75 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

That doesn't mean your options have to be. 

 

You could probably be traditionally Orlesian, you could be more freewheeling and individualistic (like Leliana.. who believes the Maker never left and loves everyone), or something else. They've never bundled all Andrastian belief under the umbrella of the Orlesian Chantry before. So I don't know why they would now.

 

Besides that, the original Inquisition was it's own seperate Andrastian faction itself back in the day. It had nothing to do with Orlais either.

I wasn't saying that. Merely wondering the reactions of the Chantry when presented with a male Herald. Condemnations, supression, etc.

[Dark Helmet]

That's still ruining it.

 

Generally when a religion documents the history of it's movement, it doesn't edit things out for the sake of present and unrelated political realities. 

 

I... you might want to look.... Never mind.

[LeBurns]

Well ... just because ... of reasons.

 

Seriously I felt playing a non-Dunmer in Morrowind felt odd, or a non-Nord in Skyrim, based on where those MQ stories led.  Sometimes the freedom the game devs gives us for our characters trumps what 'would make the most sense' in the position the PC plays in the game, and they make if fit ... because of reasons.  In those situations I generally just play what does make sense to me in following the story.

 

So in DA:I playing a female human would make a lot of sense.  Even an elf wouldn't be a bad fit based on Andraste's history.  So I'm sure I'll play those most often, just like in Morrowind most my characters were Dunmers and in Skyrim mostly Nords.

[X Equestris]

One of the Chantry's greatest heroes was Emperor Drakon. Many of Andraste's disciples were male. I don't think there would be any particularly large negative reaction to a male Herald, certainly nowhere near the reaction a qunari Herald would get.

[helpthisguyplease]

In the real world there are more Christians than Muslim, despite the fact that Muhammed was a great political leader and Jesus was merely a preacher with a small band of followers.

Well I do not know if that is not because one religion is older then the other and also the 2 religions are quite similar. In game term there like Tevinter chantry and the Orleasian one.

[Celtic Latino]

I believe that could be a reason the Chantry deems the Inquisition heretical. If you think about it, male humans as well as elves/dwarves/qunari of either gender also don't fit, making the majority of PC race/gender choices cause for the Chantry to be skeptical right off the bat. And with female humans, I could see the Chantry being so devout, believing the Maker turned away, that anyone claiming affiliation with Andraste would be blasphemous. (Possibly even if Andraste returned herself they'd assume she was either a devious spirit or a false prophet).

[Dean_the_Young]

I wasn't saying that. Merely wondering the reactions of the Chantry when presented with a male Herald. Condemnations, supression, etc.

 

Considering how the devs have never made the Chantry's implicit sexism a theme of any particular weight or note, I will be considerably surprised if the subject is addressed at all.

 

I imagine that someone, somewhere, somewhen would read this and roll their eyes and dismiss it as a man-think of irrelevance.

[The Ascendant]

Men, while being unfairly judged for Maferath's 'betrayal', don't seem to have it rough in the Chantry. So they can't become high ranking priests? Big deal. Sebastian and Genitivi were only a brothers and seemed rather content. A large majority of Templars and Seekers are males and they are never discriminated against or persecuted. So let women rule religious matters. It's not like the rest of Thedas is exactly friendly to the opposite sex, e.g. Dwarves, Qunari, Orlais.

[Mistic]

I'm not going to argue that with you because we have no idea just what Andraste precisely wanted. But, the Imperial Chantry refuses to divine aspects of Andraste thereby making them, arguably, part of the faith of the Maker but not Andrastianism itself.

 

But it can be argued, because we have official sources. This is what World of Thedas says in page 123: "Hessarian declared the Maker the one true god, and Andrastianism the religion of the Imperium". In fact, it's one of the few mentions of the term "Andrastianism" in official lore, so yes, they are Andrastian.

 

The lore, including WoT, prefers the term "Chantry" to talk about this religion. But does that term require accepting the divine aspects of Andraste? Let's check the four core principles of the Chantry, according to WoT: "III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored".

 

It doesn't say that she couldn't be a mage, or that she has to be worhipped, just "remembered and honroed", something that the Imperial Chantry does. Saying otherwise is a case of the No True Scotsman fallacy, and very similar to real religious discussions; for example, the nature of Christ that was debated by early Christians. Most Christians now follow the Chalcedonian definition, but there are others: Arians, Nestorians, Miaphysites, etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

But it can be argued, because we have official sources. This is what World of Thedas says in page 123: "Hessarian declared the Maker the one true god, and Andrastianism the religion of the Imperium". In fact, it's one of the few mentions of the term "Andrastianism" in official lore, so yes, they are Andrastian.

 

The lore, including WoT, prefers the term "Chantry" to talk about this religion. But does that term require accepting the divine aspects of Andraste? Let's check the four core principles of the Chantry, according to WoT: "III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored".

 

It doesn't say that she couldn't be a mage, or that she has to be worhipped, just "remembered and honroed", something that the Imperial Chantry does. Saying otherwise is a case of the No True Scotsman fallacy, and very similar to real religious discussions; for example, the nature of Christ that was debated by early Christians. Most Christians now follow the Chalcedonian definition, but there are others: Arians, Nestorians, Miaphysites, etc.

Whoa, deja vu. Didn't you and I have a similar back and forth about the exact nature of what constituted Andrastianism a few months ago? And that I wasn't aware that there was an in-universe definition for what Andrastianism was?

 

I get JB's point that the Black and White Chantries are not synymous in doctrine, but by definition they both are Andrastian.

[MisterJB]

But it can be argued, because we have official sources.

 

I was actually saying that what couldn't be argued was what Andraste precisely wished to accomplish or meant by her words.

 

 

 

This is what World of Thedas says in page 123: "Hessarian declared the Maker the one true god, and Andrastianism the religion of the Imperium". In fact, it's one of the few mentions of the term "Andrastianism" in official lore, so yes, they are Andrastian.

 

The lore, including WoT, prefers the term "Chantry" to talk about this religion. But does that term require accepting the divine aspects of Andraste? Let's check the four core principles of the Chantry, according to WoT: "III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored".

But that quote itself claims that one of the four core principles of the faith is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker and a prophet. If the Imperial Chantry mantains that Andraste was a mage rather than believing that the Maker intervened on her behalf in requested, then we can say that it worships the same god as the Orlesian Chantry, the Maker, but it denies Andraste hence why it's not Andrastianism.

 

It is possible, if not likely, that the religion looked different in the times of Hessarian. Take into account that, according to WoT, many amidst the mage population refused to convert to a god that "maligned magic" whereas today, Imperial Chantry holds that being born with magic is being favored in the eyes of the Maker.

 

[karushna5]

I doubt it will be much of an issue either way. I have never seen a man disrespected for being a man in Dragon Age by any person of the Chantry. Templars, seekers, and even people like Sebastian join the chantry in other roles and they never treat them as lesser people even if they may be lower rank. I doubt people will notice as gender disparities in Thedas don't really exist to the same extent as our world.

[Mistic]

Whoa, deja vu. Didn't you and I have a similar back and forth about the exact nature of what constituted Andrastianism a few months ago? And that I wasn't aware that there was an in-universe definition for what Andrastianism was?

 

Hahaha, yes, we did Now it's easier for me to find the quotes I need for the discussion.

 

But that quote itself claims that one of the four core principles of the faith is that Andraste was the bride of the Maker and a prophet. If the Imperial Chantry mantains that Andraste was a mage rather than believing that the Maker intervened on her behalf in requested, then we can say that it worships the same god as the Orlesian Chantry, the Maker, but it denies Andraste hence why it's not Andrastianism.

 

You are claiming things that are not part of the lore. So far, there's no thing about Tevinter's interpretation that says that Andraste couldn't be both a mage and the bride of the Maker (if it appears in DA:I I will shut up, bot not now). In fact, they are said by WoT to consider their country a "Holy Land" and they celebrate the Visitations, when "Blessed Andraste" appeared in dreams to many mages as she crossed the Fade. If that's not remembering and honoring her, I don't know what it is.

[MisterJB]

On the topic, the wiki says this:
 

"While the Chantry of Orlais believes that Andraste was divine, and was taken up to stand beside the Maker when she died, the Imperial Chantry maintains she was just a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent, even if she is a symbol of hope. While the Imperial Chantry still respects and honors Andraste considerably, they forbid the worship of her that is practiced in the Orlesian Chantry and instead focus only on worshiping the Maker."

 

However, since I can't find the source for this, I hesitate in using  it as evidence.

[The Hierophant]

If the writers remembered that piece of lore then we might see some comments towards the pc's gender. The most devout Chantry officials might consider a man bearing the title of HoA as sacrilege. Especially after Tevinter flipped off the Chantry by electing their Black Divine who's both a man and a mage.

[MisterJB]

You are claiming things that are not part of the lore. So far, there's no thing about Tevinter's interpretation that says that Andraste couldn't be both a mage and the bride of the Maker (if it appears in DA:I I will shut up, bot not now).

 

True but it is a logical conclusion. If they are already denying the Maker's involvement in the disasters that are said to have struck Tevinter during Andraste's March, it is only logical they also deny the connection to the Maker that, according to the Orlesian Chantry, granted Andraste her powers in the first place.

 

 

In fact, they are said by WoT to consider their country a "Holy Land" and they celebrate the Visitations, when "Blessed Andraste" appeared in dreams to many mages as she crossed the Fade. If that's not remembering and honoring her, I don't know what it is.

But simply remembering and honoring and Andraste is not sufficient to be an Andrastian.

I won't use the quote I used in my previous post as evidence because I can't find a source but does give a good example of how a figure can be respected and honored in a religion while still not being venerated.

 

I am curious just how the Tevinter Chant looks like.

I imagine they'd justify Andraste's March as a way of punishing the ancient Magisters who were so different from the Magisters of today who don't use blood magic at all, we swear.
 

[Br3admax]

On the topic, the wiki says this:
 

"While the Chantry of Orlais believes that Andraste was divine, and was taken up to stand beside the Maker when she died, the Imperial Chantry maintains she was just a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent, even if she is a symbol of hope. While the Imperial Chantry still respects and honors Andraste considerably, they forbid the worship of her that is practiced in the Orlesian Chantry and instead focus only on worshiping the Maker."

 

However, since I can't find the source for this, I hesitate in using  it as evidence.

The wiki sources it as TME pg 108. 

[herkles]

One being male and being called the herald of Andraste is fine. I suspect one can easily play a pro-chantry person, an anti-chantry person and everything in between.

 

I am curious just how the Tevinter Chant looks like.

I imagine they'd justify Andraste's March as a way of punishing the ancient Magisters who were so different from the Magisters of today who don't use blood magic at all, we swear.
 

and thus andraste said

slavery is awesome

 

 

After all tevinter is a slave owning empire; and they follow the imperial chantry. so to the imperial chantry, andraste must have been in support of slavery.

 

Anyways the four principals of the Chantry's faith

 

I. Magic is a corrupting influence in the world.

II. Humankind's sin of pride destroyed the Golden City and created the darkspawn, terrible embodiments of that sin.

III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored.

IV. Humankind has sinned and must seek penance to earn the Maker's forgiveness. When all people unite to praise the Maker, he will return to the world and make it a paradise.

[The Baconer]

On the topic, the wiki says this:
 

"While the Chantry of Orlais believes that Andraste was divine, and was taken up to stand beside the Maker when she died, the Imperial Chantry maintains she was just a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent, even if she is a symbol of hope. While the Imperial Chantry still respects and honors Andraste considerably, they forbid the worship of her that is practiced in the Orlesian Chantry and instead focus only on worshiping the Maker."

 

However, since I can't find the source for this, I hesitate in using  it as evidence.

 

I can't find anything in WoT that states veneration of Andraste is forbidden. Hessarian claimed he was a disciple of Andraste, and "declared Andrastianism the religion of the Imperium" (direct quote). Furthermore, some mages who converted during the Transfiguration claimed to have been approached by Andraste in the Fade, and forever changed in their meeting. There is a holiday celebrating these meetings that continues on to this very day. This (and the fact that she is considered a prophet) certainly implies a touch of the divine.

[Lulupab]

On the topic, the wiki says this:
 

"While the Chantry of Orlais believes that Andraste was divine, and was taken up to stand beside the Maker when she died, the Imperial Chantry maintains she was just a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent, even if she is a symbol of hope. While the Imperial Chantry still respects and honors Andraste considerably, they forbid the worship of her that is practiced in the Orlesian Chantry and instead focus only on worshiping the Maker."

 

However, since I can't find the source for this, I hesitate in using  it as evidence.

 

"3:87 Towers: After many years of argument, the Schism splits the Chantry as the Imperial Chantry within Tevinter elects their own Divine, a male mage named Valhail, at the Minrathous Cathedral. The Imperial Chantry had always taken a more moderate view on magic and argued that mages should be allowed to rule so long as blood magic remained prohibited. They also argued that Andraste was not of divine origin but rather was a mortal prophet with considerable magical talent and that her ascension to the Maker's side did not make her divine, even if she was a symbol of hope. Both these arguments did not sit well with the rest of the Chantry. As the Val Royeaux Divine Joyous II took measures to restrict the power of the Circle of Magi within Tevinter, the Imperial Chantry took action. In Minrathous, the Divine is referred to as the "Black Divine" by most, and Chantry propaganda stirs popular sentiment against Tevinter and the Circle of Magi."

 

Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 87

[DarthLaxian]

Always. Non-mages aren't allowed to hold position of authority in Tevinter.

 

That's not exactly true - and DAO confirms that (there's this armor you can find pieces off, guarded by demons - The set belonged to a Tevinter General (a non-mage!), thus a real leader and confidant of one of the magisters, who was valued so much by one of the magisters, that he cursed (and killed) the ones that had betrayed said General to become abominations and guard the pieces of the deads' armor!)...it is true, that achieving a position of power for a non-mage is much harder (no wounder, everything a mundane can do, a mage can do as well - and more, as they have magic)...firstly you need to be a free person (not to say some magisters don't value their slaves - not all of them are heartless and cruel monsters), secondly you need to catch a magisters eye and win their favour (but it's not much different in the other parts of Thedas - with the exception of the Qunari (!) - to make something of yourself (and get a position of power) you need to impress nobility (in the other countries the nobility is just not magical) or the chantry (or if you go down a darker path: impress the leader of a crime-syndicate)...so not all that different IMHO), thirdly you need to have real talent/skill (applies elsewhere too though) and lastly you need some luck (as to not encounter problems that might get you killed...like the envy of others - like said General!)

 

greetings LAX

[Lulupab]

That's not exactly true - and DAO confirms that (there's this armor you can find pieces off, guarded by demons - The set belonged to a Tevinter General (a non-mage!), thus a real leader and confidant of one of the magisters, who was valued so much by one of the magisters, that he cursed (and killed) the ones that had betrayed said General to become abominations and guard the pieces of the deads' armor!)...it is true, that achieving a position of power for a non-mage is much harder (no wounder, everything a mundane can do, a mage can do as well - and more, as they have magic)...firstly you need to be a free person (not to say some magisters don't value their slaves - not all of them are heartless and cruel monsters), secondly you need to catch a magisters eye and win their favour (but it's not much different in the other parts of Thedas - with the exception of the Qunari (!) - to make something of yourself (and get a position of power) you need to impress nobility (in the other countries the nobility is just not magical) or the chantry (or if you go down a darker path: impress the leader of a crime-syndicate)...so not all that different IMHO), thirdly you need to have real talent/skill (applies elsewhere too though) and lastly you need some luck (as to not encounter problems that might get you killed...like the envy of others - like said General!)

 

greetings LAX

 

Indeed, saying they can't hold a place of authority is wrong, they simply cannot be politicians or nobility. They can be leaders, commanders, generals etc... and these are all authority positions.

[EmperorKarino]

Much has been made of having elves or dwarves or ox-people as the Heralds of Andraste and what this means for a, mostly, human centric religion.

And yet, what about the men? One month to go and I don't believe anyone has raised this question.

Andrastianism. is a female-oriented religion. Women are the purer sex for the Maker's chosen was female. Meanwhile, all men are judged by Maferath's jealousy and betrayal. Only women can be clerics, only women can be Divine.

So, what will it mean if Andraste chose a man as her Herald?

 

Edit: damn it, typo in the title. Hate when it happens.

 

a male inquisitior is the makers way of saying its time for a change in the chantry, lol. but seriously, if you have a male inquisitor they might change some of the chantry's rules to allow males to have more roles within the chantry.