Meredith started this whole war. If we would have just killed Ander for what HE done and made him an example, all would have been right. But that crazy women was blood thirsty and she created this entire disaster.
The Templars chose to break away from the Chantry, yes, but so did the mages.
your forgetting the part where the templars broke from the chantry in order to hunt down and murder people.
You can probably blame the red lyrium idol for that. I don't think she would have tried to annul the Circle if Anders had blown up the Chantry during Act 2.
True
your forgetting the part where the templars broke from the chantry in order to hunt down and murder people.
we're talking about what started it. it's not up for debate the decision was made by lambert when he rejecting the divine abolished the nevarran accord and started hunting people down like animals.
Yes because Fiona wasn't war mongering either. it was all the Templars (sarcasm). this war wasn't started because one group pushed, this war was started because two groups both pushed until all they could do was start a war.
and at least the Kirkwall templars have an excuse "My commander went crazy from lyrium" Anders and Orsino have none.
This war was because two selfish groups only thought of themselves. and neither side thought of anyone else except for their close mindedness.
the Enchanters are as much to blame as the Knight-Commanders for this war.
your forgetting the part where the templars broke from the chantry in order to hunt down and murder people.
Others would say the Templars broke from the Chantry in order to protect people from those, who in their disregard, would harm them for the sake of their own well being.
Who has the advantage in this war? Who I think will lose its importance in the first 3 hours of the game because I think a bigger threat will appear.
Templars, in the beginning because they were a unified army with supply line, whilst the Magi were groups of scattered desperate refugee's.
it seems however that the scale of the Magi hunt has stretched templar resources thin as they continue to split their forces more and more to hunt down the magi that are scattered all over the south.
it seems slowly a network of Magi formed a proper resistance over time and are now counter attacking, severing communications and supply lines. this along with troops being in remote areas with no rest and no back up along with no clear enemy to fight (just individuals and small groups) has led to a breakdown in morale and order in some Templar controlled areas while allowing Magi resistance to take control of others.
Overall i'd think the templars still have a huge advantage but without knowing more about who the red templars are it's impossible to say if the war can result in a templar victory (without a third party intervening.) they appear to have overstretched themselves possibly to the point where they may have to abandon their war.
The Templars breaking away from chantry was heresy and direct disobedience of maker. If Templars didn't break away the chantry would have stopped the mages in any event. With Templars breaking away and splitting into factions of their own the Templars actually helped the mages, now they actually have a chance.
Others would say the Templars broke from the Chantry in order to protect people from those, who in their disregard, would harm them for the sake of their own well being.
I'm not disputing they find slaughtering people necessary, nobody thinks of themselves as bad people. doesn't change the fact that they are the aggressors.
Yes because Fiona wasn't war mongering either. it was all the Templars (sarcasm). this war wasn't started because one group pushed, this war was started because two groups both pushed until all they could do was start a war.
and at least the Kirkwall templars have an excuse "My commander went crazy from lyrium" Anders and Orsino have none.
This war was because two selfish groups only thought of themselves. and neither side thought of anyone else except for their close mindedness.
the Enchanters are as much to blame as the Knight-Commanders for this war.
this conflict had been building for over thousand years. you can go back and forth to find fault with both groups quite easily.
the fact remains the WAR started with one decision, breaking from the chantry to hunt mages that had fled.
THAT is the start of the WAR. that is the action that caused the WAR.
this conflict had been building for over thousand years. you can go back and forth to find fault with both groups quite easily.
the fact remains the WAR started with one decision, breaking from the chantry to hunt mages that had fled.
THAT is the start of the WAR. that is the action that caused the WAR.
and why did lambert make the choice to leave the chantry? oh yes because the the mage's were already voting to leave the chantry. please remember who first pushed the idea.
and why did lambert make the choice to leave the chantry? oh yes because the the mage's were already voting to leave the chantry. please remember who first pushed the idea.
the decision to LEAVE not the decision to raise an army to hunt people down and kill them. Since when is fleeing a hostile act? with the Nevarran accord torn up the templars don't even have a divine right to assert their rule. nothing in the chant bequeths them permission to murder people.
Templars are the aggressors here, I've no idea why your trying to claim otherwise. comparing, "let's run away" to "lets kill them for running away" isn't exactly an even keel. the templars aren't out to restore the circle or chantry law.
they are out to kill people in the makers name, they are junkies and zealots nothing more.
Don't forget the mage's vote. they did vote for the war pretty much.
The war had already begun at that point, it was just a matter of making it official.
And so this became another mages vs templars thread ^^;
the decision to LEAVE not the decision to raise an army to hunt people down and kill them. Since when is fleeing a hostile act? with the Nevarran accord torn up the templars don't even have a divine right to assert their rule. nothing in the chant bequeths them permission to murder people.
Templars are the aggressors here, I've no idea why your trying to claim otherwise. comparing, "let's run away" to "lets kill them for running away" isn't exactly an even keel. the templars aren't out to restore the circle or chantry law.
they are out to kill people in the makers name, they are junkies and zealots nothing more.
You are saying the Templars are the aggressors even though the mage's were pushing Lambert. the mage's pushed Lambert to his decision therefore they were the aggressors.
He wouldn't have left the Chantry if they hadn't of pushed him to that. and yes it takes two to war. but when the enchanters ran they knew what they were doing, they knew doing so would start the war. the only difference was that Lambert made it official
but he wasn't only one person who started this war. he didn't walk up to the mage's and started killing them. they broke the rules and he chased them. like he was trained to do. the war started once they both left.
Both not one. they were both aggressors. not just the Templars. and actually the Divine broke Chantry law when she stopped a Templar from carrying out his duty. which is why Lambert had ground to nullify the nevarran accord.
The war had already begun at that point, it was just a matter of making it official.
yes and both the mage's and templars are responsible for that war and both made it official. just one actually broke the treaty they sign, while the other did not.
I am not supporting the Templars, but the Mage's are in no way at all blameless for this war, i believe they are as much to blame for the action that caused the war.
Especially with certain Mage's and Templars who were war mongering. I.E Anders, Fiona, Ser Alrik, etc etc.
and more to the point, Lambert didn't want a war. Fiona and Anders did. so who is more to blame for this war? the ones actively attempting to start it or those who were trying to keep it in a stagnating peace?
You are saying the Templars are the aggressors even though the mage's were pushing Lambert. the mage's pushed Lambert to his decision therefore they were the aggressors.
He wouldn't have left the Chantry if they hadn't of pushed him to that. and yes it takes two to war. but when the enchanters ran they knew what they were doing, they knew doing so would start the war. the only difference was that Lambert made it official
but he wasn't only one person who started this war. he didn't walk up to the mage's and started killing them. they broke the rules and he chased them. like he was trained to do. the war started once they both left.
Both not one. they were both aggressors. not just the Templars. and actually the Divine broke Chantry law when she stopped a Templar from carrying out his duty. which is why Lambert had ground to nullify the nevarran accord.
yes and both the mage's and templars are responsible for that war and both made it official. just one actually broke the treaty they sign, while the other did not.
I am not supporting the Templars, but the Mage's are in no way at all blameless for this war, i believe they are as much to blame for the action that caused the war.
Especially with certain Mage's and Templars who were war mongering. I.E Anders, Fiona, Ser Alrik, etc etc.
and more to the point, Lambert didn't want a war. Fiona and Anders did. so who is more to blame for this war? the ones actively attempting to start it or those who were trying to keep it in a stagnating peace?
Who cares I am gonna make peace between both factions or I am gonna destroy them both on short I do not think any of them is right or wrong. The important thing is that I am right.
You are saying the Templars are the aggressors even though the mage's were pushing Lambert. the mage's pushed Lambert to his decision therefore they were the aggressors.
He wouldn't have left the Chantry if they hadn't of pushed him to that. and yes it takes two to war. but when the enchanters ran they knew what they were doing, they knew doing so would start the war. the only difference was that Lambert made it official
but he wasn't only one person who started this war. he didn't walk up to the mage's and started killing them. they broke the rules and he chased them. like he was trained to do. the war started once they both left.
Both not one. they were both aggressors. not just the Templars. and actually the Divine broke Chantry law when she stopped a Templar from carrying out his duty. which is why Lambert had ground to nullify the nevarran accord.
Since when is Runing away an aggressive move, last i checked Lambert was an adult not some petulant child. the only thing the mages "pushed" for was better conditions seeing as they weren't forthcoming they fled. they are guilty only of wanting freedom.
Running away is not a hostile act, Magi are guilty of many atrocities in the overall templar magi conflict (such as blowing up a chantry, attempted assassinations) as are templars with unsanctioned tranquils, murder, rape and annulling entire circles without any evidence.
that is the overall "conflict" a brewing problem that comes when you suppress peoples freedoms.
None of that started the war, it may paved the way for war. but only one act "started" the war and that was lambert's decision to butcher people.
the divine runs the chantry templars serve the divine, her word IS LAW when it comes to the chantry (it's the entire point of the schism) Lambert has no right to do anything other then follow the commands of the Divine.
he doesn't sight your claim as the reason, he's decision in the letter was based on his suspicion she was behind the rebellion and that with the circles gone the accord struck to place magi in circles no longer counted.
the decision to LEAVE not the decision to raise an army to hunt people down and kill them. Since when is fleeing a hostile act? with the Nevarran accord torn up the templars don't even have a divine right to assert their rule. nothing in the chant bequeths them permission to murder people.
Templars are the aggressors here, I've no idea why your trying to claim otherwise. comparing, "let's run away" to "lets kill them for running away" isn't exactly an even keel. the templars aren't out to restore the circle or chantry law.
they are out to kill people in the makers name, they are junkies and zealots nothing more.
You are incorrect and applying a double standard.
Lambert, in his own thoughts, described his plan as defeating the mages and restoring the Circle. Therefore, the goal of the leadership was always simply to restore order.
Did that translate perfectly well into the real world? No but the same applies to mages. For a group that was only interested in fleeing, they seem to be busy setting fire to people who look them sideway in the Hinterlands.
You are incorrect and applying a double standard.
Lambert, in his own thoughts, described his plan as defeating the mages and restoring the Circle. Therefore, the goal of the leadership was always simply to restore order.
Did that translate perfectly well into the real world? No but the same applies to mages. For a group that was only interested in fleeing, they seem to be busy setting fire to people who look them sideway in the Hinterlands.
and where is this plan? he makes no mention of it. "do the makers work, as we see fit" is what i remember.
there is no double standard running is not a hostile act. it is not an act of war. Magi were not marching on cities.
Since when is Runing away an aggressive move, last i checked Lambert was an adult not some petulant child. the only thing the mages "pushed" for was better conditions seeing as they weren't forthcoming they fled. they are guilty only of wanting freedom.
Running away is not a hostile act, Magi are guilty of many atrocities in the overall templar magi conflict (such as blowing up a chantry, attempted assassinations) as are templars with unsanctioned tranquils, murder, rape and annulling entire circles without any evidence.
that is the overall "conflict" a brewing problem that comes when you suppress peoples freedoms.
None of that started the war, it may paved the way for war. but only one act "started" the war and that was lambert's decision to butcher people.
the divine runs the chantry templars serve the divine, her word IS LAW when it comes to the chantry (it's the entire point of the schism) Lambert has no right to do anything other then follow the commands of the Divine.
the enchanter only ran when they were out matched, like any military force would. the entire resolutionist group wanted war. and they pushed for war. While the Lambert didn't.
and anyway, he again only left the Chantry when the Divine and the Mage's broke the Nevarran Accord. which is what actually started the war, since the Nevarran accord was the peace agreement the Inquisition the Chantry and the Magi sign to broker peace. so once they broke the terms they started war.
Seriously. You say they didn't start the war because they didn't officially leave even though they did still rebel by leaving and started the war by doing so. so if you want to talk about who Officially started the war it would be the mage's who broke the terms of the treaty.
and where is this plan? he makes no mention of it. "do the makers work, as we see fit" is what i remember.
there is no double standard running is not a hostile act. it is not an act of war. Magi were not marching on cities.
Asunder, page 413:
"Soon, he would be a hero, the mages would be put back in their place."
Even if the mages were not planning on marching on cities, they (a number of them, at least) have become hostile to the normal population, much like the Templars predicted.
So, if the Mages hadn't run, what would have happened to them (I haven't read the book)?
So, if the Mages hadn't run, what would have happened to them (I haven't read the book)?
IDK, but all of the First Enchanters were being held in the dungeons on Lambert's order until the Divine helped them escape, so likely nothing good.
and more to the point, Lambert didn't want a war. Fiona and Anders did. so who is more to blame for this war? the ones actively attempting to start it or those who were trying to keep it in a stagnating peace?
Anders, Adrian, Meredith, Lambert, Justina V and the Red lyrium idol.
these things has the biggest blame, Fiona doesn't have the much of a blame other then wanting to separate the Circle form the Chantry and is more then willing to fight for that cause (much like Adraste fought for her cause back in the day), she pushed for that ideal, but unfortunately she is an idealist, but she isn't a fanatic as Adrian is.
You are incorrect and applying a double standard.
Lambert, in his own thoughts, described his plan as defeating the mages and restoring the Circle. Therefore, the goal of the leadership was always simply to restore order.
Did that translate perfectly well into the real world? No but the same applies to mages. For a group that was only interested in fleeing, they seem to be busy setting fire to people who look them sideway in the Hinterlands.
The Templars isn't much better in the Hinderlands, but that's because most of the Leadership has been blown to bits on both sides.
They have no idea what to do other then to fight.
the enchanter only ran when they were out matched, like any military force would. the entire resolutionist group wanted war. and they pushed for war. While the Lambert didn't.
and anyway, he again only left the Chantry when the Divine and the Mage's broke the Nevarran Accord. which is what actually started the war, since the Nevarran accord was the peace agreement the Inquisition the Chantry and the Magi sign to broker peace. so once they broke the terms they started war.
Seriously. You say they didn't start the war because they didn't officially leave even though they did still rebel by leaving and started the war by doing so. so if you want to talk about who Officially started the war it would be the mage's who broke the terms of the treaty.
More like the Libertarians and more specifically their sub group called the Resolutionist who are pushing for war.
There are also the Isolationists, the Loyalists, Aequitarians (this is the largest group) and the Lucrosians.
So, if the Mages hadn't run, what would have happened to them (I haven't read the book)?
I assume Tranquillity or death considering how they were locked up in dungeons.
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