didn't read thru the thread, but..my 2 cents anyway:

 

Yes, I grieved. It was painful--for me. There is still some grief there.

 

But see the thing is, I was prepared for that. I knew, like many that were on the forums, or heck, picked up on the heavy foreshadowing within the game. I was willing to accept that.

 

What got me was that in the original ending, it felt like it was in vain. I never cared about the Catalyst. That never bothered me. I was like, okay sure whatever. But after that, after the Crucible fired...to take a line from Aveline in DA2 talking abt Ostagar, "It was like Hope answered with Nothing. It was the strangest feeling.."

 

Not seeing the war assets doing their thing may not seem like a big deal, but it would have meant alot. Seeing these races, these people, that I'd grown to care about--that somehow I had managed to bring together--to unite, against this nightmare--do their thing. It would have meant alot. It broke my heart hearing that one line from the Elcor Ambassador when Shep asked how many Elcor managed to escape. For the first time I can recall, the Elcor used no descriptive term, he just said it--after a long pause, "Not enough."

 

To have seen him/them with those guddam canons on their backs kicking azz would have meant some semblance of justice. Some.

 

Then to see those relays exploding after having played Arrival a few times. Prepping for ME3 and all that. It was horrifying. It was a moment of horror. Seeing that immediately made me think everything was destroyed--because of Arrival. So, what the hell was this all for then? I just killed everybody.

 

And after the Crucible firing, the scenes seemed to me to be heavily edited and nonsensical. Your fav crew somehow is walking off this crashed ship? Wth is going on here? Then boom! cue energetic music and buy some dlc. No funeral. No closure. No winding it down.

 

Wtf? What?

 

So, although I was prepared for Shep's death, and willing, I was not prepared for the insensitivity with which they would treat this end. For the carelessness. Yes, there was grief, but that's not the whole story. And that seems to be something to which they have yet to grasp, or admit.

 

The ending -Post-Crucible Firing- was careless and ramshackle. The story, the ME universe, and Shep deserved better. I'm willing, and do, let many, many things slide, but this---they fvcked it up. And want to pretend like they didn't.

[Han Shot First]

I think Weekes was on track when he says that a lot of the fans were experiencing grief, but I think he's largely wrong on what they were grieving for.  It wasn't Shepard they were mourning...it was the destruction of the Mass Effect universe they had come to know and love over the course of five years and three games.

 

Bioware's biggest misfire in my opinion was deciding to end the series with Shepard failing to save galactic civilization, and having that civilization collapse into a millenia-long dark age where space travel is no longer even possible. It almost felt like an example of Torch the Franchise and Run. That is no longer true after the Extended Cut of course, but I think the bleak and depressing nature of the original endings is what caused much of the backlash.

 

While there is a vocal minority that is unwilling to accept any ending where the protagonist dies, Shepard dying wasn't responsible for the ending backlash. Take The Walking Dead, a game that released the same year as ME3, as an example. For every person who bashed Telltale for

Spoiler

killing Lee

, there were probably 100 other fans raving about what an amazing game it was, or talking positively about their emotional reaction to the ending.

[Dabrikishaw]

The ending is a complete mess and deserves every scrap of scorn it gets.

But...Citadel is an even bigger mess. Tonally jarring, flat characterization, autodialogue. And players gobbled it up. I think Weekes has a point.

That he does. 

[KaiserShep]

While there is a vocal minority that is unwilling to accept any ending where the protagonist dies, Shepard dying wasn't responsible for the ending backlash. Take The Walking Dead, a game that released the same year as ME3, as an example. For every person who bashed Telltale for

Spoiler

killing Lee

, there were probably 100 other fans raving about what an amazing game it was, or talking positively about their emotional reaction to the ending.

 

I must admit, when I was coming to the conclusion of The Walking Dead, I actually felt terribly sad over the whole affair, but in a very good way. I found it to be genuinely moving for a couple of reasons.

 

Spoiler

The game got me to care a great deal about Clementine as it progressed, to the point where the protagonist's life was a secondary concern. The fact that all of the characters were in real danger of being snuffed out added to this. More than that, Lee's impending doom was not something that came out of nowhere, or was a follow-through of flimsy foreshadowing; it was assured to the player that it was going to happen, and it was just a matter of when, and so the rest of the game was Lee doing what he could before it was over. TWD is, to me, a pitch perfect example of how to kill the protagonist in an immensely satisfying way.

[Glockwheeler]

So the handgun can't do the same amount of damage from 50 feet away as it would do 2 feet away?

I wonder what Shepard would have done, had his blaster been empty prior to choosing Destroy?

[KaiserShep]

I wonder what Shepard would have done, had his blaster been empty prior to choosing Destroy?

 

He would have gotten down on his knees and cast about in despair, and in one final moment of spiritually-charged imagery, Conrad Verner would appear before him and say "I told you so. Now, do you really think you can defeat the reapers?" And then he vanishes.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I must admit, when I was coming to the conclusion of The Walking Dead, I actually felt terribly sad over the whole affair, but in a very good way. I found it to be genuinely moving for a couple of reasons.

 

Spoiler

The game got me to care a great deal about Clementine as it progressed, to the point where the protagonist's life was a secondary concern. The fact that all of the characters were in real danger of being snuffed out added to this. More than that, Lee's impending doom was not something that came out of nowhere, or was a follow-through of flimsy foreshadowing; it was assured to the player that it was going to happen, and it was just a matter of when, and so the rest of the game was Lee doing what he could before it was over. TWD is, to me, a pitch perfect example of how to kill the protagonist in an immensely satisfying way.

 

Spoiler

 

My response.

[dreamgazer]

I wonder what Shepard would have done, had his blaster been empty prior to choosing Destroy?

 

The clip fairy probably left a few heat sinks lying around somewhere up there. 

[Han Shot First]

I must admit, when I was coming to the conclusion of The Walking Dead, I actually felt terribly sad over the whole affair, but in a very good way. I found it to be genuinely moving for a couple of reasons.

 

Spoiler

The game got me to care a great deal about Clementine as it progressed, to the point where the protagonist's life was a secondary concern. The fact that all of the characters were in real danger of being snuffed out added to this. More than that, Lee's impending doom was not something that came out of nowhere, or was a follow-through of flimsy foreshadowing; it was assured to the player that it was going to happen, and it was just a matter of when, and so the rest of the game was Lee doing what he could before it was over. TWD is, to me, a pitch perfect example of how to kill the protagonist in an immensely satisfying way.

 

Well said.

 

TWD is probably the gold standard for a well executed bittersweet ending in a video game. That and Silent Hill 2 are the two games that stand out for me as having bittersweet endings that were as well written and executed as anything done on film.

[Glockwheeler]

The clip fairy probably left a few heat sinks lying around somewhere up there. 

 

In all honesty, I'm still torn to some degree over the endings, in general. I'll admit that I didn't want Shepard to die, after having been through the three games and having spent so many hours allowing myself to become so immersed in the ME universe and the story in general. However, looking at the ending, as written, my Shepard would have preferred to face death alone, so as to protect his team from any further harm. I truly liked the overall mystery of the Reapers in ME1, but wish they would have kept them in that role past ME3 and had not forced the all out conflict with them, as written.  I liked the overall storyline involving the Collectors in ME2, but feel it would have been a bit better had they not been intertwined or directly connected to the Reapers.

[Iakus]

Well said.

 

TWD is probably the gold standard for a well executed bittersweet ending in a video game. That and Silent Hill 2 are the two games that stand out for me as having bittersweet endings that were as well written and executed as anything done on film.

TWD is one of exactly two games I've played which touted player choice and managed such a bittersweet ending well (the other being Planescape: Torment).  It probably helped that TWD broadcast the likely outcome starting at the halfway point, and P:T had finding a way to die being the goal of The Nameless One from the very start.

 

 

 

While there is a vocal minority that is unwilling to accept any ending where the protagonist dies, Shepard dying wasn't responsible for the ending backlash. Take The Walking Dead, a game that released the same year as ME3, as an example. For every person who bashed Telltale for

Spoiler

killing Lee

, there were probably 100 other fans raving about what an amazing game it was, or talking positively about their emotional reaction to the ending.

 

Again, it's not the death that I think is the problem, it's the lack of choice in the matter.  There was no backlash to the Ultimate Sacrifice ending in DAO that I'm aware of.  It's very, very hard to make an effective "Your choices matter.  Now here's the part where your character has to die"

[dreamgazer]

[Khemikael]

Open you eyes people, choices don't matter in Telltales' TWD. This is so obvious you're on rails, You're even driving a train!

[Valmar]

I think its not so much that the choices mattered but rather they FELT like they mattered.

 

I experienced this in my playthrough of TWD and The Wolf Amongst Us (). They did a good job of making my choices feel like they actually mattered, even if they ultimately didn't. I only notice how little my choices mattered when I played multiple runs making different choices. A bit disappointing, to be sure, but they still managed to make it feel like it meant something the first time around. The illusion of choice was well played, imo.

 

Though that was just my personal experience.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think its not so much that the choices mattered but rather they FELT like they mattered.

 

I experienced this in my playthrough of TWD and The Wolf Amongst Us ( ). They did a good job of making my choices feel like they actually mattered, even if they ultimately didn't. I only notice how little my choices mattered when I played multiple runs making different choices. A bit disappointing, to be sure, but they still managed to make it feel like it meant something the first time around. The illusion of choice was well played, imo.

 

Though that was just my personal experience.

 

Generally my complaint about choice in ME is not so much that it's railroaded at parts, which is fine, but that the railroading is poorly justified, the most blatant example being forced to work for Cerberus in ME2. The trick I think is hiding the rails and presenting that illusion of choice. TWD s1, for the most part, at least until episode 5, does a decent job at hiding those tracks. It's easy to notice the game's linearity with a flowchart or after a couple of playthroughs; but during the first game or two it's something that's hard to spot.

[Reorte]

The trick I think is hiding the rails and presenting that illusion of choice.

Definitely so. Suspension of disbelief is often talked about in relation to plots and settings and so on but with RPGs it also applies to choices too. You just need enough limited choice, and to have them with options not too far from whatever you've decided that your character is, to keep the momentum going.

[Iakus]

Definitely so. Suspension of disbelief is often talked about in relation to plots and settings and so on but with RPGs it also applies to choices too. You just need enough limited choice, and to have them with options not too far from whatever you've decided that your character is, to keep the momentum going.

Definitely.

 

The best way to railroad is to guide the player down a path they'd want to take anyway.

[dreamgazer]

Definitely.

 

The best way to railroad is to guide the player down a path they'd want to take anyway.

 

It's also the way towards safe, bloodless storytelling and bland moral dilemmas.

[Iakus]

It's also the way towards safe, bloodless storytelling and bland moral dilemmas.

 

As TWD shows.

 

Oh, wait...

[Ryzaki]

Open you eyes people, choices don't matter in Telltales' TWD. This is so obvious you're on rails, You're even driving a train!

 

True enough but they make the ride enjoyable enough that I don't mind the illusion.

ME3 failed at that.

[dreamgazer]

As TWD shows.
 
Oh, wait...

The Walking Dead's first season works precisely because it goes against your assertion, since I heavily doubt many people wanted it to go down the path it ultimately did.

[Arcian]

Some of you really need to stop acting like Bioware murderd your family. It's a damned game.

Listen to this human, he understands. You're not allowed to be passionate about a game, and you're especially not allowed to be upset about or criticize a game that is poorly made! Just be happy you even got something in the first place, because you're obviously the person who benefitted the most from the game's release, and not the developers and publishers who made millions off their shoddy work! Stop feeling entitled! You're just a lowly consumer, you have no rights!

[Iakus]

The Walking Dead's first season works precisely because it goes against your assertion, since I heavily doubt many people wanted it to go down the path it ultimately did.

 

It's not ideal, no.  But it was clear at least since Episode 3 that death was a very real possibility.  And the final episode made it abundantly clear what was going to happen.  Lee was never the priority.  Clementine was.

[dreamgazer]

It's not ideal, no.  But it was clear at least since Episode 3 that death was a very real possibility.  And the final episode made it abundantly clear what was going to happen.  Lee was never the priority.  Clementine was.

All well and good, but the point still stands.

It's not the path the audience wanted to take, and it's poignant because of that.