104 réponses à ce sujet

[Kieran G.]

Yes, but my questions still stand.  Did everyone run?  If not, what's happened to any that didn't run?  Or did the book not make it clear?  I would find a scenario where mages sat in their circles, saying 'we don't want any part of this, we're staying put' and where then killed, unacceptable.

Well we know hundreds of mage's are in the war. and go to the summit. we just honestly don't know at the end of the book. its 3ish years prior to inquisition.

 

I read it but we do not know if he is dead it is implied but that is what makes me believe he is alive. Why go to all that trouble to make it uncertain if you do not plan on using the character again.

TME spoiler.

Spoiler

They left Felassan death ambiguous, many authors do that, its for dramatic effect, you are then to infer he is dead.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Right...

 

Coming from the supporter of a Land that still HAS circles.

 

God Tevinter is amusing sometimes.

 

circles systems are run much differently in Tevinter, Those differences just might be a very big reason why Tevinters circles are still operating.

[helpthisguyplease]

Well we know hundreds of mage's are in the war. and go to the summit. we just honestly don't know at the end of the book. its 3ish years prior to inquisition.

 

TME spoiler.

Spoiler

They left Felassan death ambiguous, many authors do that, its for dramatic effect, you are then to infer he is dead.

You might be surprised   I still stay by my belief. 

[Kieran G.]

Lambert was Lord Seeker, not a templar.

 

 

most of them, Viv didn't join the war and she is probably not the only one. 

 

Not to mention in some of the circles (most likely in the free marches) the Templars tried to kill the mages even the ones who wanted nothing to do with the war (as hinted at in human mage inquisitor origin story).

 

similar to not all Seekers and Templars didn't join in on the war.

I said he wasn't a templar in that post aswell i said he kept the mentality from when he was. 

 

and viv isn't a grand enchanter so most likely she was just at the royal court when the whole lot of them escaped.

 

I've read Asunder 3 times, where we disagree is that there had to be war. a templars duty is to serve the divine and follow the accord. But both of those were thrown out in order for lambert to have his war.

 

there are gallons of blood on both sides through the entire conflict. but the war? the war started because of lambert. there was no need for templars to do what they did and this crap about serving and duty is exactly that. If they cared about duty they would never have stepped out of their role as protectors in the first place.

 

The templars problem is think they should rule mages, its not their job and never was. Which is why the seekers and the divine had oversight. Lambert pissed all over his duty every step of the way, not only did he not reign in the templars he brought in ever more draconian measures including ordering executions of people who were following the divines orders.

 

you can't pick and chose what the role of a templar is, their role was to protect mage's and mundanes from each other, serve the divine and return apostates to the nearest circle. you can't just drop the first two roles of Templars.

 

and no you don't use violence against people "rebelling" unless they are violent. Tyrants do that. Which is what lambert was involving into, spitting in the face of the divine and trying to rule of Magi with a iron fist. like it or not people have rights whether you fear them or not. Suggesting they should be blamed because other won't allow them to have freedom is nut's. 

 

oh you're being raped and murdered? turned into zombies? better just accept that else you're responsible for the people doing the raping murdering and zombifying deciding to murder you all on a much much larger scale.

 

Like it or not Magi "rebelled" for their freedom, the fact they are powerful and you fear them doesn't mean they don't have rights. 

1-the post about asunder wasn't towards you, look who i'm quoting.

 

2-the templars job is to protect the common people from the mage's and the mages from the common people. they decided they knew best and left, the templars were doing their exact duty, the mage's abandon their own.

 

3-mage's are inherently different from mundanes and therefore cannot be treated with the same guidelines and rights of common people. mage's are inherently not equal to mundanes and cannot be treated as equal otherwise you get another corrupt and rotting tevinter imperium on your hands. 

 

they must being in there gilded cages for the protection of the world and those who prove themself to have control of their magic and unhostle and selfish ideal they should be granted to live outside of circles. they do not deserve freedom just because they exist as a weapon, weapons must be watched, its the same reason they don't give every peasant a sword. 

 

and as much as i love the divine, lambert had all the right to break away from the templars when she kept him from his duties. if anything the divine betrayed the founders of the chantry, and so did all the enchanters who broke the law their forefathers made with Emperor Drakon and Divine justinia I to create the circle's.

 

also the templar role is set in stone, they are to hunt apostates and protect the common people from the mage's who become selfish. hell even fellow enchanter viv has said the mage's who started this war were selfish. and didn't think of the common folk. beucase that's the truth, they lived for so long in their own worlds they thought themself so important, while the templars knew what they were protecting, knew the destructions mage's can cause, the mage's on the other hand are untouched by the reality of the situaition and dont comprehend the world they live in and the fear and destruction they cause so often, its like a dog wagging his tail, he doesn't know he is knocking over your stuff, but you still must make him stop and be more careful, but since its a part of him, he doesn't know. 

[Panda]

I'm assuming that in DAI there will be different factions of mages and templars, some reasonable and some unreasonable within both. I'm hoping I can find some Pro-Circle mages to restore Circle system and some templars to guard circles who are open to needed reform. That would be my ideal scenario.

[Tevinter Soldier]

What gave the mages the right to leave in the first place?

There was an agreement that the mages would remain in the Circles and the Templars would watch over them. What gives mages the right to just disagree with a thousand year old contract and leave?

If prisioners democratically vote that they don't want to be in prison anymore, are the guards at fault if they to stop them from leaving?

 

As the quote I posted proves, Lambert only wanted mages to return to their place AKA the Circle.

That, by itself, does not need to result in any deaths. But logically, the mages will attempt to avoid it which will lead to hostility which will lead to death.

However, the same can be said of the mages' decision. Leaving, by itself, does not need to result in any deaths. But logically, the Templars will attempt to avoid it which will lead to hostility which will lead to death.

 

Why are the Templars to blame if the mages attempt to avoid something they find unnaceptable and this results in deaths but the mages are innocents if the Templars attempt to avoid something they find unnaceptable and this results in deaths?

 

I don't know when the prisoners have done nothing wrong you should be grateful they don't burn you alive they decide to stop taking the oppression you dish out. You should probably kiss their boots if they decide to just up and leave. as for the rest Lambert is the one who closed the circles in the first place! this crap that he only wanted things to go back to the way they are is complete fiction. it's pretty clear that to lambert their "proper place" is under his boot. he had no intention of doing anything peacefully or restoring the old system.

 

and tradition doesn't mean a damn thing, Who gave the right of half of thedas to break from Tevinter? like it or not theirs right and wrong, Oppressing people is inherently wrong and people will never accept it forever.

 

Yes believe it or not when you lock people up for existing and then systematically oppress them their entire lives generation after generation and take pride in doing so, you're a bad guy. no matter how good your intentions you're an evil son of a ******. you don't get to claim you were doing the right thing.

 

Which is why the templars spat on the divine at a moments notice. tradition and honour meant stuff all, their fear and depravity is what drove them.

[Kieran G.]

 

and tradition doesn't mean a damn thing, Who gave the right of half of thedas to break from Tevinter? like it or not theirs right and wrong, Oppressing people is inherently wrong and people will never accept it forever.

 

that's incredibly funny coming from someone who supports tevinter.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I said he wasn't a templar in that post aswell i said he kept the mentality from when he was. 

 

and viv isn't a grand enchanter so most likely she was just at the royal court when the whole lot of them escaped.

 

1-the post about asunder wasn't towards you, look who i'm quoting.

 

2-the templars job is to protect the common people from the mage's and the mages from the common people. they decided they knew best and left, the templars were doing their exact duty, the mage's abandon their own.

 

3-mage's are inherently different from mundanes and therefore cannot be treated with the same guidelines and rights of common people. mage's are inherently not equal to mundanes and cannot be treated as equal otherwise you get another corrupt and rotting tevinter imperium on your hands. 

 

they must being in there gilded cages for the protection of the world and those who prove themself to have control of their magic and unhostle and selfish ideal they should be granted to live outside of circles. they do not deserve freedom just because they exist as a weapon, weapons must be watched, its the same reason they don't give every peasant a sword. 

 

and as much as i love the divine, lambert had all the right to break away from the templars when she kept him from his duties. if anything the divine betrayed the founders of the chantry, and so did all the enchanters who broke the law their forefathers made with Emperor Drakon and Divine justinia I to create the circle's.

 

also the templar role is set in stone, they are to hunt apostates and protect the common people from the mage's who become selfish. hell even fellow enchanter viv has said the mage's who started this war were selfish. and didn't think of the common folk. beucase that's the truth, they lived for so long in their own worlds they thought themself so important, while the templars knew what they were protecting, knew the destructions mage's can cause, the mage's on the other hand are untouched by the reality of the situaition and dont comprehend the world they live in and the fear and destruction they cause so often, its like a dog wagging his tail, he doesn't know he is knocking over your stuff, but you still must make him stop and be more careful, but since its a part of him, he doesn't know. 

 

and your entire argument collapses if you reverse the roles. By your logic, the Qunari and southern thedas prove you can't leave Mundanes in charge as they will systematically oppress Mage's out of jealousy and fear. ergo Mundanes must not be allowed to rule or have as much freedoms as Magi.

 

the fact is people are people, there's no justification to oppress someone who's never done anything wrong no matter how powerful they are.

your dog analogy is quite apt considering thats how southern thedas treats Magi's, like animals. you treat a person like a dog and all you'll get in return is contempt. Viv a woman who's wormed her way into the comfort and protection of the orlesian court, while her fellow mages die and is more concerned with "looking good" then being practical in a time of war and uncertainty preaching about selfishness. 

 

Ignorance and fear are things to combated you don't kowtow to the unwashed you give them soap and water. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

that's incredibly funny coming from someone who supports tevinter.

 

I'm out of character ATM. 

[The Baconer]

No, but they gave it its spark. First in their neglect, and then in their treason.

[MisterJB]

You arguments have devolved, Tevinter Soldier.

First, your notion of what Lambert meant is not supported by the book. It even uses the word "back". Considering that before  the rebellion they were in the Circles, it is only logical that by "back in their place", Lambert meant "returned to the Circle."

Need I remind you that he acknowledges he has an oath to defend mages, even if he doesn't think they deserve it? He is, actually, very dutiful so long as you're not betraying your own people as Justinia did.

 

Ultimately, you're not really adressing my point which was that the Templars and mages' actions were, in fact, quite similar. Rather, you've just said "Templas are evil" because it is what you believe. You are entitled to your opinion, of course but logic is on my side.

[TTTX]

I said he wasn't a templar in that post aswell i said he kept the mentality from when he was. 

 

and viv isn't a grand enchanter so most likely she was just at the royal court when the whole lot of them escaped.

 

1-the post about asunder wasn't towards you, look who i'm quoting.

 

2-the templars job is to protect the common people from the mage's and the mages from the common people. they decided they knew best and left, the templars were doing their exact duty, the mage's abandon their own.

 

3-mage's are inherently different from mundanes and therefore cannot be treated with the same guidelines and rights of common people. mage's are inherently not equal to mundanes and cannot be treated as equal otherwise you get another corrupt and rotting tevinter imperium on your hands. 

 

they must being in there gilded cages for the protection of the world and those who prove themself to have control of their magic and unhostle and selfish ideal they should be granted to live outside of circles. they do not deserve freedom just because they exist as a weapon, weapons must be watched, its the same reason they don't give every peasant a sword. 

 

and as much as i love the divine, lambert had all the right to break away from the templars when she kept him from his duties. if anything the divine betrayed the founders of the chantry, and so did all the enchanters who broke the law their forefathers made with Emperor Drakon and Divine justinia I to create the circle's.

 

also the templar role is set in stone, they are to hunt apostates and protect the common people from the mage's who become selfish. hell even fellow enchanter viv has said the mage's who started this war were selfish. and didn't think of the common folk. beucase that's the truth, they lived for so long in their own worlds they thought themself so important, while the templars knew what they were protecting, knew the destructions mage's can cause, the mage's on the other hand are untouched by the reality of the situaition and dont comprehend the world they live in and the fear and destruction they cause so often, its like a dog wagging his tail, he doesn't know he is knocking over your stuff, but you still must make him stop and be more careful, but since its a part of him, he doesn't know. 

I think, one of the faults of the system is that mages don't have any people to report to when one the templars step out of line, we saw that in Kirkwall where Meredith could run a city for 3 years and she answered to one other then the mother of the local chantry (who did nothing to stop things in their tracks).

[Kieran G.]

and your entire argument collapses if you reverse the roles. By your logic, the Qunari and southern thedas prove you can't leave Mundanes in charge as they will systematically oppress Mage's out of jealousy and fear. ergo Mundanes must not be allowed to rule or have as much freedoms as Magi.

 

the fact is people are people, there's no justification to oppress someone who's never done anything wrong no matter how powerful they are.

your dog analogy is quite apt considering thats how southern thedas treats Magi's, like animals. you treat a person like a dog and all you'll get in return is contempt. Viv a woman who's wormed her way into the orlesian court while her fellow mages die and is more concerned with "looking good" then being practical in a time of war and uncertainty preaching about selfishness.

 

Ignorance and fear are things to combated you don't kowtow to the unwashed you give them soap and water. 

If anything the mage's of the Qun know the power they weild and the destruction they might unknowingly cause, and therefore in fear of demons give them self to the Qun and self immolation, and then you state the jealousy of the south caused the mage's to be oppressed even though the imperial chantry believes andraste was a mage and fought against the tevinter magisters. 

 

The mage's are dangerous pure and simple, they kill hundreds to attempt to steal the "Powers of the gods" destroy entire civilizations and cultures, enslaves thousands every year, and even the writers portray the free mage's of tevinter as evil, and corrupt. 

 

What more does it take for people to stop using tevinter as an example of a working system of free mage's when ever the writer in every turn they are shown are portrayed as evil?

 

the system is flawed but its what is needed to not cause more destruction like you seem to dismiss. i am done arguing with you, i see it's complete bias, where you think only one party is in the wrong, and give no ground in the matter, i guess in the sense, you are as unreasonable to change as the templars you are describing. 

[Kieran G.]

I think, one of the faults of the system is that mages don't have any people to report to when one the templars step out of line, we saw that in Kirkwall where Meredith could run a city for 3 years and she answered to one other then the mother of the local chantry (who did nothing to stop things in their tracks).

this is why the system needs more change and peaceful talks can make these things happen, not all out war, because of selfishness and misunderstanding.

[Tevinter Soldier]

You arguments have devolved, Tevinter Soldier.

First, your notion of what Lambert meant is not supported by the book. It even uses the word "back". Considering that before  the rebellion they were in the Circles, it is only logical that by "back in their place", Lambert meant "returned to the Circle."

Need I remind you that he acknowledges he has an oath to defend mages, even if he doesn't think they deserve it? He is, actually, very dutiful so long as you're not betraying your own people as Justinia did.

 

Ultimately, you're not really adressing my point which was that the Templars and mages' actions were, in fact, quite similar. Rather, you've just said "Templas are evil" because it is what you believe. You are entitled to your opinion, of course but logic is on my side.

 

I've answered your assertion many times. what started the war was lamberts action to hunt down mages.

their are many things that lead to war but only one action marks the start of it.

hitler invading poland, Hirohito's invasion of china.

[lil yonce]

Without a doubt the templars started the war. The circle declared its independence and the templars left the Chantry to hunt them down. No matter how you spin it the templars started the war.

[Tevinter Soldier]

If anything the mage's of the Qun know the power they weild and the destruction they might unknowingly cause, and therefore in fear of demons give them self to the Qun and self immolation, and then you state the jealousy of the south caused the mage's to be oppressed even though the imperial chantry believes andraste was a mage and fought against the tevinter magisters. 

 

The mage's are dangerous pure and simple, they kill hundreds to attempt to steal the "Powers of the gods" destroy entire civilizations and cultures, enslaves thousands every year, and even the writers portray the free mage's of tevinter as evil, and corrupt. 

 

What more does it take for people to stop using tevinter as an example of a working system of free mage's when ever the writer in every turn they are shown are portrayed as evil?

 

the system is flawed but its what is needed to not cause more destruction like you seem to dismiss. i am done arguing with you, i see it's complete bias, where you think only one party is in the wrong, and give no ground in the matter, i guess in the sense, you are as unreasonable to change as the templars you are describing. 

 

Ironic that you say this considering you won't even entertain the idea that equality can work and continue to justify the system which yourself admit is flawed using the actions of people long dead as justification of the oppression.

 

I don't pretend to unbiased, but your flat refusal to entertain the Idea the system should be overturned just highlights the reason for the rebellion in the first place. You wont listen. 

[TTTX]

this is why the system needs more change and peaceful talks can make these things happen, not all out war, because of selfishness and misunderstanding.

Not all mages wanted war, even the vote the mages held at the end of the book was decided by one vote. I think most mages in the war is just fighting for their survival rather then their independence from the Chantry.

 

However thanks to a-holes like Adrian and sir Alrik who keeps pushing from both sides well threw both sides in this conflict.

[MisterJB]

Of course equality can't work, what a ridiculous notion.

Mages have acess to abilities that allow them to dominate society. If non-mages don't want to be second class citizens, they have to keep the mages under control and restrict their freedoms.

[helpthisguyplease]

Let me ask you all something during her mandate the current divine could not stop the templar-mage war failed to stop the civil war in Orlais and she is a big lesbian(not that is bad but is against the teachings of the chantry) hypocrite that manipulated a women to kill her mentor and her employee why is she still on that position?

[TTTX]

Let me ask you all something during her mandate the current divine could not stop the templar-mage war failed to stop the civil war in Orlais and she is a big lesbian(not that is bad but is against the teachings of the chantry) hypocrite that manipulated a women to kill her mentor and her employee why is she still on that position?

Some things happened beyond her control, like Adrian, but she did try to stop the mage templar war from happening, she failed but she tried and she did manage to get both side to summit to discuss peace which then exploded in her face.

 

The chantry doesn't have anything to say on who rules Orlais, so she couldn't do much about that.

[Kieran G.]

Let me ask you all something during her mandate the current divine could not stop the templar-mage war failed to stop the civil war in Orlais and she is a big lesbian(not that is bad but is against the teachings of the chantry) hypocrite that manipulated a women to kill her mentor and her employee why is she still on that position?

because before all this stuff she got s*** done!

 

 

Kidding, probably just very influential within the grand clerics and was voted up until she lost support and it became tougher to get anything to happen.

[MisterJB]

I'm trying to come up with a way how "murder Templars so the First Enchanters who were just discussing whether to be independent can be free to vote for independence" figures into a plan to prevent war and I'm coming short.

[helpthisguyplease]

because before all this stuff she got s*** done!

 

 

Kidding, probably just very influential within the grand clerics and was voted up until she lost support and it became tougher to get anything to happen.

Is the divine system similar with the papacy system were once you get in to office you can only leave it by willing  abdication or death?

[EmperorKarino]

I remember reading this in a Dragon Age book that the high seeker started the mage-templar war so why do they try so stop it now?

 

 a big war on this scale was not triggered by one event, it was mostly started on the mages side to rebel, i don't doubt that the seekers and templars did stuff to help push the war, but the mages rising up and leaving the circles is what ultimately lead to the mage templar war, the templars and seekers abandoning the chantry is a factor but not a cause.