164 réponses à ce sujet

[Slogbarg]

I mean the female City Elf origin is kind of bleh. You could have been anything. You could have been a cutpurse on the run. You could have been the leader of a merc group, or a grunt in a merc group or I dunno something exciting or interesting.

 

Intead what are you? A girl about to get married who's kidnapped and threatened with rape.

 

Now I get that as the MC you get yourself out of that situation, but think about it: if you were a dude would you be put in that situation in the first place?

 

You can say "Hey, ******, male city elves have their wedding ruined too." Yes, but male city elves aren't dragged off to some dude's castle with the intent of a night's worth of molestation. I don't think anyone can imagine their male city elves would ever be put into that kind of demeaning situation.

 

Look if it were done right I would have no problem with my male character being dragged off to some guy's rape dungeon but I do have to admit that it probably would not have felt right in the scene as it was, but that said it has nothing to do with Misogyny, not everything in a video game should be equal between the sexes and it is good that there is some variation in the way things play out depending on what gender you play.

[Slogbarg]

  Well police have been involved on several occasions, so yeah. Pretty much confirmed. 

 

So what were the findings and do you have a link?

[Yinello]

The fact that so many of you speak so harshly over a woman who really is just giving her opinion about games just only goes to prove her point that the gaming community has a problem. I can't count the amount of people I have seen who just want to silence her for good for saying something that makes them uncomfortable. If people who disagreed had just ignored her from day one, she would never have become so big. The irony is delicious.

 

I have seen threads about serial killers that have less vitriol than opinions about Anita. But sure, keep pretending she's the bigger evil while I eat my popcorn and wait for the thread to be locked.

[TEWR]

This is hardly anything new. Despite all the good DA might do representation wise in terms of race and gender, it also has a lot of problematic elements. Go ahead and look to see how often rape is used for women in the series to give them some sort of backstory and motive.

 

Then look at how a series that has a matriarchal institution (the Chantry), which has female heroines (Andraste) is seemingly sexist as well in its societal functions. Where did this spring from? Sexism doesn't just happen. It's bred into society. 

 

It'd be interesting if it was patriarchy disguised as a matriarchy, but I don't think Bioware thought that one through.

 

There's also the can of worms that is the lack of a Vivienne romance (with what details we know about the game, but her story arc might have something more to it that we'll see). Black women don't really get as much representation as they deserve.

 

There's also how despite the fact that Elven culture takes from four distinct cultures (Native American, African, Gaelic/Celtic tribes, Romani) they're depicted as being white 99% of the time.

 

Which is just slapping whiteness on the struggles PoC faced and continue to face.

[Muspade]

Cheery picking evidence is not evidence of anything.

That's all.

This is hardly anything new. Despite all the good DA might do, it also has a lot of problematic elements. Go ahead and look to see how often rape is used for women in the series to give them some sort of backstory and motive.

 

Then look at how a series that has a matriarchal institution (the Chantry), which has female heroines (Andraste) is seemingly sexist as well in its societal functions. Where did this spring from? Sexism doesn't just happen. It's bred into society. 

 

It'd be interesting if it was patriarchy disguised as a matriarchy, but I don't think Bioware thought that one through.

If you try hard enough, you can make most things seem sexist. 

[LadyMalstroem]

I think the Dragon Age devs are reasonable adults who welcome critique like this, even when they might not agree with it. There's a huge difference between pointing out a problematic scene in a game and calling an entire game sexist.

There's something to be said about how frequently female characters, in games or otherwise, are threatened with or subjected to sexual violence, as a part of their back story. Male characters don't get the same kind of treatment. If nothing else, having that trope pointed out to you might make one think twice before using it over and over again.

[Roamingmachine]

I think her points would be better received if she didn't continually misinform gamers, misrepresent video games, and repeatedly paint females as the helpless victims especially in equal opportunity scenarios. She's discrediting herself and the feminist/female/gaming community as a whole by continually projecting women as helpless victims. 

This. A thousand times this. The battle for actual social equality is not fought by being belligerent and certainly by not making sweeping, inherently inaccurate condemnations. That will just make people who were otherwise neutral on the issue close ranks and become deaf to the message. You win the fight by promoting a positive image where you can. You can never change a bigots mind, but normal people tend to follow a live-and-let-live mentality so once they are shown that, for example, women can be much more than the 'weaker sex' and it doesn't affect their day-to-day life one bit, they accept it. 

[Yinello]

So what were the findings and do you have a link?

 

The sad truth is that the police will most likely not find the culprit because they are often undereducated and undermanned for this kind of job. Not to mention people tend to think it's not a big deal, even when the location involves people being allowed to hold concealed fire weapons after a shooting threat was made. A lot of death threats that involve celebrities tend to also lack proper closure.

[JediHealerCosmin]

Never actualy got any sexist vibe from DA games so far.

 

Racism towards elves and dwarves certainly, but not sexist.

[Yinello]

I think the Dragon Age devs are reasonable adults who welcome critique like this, even when they might not agree with it. There's a huge difference between pointing out a problematic scene in a game and calling an entire game sexist.

There's something to be said about how frequently female characters, in games or otherwise, are threatened with or subjected to sexual violence, as a part of their back story. Male characters don't get the same kind of treatment. If nothing else, having that trope pointed out to you might make one think twice before using it over and over again.

 

If I could, I'd copy this all over the forum. 

[Muspade]

If I could, I'd copy this all over the forum. 

Make it your signature.

[TEWR]

Cheery picking evidence is not evidence of anything.

That's all.

If you try hard enough, you can make most things seem sexist. 

 

That's probably because we've absorbed a lot of **** that's popular in the media and fail to question whether it is or is not right, and so when it's done people don't bat an eyelash until it's called out.

 

Look I'm not saying Bioware isn't doing good. It's just that a lot of people put them on pedestals and refuse to see the cracks in the foundation. Being aware of their shortcomings means they can address them going forward, one could hope.

 

Ignoring them is just pointless and silly.

[Ieldra]

I think her points would be better received if she didn't continually misinform gamers, misrepresent video games, and repeatedly paint females as the helpless victims especially in equal opportunity scenarios. She's discrediting herself and the feminist/female/gaming community as a whole by continually projecting women as the helpless victim. 

Indeed. Nobody in their right mind would deny that there are real issues with women's portrayal in games, but choosing this particular example from DAO does nothing but damage her credibility.

 

I also don't agree that using a rape scenario is problematic just because it can't happen the same way to a man. Women and men are quite unequal in this regard and it would be intellectually dishonest to gloss over that fact. Also, that you can get out on your own and take your revenge is a message on its own, and it's quite at odds with the accusations. 

 

As for "using rape threats against women over and over again": we have six origins, and one of them has it, and it's not as if the situation is contrived to have it. In fact, given the scenario and the people involved in it, it would be rather more suprising if it wasn't there.

[Muspade]

That's probably because we've absorbed a lot of **** that's popular in the media and fail to question whether it is or is not right, and so when it's done people don't bat an eyelash until it's called out.

As I said. If you try hard enough.

[Burricho]

I'm just gonna leave this here and pretty much say or do nothing else while the thread is still relatively civil. I know how hot this topic can get.

 

I don't speak for Sarkeesian and I never would, and I don't know her. But I'm not convinced that she was slamming the entirety of Dragon Age: Origins by posting that clip in her video. I think it's a good possibility that if she is any kind of gamer at all, she loves DA:O but just hates the female City Elf origin.

 

I mean the female City Elf origin is kind of bleh. You could have been anything. You could have been a cutpurse on the run. You could have been the leader of a merc group, or a grunt in a merc group or I dunno something exciting or interesting.

 

Intead what are you? A girl about to get married who's kidnapped and threatened with rape.

 

Now I get that as the MC you get yourself out of that situation, but think about it: if you were a dude would you be put in that situation in the first place?

 

You can say "Hey, ******, male city elves have their wedding ruined too." Yes, but male city elves aren't dragged off to some dude's castle with the intent of a night's worth of molestation. I don't think anyone can imagine their male city elves would ever be put into that kind of demeaning situation.

 

And it's a shame because like I said, the female City elf could have an interesting, eclectic origin that had nothing to do with what was going on between her legs and what others wanted to do with it. Plus there'd actually be a reason for the character having martial ability other than "Oh, you're a badass but you happen to be getting married so shush about it"

 

Hell, that Grey Warden recruit rogue (I forget his name now, Daved? Daveth? Something like that) has a far more interesting Origin than the female City elf AND HE LIVED IN THE SAME CITY. 

 

Compare the female City elf origin to the female Dalish elf Origin. The Dalish elf doesn't have anything happen to her that wouldn't have happened to a dude (or rather, the dude elf doesn't NOT go through anything the female elf does). Imagine how much it would have sucked if the Dalish female elf was... I dunno.... kidnapped by the Dark Spawn so they could use her for breeding purposes. Well maybe that would have been more interesting cuz Darkspawn.

 

Now I don't know if that was Sarkeesian's reasoning for putting that DA:O clip in there, nor do I know if she feels the same way I do about Origins as a whole. But that's my two cents anyway.

So what, because some guy is a rapist that's sexist? Is somebody having the intent to commit rape sexist? Really?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd rather avoid this discussion but I'll just point this out: There are a few games out there that over-sexualize women (some are even made by women; but that's beside the point.) There is a load of games out there however that generalize men as being nothing more than punching bags, and objects to be manipulated in various forms of death. Do people bring that subject up at all? No, death in video games sells. Anyways /end-rant... Hope this stays civil.

I have to admit, it is kind of sad that whenever a man is for example killed brutally in a game nobody bats an eye but if a woman is killed in the same way it becomes a talked about issue. 

[twizbuck]

Saw this and the gamergate crap.

 

Rolled my eyes.

 

Moved on with life.

[JerZey CJ]

Saw this and the gamergate crap.

 

Rolled my eyes.

 

Moved on with life.

Apparently not, since you posted.

[9TailsFox]

can someone post the Star Trek "in before the lockdown" picture...

 

It should be here.....

[Yinello]

So what, because some guy is a rapist that's sexist? Is somebody having the intent to commit rape sexist? Really?

 

It is sexism if you think a certain situation (eg rape) could only happen to one gender.

[Burricho]

2. IF they did then it is there breach of ethics not hers, but the sexism of this movement is focusing things on women and started by punishing a woman for her personal life.

So... it's OKif she slept with someone just to get a good review? No breach of ethics? Just her 'personal life'?

[Semyaza82]

But did anything ever come of her "getting the police involved?" Was there ever a follow up to that? I remember seeing those tweets, but never what resulted.

   I think the fact she wasn't arrested for making false police reports and hoax threats (in regard to the Utah State talk she had to cancel) pretty much shows that no, she wasn't making it all up. Plus read through the comments section of any youtube video about her - they're generally filled with pretty vile abuse directed at her.

 

I think her points would be better received if she didn't continually misinform gamers, misrepresent video games, and repeatedly paint females as the helpless victims especially in equal opportunity scenarios. She's discrediting herself and the feminist/female/gaming community as a whole by continually projecting women as the helpless victim. 

   Having watched her entire series on gaming tropes I really don't think she does misinform gamers. Do I agree with her on everything? No. Does that make her a liar? No, just someone with a different opinion. And I really don't think she 'projects women as helpless victims' at all.

   And with that I'm out - even if there is no incoming lock incoming kind of feel this is going nowhere as a discussion. So leaving while its still civil

[BloodyTalon]

So what, because some guy is a rapist that's sexist? Is somebody having the intent to commit rape sexist? Really?

Makes it sound more like a mentel issue when you put it that way.

[Star fury]

The fact that so many of you speak so harshly over a woman who really is just giving her opinion about games just only goes to prove her point that the gaming community has a problem. I can't count the amount of people I have seen who just want to silence her for good for saying something that makes them uncomfortable. If people who disagreed had just ignored her from day one, she would never have become so big. The irony is delicious.

I have seen threads about serial killers that have less vitriol than opinions about Anita. But sure, keep pretending she's the bigger evil while I eat my popcorn and wait for the thread to be locked.

People are calmly pointing out flaws in her videos including bias, cherry picking evidence and lies. Can you defend why somebody would lie pursuing a noble cause? She now even attacks Bioware which is a beacon of political correctness.

Nobody is portraying her as a bigger evil or silencing her, no need of using strawman arguments.

[Yinello]

The review she supposedly slept for doesn't exist, can we please move on from this.