75 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Much has been made of having elves or dwarves or ox-people as the Heralds of Andraste and what this means for a, mostly, human centric religion.

And yet, what about the men? One month to go and I don't believe anyone has raised this question.

Andrastianism. is a female-oriented religion. Women are the purer sex for the Maker's chosen was female. Meanwhile, all men are judged by Maferath's jealousy and betrayal. Only women can be clerics, only women can be Divine.

So, what will it mean if Andraste chose a man as her Herald?

 

Edit: damn it, typo in the title. Hate when it happens.

[Taki17]

I don't think it matters much. Most templars and seekers are also males, and they are just as respected in the Chantry as any revered mother.

[raging_monkey]

Well if the title is to be true it would definatly upset the status qou(granted its already on its arse).

It could mean that all mortals are judged equally in the eyes of andraste and to a extent the maker if he exists and the gender roles are in fact a creation/bias of man so people in power can have lasting control of the masses.

[Dubya75]

Andraste decided it is time for men to get some love too.

[Qunari Ardat-Yakshi]

Yes....yes she did.

[MisterJB]

Only the Orlesian Chantry is female oriented. Andrastian religions themselves aren't necessarily. And it isn't in Tevinter. All of Tevinter's other flaws aside, their Chantry was originally devout and well meaning, just like anywhere else. The original Disciple of Andraste had males as well (like the Guardian). Archon Hessarian was also considered an early leader of the chantry.

 

Considering how the Tevinter Chantry will claim Andraste was a mage rather than the Maker's chosen, I'd be hesitant in calling it "Andrastianism".

Regardless, yes the Imperial Chantry has men (mages really) as clerics. But we will be dealing solely with the Orlesian Chantry and all it's derivations.

[MisterJB]

Why is that against Andrastianism? Andraste never condemned mages. She said it was a gift in the Chant of Light (which predates the Chantry). "Foul and corrupt are they, who have taken his gift and turned it against his children." She merely warned that magic must be used for good of others. Not as a means of power. "Magic exists to serve man. Never to rule over him."

 

Her main job was slave rebellion. She was speaking more against oppression and inequality -- and in her day, it was the magisters who had everyone under their boots. 

 

I'm not going to argue that with you because we have no idea just what Andraste precisely wanted. But, the Imperial Chantry refuses to divine aspects of Andraste thereby making them, arguably, part of the faith of the Maker but not Andrastianism itself.

[helpthisguyplease]

It makes me wonder what is the big deal she was rebel slave that had a lot of success against the most powerful nation of that time why did it became a religion?

People forget that she failed to destroy that nation and the rebelion in the end did failed why would people think she is herald of Andraste. For example there were 3 people with almost slave like status in imperial China that become emperors but nobody worshiped them as gods.

[Sifr]

Considering how the Tevinter Chantry will claim Andraste was a mage rather than the Maker's chosen, I'd be hesitant in calling it "Andrastianism".

 

I don't recall hearing any Tevinters claim that Andraste was a mage?

 

Why is that against Andrastianism? Andraste never condemned mages. She said it was a gift in the Chant of Light (which predates the Chantry). "Foul and corrupt are they, who have taken his gift and turned it against his children." She merely warned that magic must be used for good of others. Not as a means of power. "Magic exists to serve man. Never to rule over him."

 

If she was a mage herself, she was just telling people to use it right and stop being asshats. Her main job was slave rebellion. She was speaking more against oppression and inequality -- and in her day, it was the magisters who had everyone under their boots. 

 

That's also my take on that oft-quoted phrase, that she was just repeating the wise words of her Uncle Ben regarding power and responsibility!

 

It's weird that we've never had anyone bring this interpretation up once in any of the games yet, even the rebel mages who you think would argue such a positive interpretation against the dogmatic "Mages = Evil" view adopted by the Chantry?

 

The closest we've gotten is Malcolm Hawke's mantra that "Magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base", but that seems to be more of something he came up on his own, rather than his take on that line from the Chant of Light?

 

[themageguy]

Malcolm Hawke, would love to read a novel about him, him escaping the circle and meeting Miss Amell

[AzukiJin]

This is why you can deny this if you have the mark and say you are not a herald it's just silly chantry folks that says so.

[Applepie_Svk]

don´t tell that to tropes VS woman supporters, because they will hunt you for heresy...

 

 

 

[DarthLaxian]

Much has been made of having elves or dwarves or ox-people as the Heralds of Andraste and what this means for a, mostly, human centric religion.

And yet, what about the men? One month to go and I don't believe anyone has raised this question.

Andrastianism. is a female-oriented religion. Women are the purer sex for the Maker's chosen was female. Meanwhile, all men are judged by Maferath's jealousy and betrayal. Only women can be clerics, only women can be Divine.

So, what will it mean if Andraste chose a man as her Herald?

 

Edit: damn it, typo in the title. Hate when it happens.

 

And that's why - at least on the sexism issue - the Black Chantry is the better alternative (!)...they allow men (though they still allow women!) - even mages (!) - to serve as priests (the black divine normally is a mage though as far as I remember)

 

What does it mean? - Nothing ATM, because we don't even know if it is true (it's just what people start to call the PC)...yes, there is supposedly a female figure appearing after the explosion that destroys the peace-summit...but that could be anything, even a (desire) demon...but that alone does not prove anything on its own!

 

greetings LAX

ps: That sexism (I don't tollerate it in RL - neither against women, nor against men (yes, there's sexism against men, too - family court for example or in the US: the draft (!)) is one more thing why I want the chantry GONE!

[EmperorSahlertz]

You're focusing too much on Tevinter. I only use them as one example of how different beliefs can be. They are one denomination. As is Orlais. In the early years, Andrastianism had different factions with their own interpretations. These rules about women leaders and how exactly to treat mages didn't come until later.

 

My point though is if you ARE in fact a herald of Andraste, it doesn't matter what Orlais thinks. They don't have the rights to her. They have even ruined their own scriptures deliberately and deleted Shartan from the Chant of Light. People who can't even be responsible enough with their own sacred documents can't be trusted as authorities.

 

As for the rest, I didn't know anyone gave her divine aspects. She's called the prophet of the Maker. Not divine herself.

The Chantry didn't exactly "ruin" their scriptures, as if it was an accident. They deliberately edited Shartan out. After what the Elves ahd done to Orlais, they did not wish to further venerate Elven heroes.

 

Andraste is said to have ascended after her death, and now sits by the Maker's side. That is the divine aspect of Andraste.

[MisterJB]

(the black divine normally is a mage though as far as I remember)

Always. Non-mages aren't allowed to hold position of authority in Tevinter.

[10K]

The Chantry's religion is not centered around women. It seems only the Andrastian Chantry prefers woman in head positions. But other denominations like the Imperial Chantry, which is based in Tevinter follow older beliefs. An example is Haven. The villagers in Haven followed older traditions which is why they had a male priest as head of their Chantry instead of a female. It looks as if it's based on the specific denomination of each Chantry and whether or not they follow new or old traditions.   

[teenparty]

It makes me wonder what is the big deal she was rebel slave that had a lot of success against the most powerful nation of that time why did it became a religion?

People forget that she failed to destroy that nation and the rebelion in the end did failed why would people think she is herald of Andraste. For example there were 3 people with almost slave like status in imperial China that become emperors but nobody worshiped them as gods.

In the real world there are more Christians than Muslim, despite the fact that Muhammed was a great political leader and Jesus was merely a preacher with a small band of followers.

[MisterJB]

We will mostly deal with the Orlesian version of the Andrastian Faith, though.

[10K]

We will mostly deal with the Orlesian version of the Andrastian Faith, though.

Yes, but then again a herald is basically just a messenger; someone whom is a sign of something that is to come. Your gender shouldn't create conflict given the title has little to do with the Chantry itself. In essence the Inquisitor is only a sign, and who's to say who Andraste would send to be her messenger of that sign.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

That's still ruining it.

 

Generally when a religion documents the history of it's movement, it doesn't edit things out for the sake of present and unrelated political realities. 

History books still remember Shartan. The religion can choose wether or not to venerate him.

 

It didn't edit out the part where Shartan aided Andraste. They edited out the Canticle of Shartan (Which is basically a song of praise). It is ENTIRELY the religion's prerogative to choose not to venerate Shartan.