104 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilaeth]

I assume Tranquillity or death considering how they were locked up in dungeons. 

 

So not really a choice at all then?  More like put them in a position where they have to run, and then when they run, slaughter them?  Hardly seems fair.

[Kieran G.]

 

More like the Libertarians and more specifically their sub group called the Resolutionist who are pushing for war.

 

There are also the Isolationists, the Loyalists, Aequitarians (this is the largest group) and the Lucrosians.

I know who the resolutionist are  i spoke about them in the post you are quoting.

[raging_monkey]

A MT DEBATE! Happy days

[Kieran G.]

So not really a choice at all then?  More like put them in a position where they have to run, and then when they run, slaughter them?  Hardly seems fair.

They ran, and then forced every mage into a war not all of them wanted. what is actually fair?

[Bigdoser]

They ran, and then forced every mage into a war not all of them wanted. what is actually fair?

Well considering the situation with the templars all mages will be forced to fight they really won't make a distinction. An enchanter WHOLE circle was annulled because of what happened in orlais with the enchanters she could not even make it to the official surrender or fight vote. Plus considering annulment also includes children. That's the reason why the moderates the aequitarians chose to fight instead of surrender since now its fight or die.  

 

Even if I support the mages its issues on both sides that lead to war neither side is FULLY at fault. We need a new system, the old system is broken forever. 

[TTTX]

I know who the resolutionist are  i spoke about them in the post you are quoting.

Just checking. XD

 

 

They ran, and then forced every mage into a war not all of them wanted. what is actually fair?

There is no such thing as fair when it comes to war.

 

 

Well considering the situation with the templars all mages will be forced to fight they really won't make a distinction. Am enchanter circle was annulled because of what happened in orlais with the enchanters. That's the reason why the moderates the aequitarians chose to fight instead of surrender since now its fight or die.  

 

Even if I support the mages its issues or both sides that lead to war neither side is FULLY at fault. We need a new system.

A system where both sides get watched.

[Tevinter Soldier]

the enchanter only ran when they were out matched, like any military force would. the entire resolutionist group wanted war. and they pushed for war. While the Lambert didn't.

 

and anyway, he again only left the Chantry when the Divine and the Mage's broke the Nevarran Accord. which is what actually started the war, since the Nevarran accord was the peace agreement the Inquisition the Chantry and the Magi sign to broker peace. so once they broke the terms they started war.

 

Seriously. You say they didn't start the war because they didn't officially leave even though they did still rebel by leaving and started the war by doing so. so if you want to talk about who Officially started the war it would be the mage's who broke the terms of the treaty.

 

the treaty had nothing to do the mages, they didn't have any say in it. it was an agreement between the chantry and the Inquisition.

it was not a peace deal it was the founding of the Chantries military arm the templars and what their ROLE would be.

 

with the circles gone the templars no longer had to fulfill that role. that does not allow them to start murdering people. Leaving is not an act of war it's not even a hostile act. it was a democratic vote to throw off the chains of oppression with the support of the divine.

 

the templars THEN decided to say "nope" murder time. you continually try to blame those who expressly didn't want to murder anyone when lambert is show quite clearly to deciding murder is exactly what he wants! it was his choice. no matter what he wanted them hunted down and slain.

 

a persons actions are their own, you can justify his reasons for starting the war. trying to say he didn't start it is nonsense.

[Kieran G.]

the treaty had nothing to do the mages, they didn't have any say in it. it was an agreement between the chantry and the Inquisition.

it was not a peace deal it was the founding of the Chantries military arm the templars and what their ROLE would be.

 

with the circles gone the templars no longer had to fulfill that role. that does not allow them to start murdering people. Leaving is not an act of war it's not even a hostile act. it was a democratic vote to throw off the chains of oppression with the support of the divine.

 

the templars THEN decided to say "nope" murder time. you continually try to blame who expressly didn't want to murder anyone when lambert is show quite clearly to decide murder is exactly what he wants it was his choice. no made he murder anybody hunt them down slay them.

 

a persons actions are their own, you can justify his reasons for starting the war. trying to say he didn't start it is nonsense.

And trying to say the mage's didn't start it is nonsense when you yourself just stated they had a democratic vote with the support of the divine to start a war.

[helpthisguyplease]

I really like the Bioware when they make such a controversial wars on which we will never find the side responsible. We simply see the war and its beginning by filtrating it trough our personality and temper so we will never find out who is the one in the right or in the wrong we just debate. That is why I am hostile to both.

[TTTX]

And trying to say the mage's didn't start it is nonsense when you yourself just stated they had a democratic vote with the support of the divine to start a war.

A vote that we never got to know the results of and it was vote about being making the circle independent of the chantry not go to war.

[Tevinter Soldier]

And trying to say the mage's didn't start it is nonsense when you yourself just stated they had a democratic vote with the support of the divine to start a war.

 

to LEAVE! not start a war!

 

explain how LEAVING is an act of war? there were no arms raised they did not march on the templars and hunt them down.

that would have been WAR.

 

the hostilities began when Lambert decided to kill people FOR LEAVING! you understand the mages could have left without the templars hunting them down yes? that the templars could have said, "Maybe we should sit down and try to work something out?" or even "you know maybe we should look at why they left? maybe its something we did?"

 

But lambert didn't do, His time in tevinter made him fear and hate mages and he didn't believe they should have any freedoms at all. This fear drove him to make the decision to start hunting them down. that is your act of war. he essentially ordered the execution of refugees who fled after being held as the chantries political prisoners for most of their lives.

[helpthisguyplease]

to LEAVE! not start a war!

 

explain how LEAVING is an act of war? there were no arms raised they did not march on the templars and hunt them down.

that would have been WAR.

 

the hostilities began when Lambert decided to kill people FOR LEAVING! you understand the mages could have left without the templars hunting them down yes? that the templars could have said, "Maybe we should sit down and try to work something out?" or even "you know maybe we should look at why they left? maybe its something we did?"

 

But lambert didn't do, His time in tevinter made him fear and hate mages and he didn't believe they should have any freedoms at all. This fear drove him to make the decision to start hunting them down. that is your act of war. he essentially ordered the execution of refugees who fled after being held as the chantries political prisoners for most of their lives.

I am curious how will you deal with lambert in your playtrough from what I read you will probably try to change his mind.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I am curious how will you deal with lambert in your playtrough from what I read you will probably try to change his mind.

 

if i'm able he'll be brought back for trial.

[Kieran G.]

to LEAVE! not start a war!

 

explain how LEAVING is an act of war? there were no arms raised they did not march on the templars and hunt them down.

that would have been WAR.

 

the hostilities began when Lambert decided to kill people FOR LEAVING! you understand the mages could have left without the templars hunting them down yes? that the templars could have said, "Maybe we should sit down and try to work something out?" or even "you know maybe we should look at why they left? maybe its something we did?"

 

But lambert didn't do, His time in tevinter made him fear and hate mages and he didn't believe they should have any freedoms at all. This fear drove him to make the decision to start hunting them down. that is your act of war. he essentially ordered the execution of refugees who fled after being held as the chantries political prisoners for most of their lives.

He didn't declare anything. he was acting the way the Templars were supposed, he was hunting down apostates. which was his duty as a Templar to do so and of course he kept that mentality when he was High Seeker.

 

Actually i will agree the mage's didn't start a war leaving. they are rebelling and of course they would be met with violence with the type of things they have shown they are capable of. this is what you do to anyone who rebels, the mage's weren't willing to give ground just like the templars weren't so the mages rebelled and broke rules and laws and were met with violence they deserved for their selfishness. and the templars will see the same fate because of their own selfishness.

Neither of them are right and neither of them are innocent, they both deserve the sword for the destruction they are causing and the peace they are breaking. 

 

You act as though their "Leaving" was the right thing to do even though it was plain and simply selfish acts endangering hundreds of mage's who didn't want this war and putting thousands of common folk in the way.

 

Neither deserve sympathy for their selfish actions, and both are the cause of this war. Especially those mage's who purposely pushed for this war or caused terrorist attacks to force templar hands in hope the mage's would also rise up. 

 

You act like the mage's are innocent when starting this war when in fact they have gallons of blood at their feet which many of them will use from fear of frightful acts. just like templars have caused gallons of blood at their feet from fear of frightening acts

 

I am curious how will you deal with lambert in your playtrough from what I read you will probably try to change his mind.

You should read Asunder.

[Lilaeth]

They ran, and then forced every mage into a war not all of them wanted. what is actually fair?

It depends.  If they basically ran and tried to hide, where was the need to turn it into a war/slaughter?  What about mages who didn't run?  Have they been killed too?  Or did every mage in Thedas suddenly turn into a death-dealing killing machine?

[Kieran G.]

It depends.  If they basically ran and tried to hide, where was the need to turn it into a war/slaughter?  What about mages who didn't run?  Have they been killed too?  Or did every mage in Thedas suddenly turn into a death-dealing killing machine?

it was a vote of grand enchanters. meaning every circle they represented would be involved in the outcome of the vote. 

[Lilaeth]

it was a vote of grand enchanters. meaning every circle they represented would be involved in the outcome of the vote. 

Yes, but my questions still stand.  Did everyone run?  If not, what's happened to any that didn't run?  Or did the book not make it clear?  I would find a scenario where mages sat in their circles, saying 'we don't want any part of this, we're staying put' and where then killed, unacceptable.

[TTTX]

He didn't declare anything. he was acting the way the Templars were supposed, he was hunting down apostates. which was his duty as a Templar to do so and of course he kept that mentality when he was High Seeker.

 

Actually i will agree the mage's didn't start a war leaving. they are rebelling and of course they would be met with violence with the type of things they have shown they are capable of. this is what you do to anyone who rebels, the mage's weren't willing to give ground just like the templars weren't so the mages rebelled and broke rules and laws and were met with violence they deserved for their selfishness. and the templars will see the same fate because of their own selfishness.

Neither of them are right and neither of them are innocent, they both deserve the sword for the destruction they are causing and the peace they are breaking. 

 

You act as though their "Leaving" was the right thing to do even though it was plain and simply selfish acts endangering hundreds of mage's who didn't want this war and putting thousands of common folk in the way.

 

Neither deserve sympathy for their selfish actions, and both are the cause of this war. Especially those mage's who purposely pushed for this war or caused terrorist attacks to force templar hands in hope the mage's would also rise up. 

 

You act like the mage's are innocent when starting this war when in fact they have gallons of blood at their feet which many of them will use from fear of frightful acts. just like templars have caused gallons of blood at their feet from fear of frightening acts

Lambert was Lord Seeker, not a templar.

 

 

it was a vote of grand enchanters. meaning every circle they represented would be involved in the outcome of the vote. 

most of them, Viv didn't join the war and she is probably not the only one. 

 

Not to mention in some of the circles (most likely in the free marches) the Templars tried to kill the mages even the ones who wanted nothing to do with the war (as hinted at in human mage inquisitor origin story).

 

similar to not all Seekers and Templars didn't join in on the war.

[MisterJB]

with the circles gone the templars no longer had to fulfill that role. that does not allow them to start murdering people. Leaving is not an act of war it's not even a hostile act. it was a democratic vote to throw off the chains of oppression with the support of the divine.

What gave the mages the right to leave in the first place?

There was an agreement that the mages would remain in the Circles and the Templars would watch over them. What gives mages the right to just disagree with a thousand year old contract and leave?

If prisioners democratically vote that they don't want to be in prison anymore, are the guards at fault if they to stop them from leaving?

 

the templars THEN decided to say "nope" murder time. you continually try to blame those who expressly didn't want to murder anyone when lambert is show quite clearly to deciding murder is exactly what he wants! it was his choice. no matter what he wanted them hunted down and slain.

As the quote I posted proves, Lambert only wanted mages to return to their place AKA the Circle.

That, by itself, does not need to result in any deaths. But logically, the mages will attempt to avoid it which will lead to hostility which will lead to death.

However, the same can be said of the mages' decision. Leaving, by itself, does not need to result in any deaths. But logically, the Templars will attempt to avoid it which will lead to hostility which will lead to death.

 

Why are the Templars to blame if the mages attempt to avoid something they find unnaceptable and this results in deaths but the mages are innocents if the Templars attempt to avoid something they find unnaceptable and this results in deaths?

[Master Warder Z_]

no they voted to leave the oppression of the circles behind

 

Right...

 

Coming from the supporter of a Land that still HAS circles.

 

God Tevinter is amusing sometimes.

[X Equestris]

Yes, but my questions still stand.  Did everyone run?  If not, what's happened to any that didn't run?  Or did the book not make it clear?

After they flee, the enchanters gather at Andoral's Reach, I believe, and hold their vote. That vote ends up disbanding the Circle. I doubt most of the other mages in Thedas were aware of this and had run by that time. If the Templars in those Circles heard about it first, they might have felt justified in killing the mages in their Circles. It's left rather vague in the book, though.

[Lilaeth]

After they flee, the enchanters gather at Andoral's Reach, I believe, and hold their vote. That vote ends up disbanding the Circle. I doubt most of the other mages in Thedas were aware of this and had run by that time. If the Templars in those Circles heard about it first, they might have felt justified in killing the mages in their Circles. It's left rather vague in the book, though.

OK, thanks! 

 

Well, I'm British, and we've slaughtered people all over the place, but killing mages who have stayed in their circles is just not on, I'm afraid. 

[raging_monkey]

Freedom is a noble ideal and support mage freedom but the way it was done (anders, adrian,fiona lambert) just shows how stupid both sides are.

Sadly there can be no peace and change is coming... people will fight it to their last fiber. Either the magi will be free to make their own path or they will fail and the templars WILL likly extertminate the magi and make new circles harsher than the past

[helpthisguyplease]

 

You should read Asunder.

I read it but we do not know if he is dead it is implied but that is what makes me believe he is alive. Why go to all that trouble to make it uncertain if you do not plan on using the character again.

[Tevinter Soldier]

He didn't declare anything. he was acting the way the Templars were supposed, he was hunting down apostates. which was his duty as a Templar to do so and of course he kept that mentality when he was High Seeker.

 

Actually i will agree the mage's didn't start a war leaving. they are rebelling and of course they would be met with violence with the type of things they have shown they are capable of. this is what you do to anyone who rebels, the mage's weren't willing to give ground just like the templars weren't so the mages rebelled and broke rules and laws and were met with violence they deserved for their selfishness. and the templars will see the same fate because of their own selfishness.

Neither of them are right and neither of them are innocent, they both deserve the sword for the destruction they are causing and the peace they are breaking. 

 

You act as though their "Leaving" was the right thing to do even though it was plain and simply selfish acts endangering hundreds of mage's who didn't want this war and putting thousands of common folk in the way.

 

Neither deserve sympathy for their selfish actions, and both are the cause of this war. Especially those mage's who purposely pushed for this war or caused terrorist attacks to force templar hands in hope the mage's would also rise up. 

 

You act like the mage's are innocent when starting this war when in fact they have gallons of blood at their feet which many of them will use from fear of frightful acts. just like templars have caused gallons of blood at their feet from fear of frightening acts

 

You should read Asunder.

 

I've read Asunder 3 times, where we disagree is that there had to be war. a templars duty is to serve the divine and follow the accord. But both of those were thrown out in order for lambert to have his war.

 

there are gallons of blood on both sides through the entire conflict. but the war? the war started because of lambert. there was no need for templars to do what they did and this crap about serving and duty is exactly that. If they cared about duty they would never have stepped out of their role as protectors in the first place.

 

The templars problem is think they should rule mages, its not their job and never was. Which is why the seekers and the divine had oversight. Lambert pissed all over his duty every step of the way, not only did he not reign in the templars he brought in ever more draconian measures including ordering executions of people who were following the divines orders.

 

you can't pick and chose what the role of a templar is, their role was to protect mage's and mundanes from each other, serve the divine and return apostates to the nearest circle. you can't just drop the first two roles of Templars.

 

and no you don't use violence against people "rebelling" unless they are violent. Tyrants do that. Which is what lambert was involving into, spitting in the face of the divine and trying to rule of Magi with a iron fist. like it or not people have rights whether you fear them or not. Suggesting they should be blamed because other won't allow them to have freedom is nut's. 

 

oh you're being raped and murdered? turned into zombies? better just accept that else you're responsible for the people doing the raping murdering and zombifying deciding to murder you all on a much much larger scale.

 

Like it or not Magi "rebelled" for their freedom, the fact they are powerful and you fear them doesn't mean they don't have rights.