392 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

Who else finds it hilarious that she's using Bioware games to further her agenda, despite the fact that Bioware is super pro social justice?

 

Whatever, this woman doesn't deserve the attention she's getting, but you can bet she'll get a lot of white knights and SJW to give her more cash and hire her for more seminars, and never once will they look into any deconstruction of her work.

Any deconstruction is obviously misogyny performed by counterrevolutionaries.

[Fidite Nemini]

Dead horse.

 

Every discussion about any alleged misongyny BioWare may or may not depict in their games (which they don't) has been argued ad nauseum a couple times over already.

[bmwcrazy]

Misogyny? LOL

Just ignore it and keep playing your games, fellas.

[Il Divo]

During the interview, she specifically singled out BioWare (through Dragon Age) as a 'prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry'.

Do you feel this claim by Sarkeesian is fair/unfair? Do you think BioWare is problematic when it comes to certain type of content? Do you believe they perpetuate misogyny in the gaming industry? Whether intentional or not. Discuss here.
 

 

If she did claim this, I think it's a bit excessive. Not because I think that Bioware can't improve in their portrayal of female characters, but considering that they do have some of the best female characters in gaming, I think we can cut them a little slack.

 

Constructive criticism is always helpful, but it's unfortunate that some people have a habit of treating their greatest allies as being their greatest enemies in order to push their agenda. 

[TheChris92]

In regards to the person who brought up Bayonetta -- To me, I don't consider her character as being demeaning, or mysoginistic, and not because the game itself is over-the-top-nonsense to point that it drinks wackers-aid from a clown shoe. Irony can't excuse writing for being demeaning but representation can. Also, a quick note and slightly related to the last sentence. There's a difference between wanting to portray sensitive subjects like "racism, sexism" etc than condoning it. Ragnar Tørnquist, specifically known for writing excellent female characters, who are quite down-to-the-earth and feel more or less like people than gender-stereo-types, responded to criticism in regards to the use of "albeist language" with a character in Dreamfall Chapters. I think what he says is quite relevant to this current topic here.

 

To me, Bayonetta is a starkly more well-represented character than say the modern Lara Croft. In many ways due to the actual representation of both. It also brings me to the point of discussing the phrase "strong female character" and essentially how that is defined by the community. Usually, in this day and age it refers to a female character who's physically powerful, or carry heavy artillery of weapons, generally being someone who's more than just a nice arse bouncing around the room. Its meaning is ambiguous, its usage often prescriptive and controlling. And sometimes it points in entirely the wrong direction.

 

Lara Croft being a seemingly iconic character, who's known for being a bad-ass, because she carries a bunch of guns and isn't afraid to use them despite her personality being entirely summarized as flirty-tease or no-time-for-bull-****-action-girl -- Adding unto that, her design looked like a cross between Betty Boop and a broom with two footballs tied to it.

 

She has since gone through a massive make-over with the release of the reboot, where her body is somewhat more down-to-the-earth proportioned, with no oversized breast -- That was enough to warrant her a positive response and going from sex object to admirable survivor.

Bayonetta stands in stark contrast to all of this though. She has all the absurd features of old Lara but in opposition to the old ways, she chooses to embrace these exercises, her bizarre proportioned body, the inappropriate high heels, she utilizes it all as a weapon to control and manipulate her enemies. 

A first glance would be enough to dismiss Bayonetta as another useless sexualized character, with the questionable camera shots of her undercourage but on the contrary; There's more to it. She isn't a damsel in distress, submissive towards any male co-leads or even feel like she's written as stock character prize at the expense of someone else. She feels more like a power trip for and about women. Through her overt sexuality, her acceptance and love of her own body, Bayonetta makes the men in the game (and possible some players) uncomfortable. During the story sequences, male agents of God become stuttering fools in her presence; she owns and shows off her body, she makes no apologies for liking lollipops, high heels or even being herself, she dances and straddles her foes; the camera often points upwards so that she is in effect thrusting her vagina into the face of the player (admittedly, these camera shots became tiring and a bit too much as it went on)

 

A character like the rebooted Lara is forcefully placed into a life-and-death situation, as a means of development, which involves in her getting the litteral **** kicked out of her most of the time. The alleged 'maturation process' feels more or less like a graduation from doubting, guilt-ridden girlhood into lean, mean, psychopathy. The constant resort to violence and the somewhat weak seemingly-hesitant apologies made by her, as she takes her first kill, is meant to portray the violence as gritty and horrible -- when 15 minutes later you find yourself in an escpable sequence of "chest-high-walls-shooting-gallery", where Lara has to gun down other survivors with any equipment she sees fit. It feels a bit preposterous and out of tune with how Lara is portrayed as well. It's almost like she's making some sort of ironic statement about the icky inconsistent handling with the game's violence.

 

Not to mention that supposed "development" from doubtful naive archieologist to bad-ass survivor is partially derived from constant reassurances and platitudes by a male bloke, and self-proclaimed father figure, Conrad whatshisface, with recurring lines such as "You can do this! You're a Croft!". It implies that Lara's growth isn't out of self-realization or any sharper understanding of herself as a person, but because her last name is Croft, which she got from her father, who is bad-ass.. because he's a Croft.

 

See here's something interesting to note as well -- Because the above stuff is reversed in Bayonetta as well. In the first game, Bayo comes across a little girl who is seemingly connected to her in more ways than one. She refers to Bayo as mother, and Bayo grows an attachment to her, but without ever abandoning the extravagant disposition of hers we've come to know.

 

One of the main points have basically been that Tomb Raider gives off the wrong impression that Lara is vulnerable and traumatic experiences are synonymous with character growth. The missing link between survivor and damsel-in-distress. Perhaps the problem lies in that Tomb Raider didn't compromise enough with itself. Disregarding all that though, I actually liked Tomb Raider for what it was trying to do outside of not doing enough with the gameplay and its violence, plus its message, where it ends up sending a different message. I hope it's better with the sequel. I want more games with female leads, who are written as people/characters first and nothing else. Where pre-conceptions are kicked into a bin somewhere, and the focus lies on telling a good story with non-compromising characters, some who can happen to be female or not. It would be nice to see more female protagonists etc etc. But it's safe to say that Bayonetta has none of this. She's in control of herself, her being a woman, and she does it all with confidence.

 

Anyway, I feel what all of this relates to in the current discussion is in regards to how presentation and condoning sensitive topics are marginally different.  The representation is key and I feel Sarkeesian has missed all of that, in regards to the Dragon Age example, among a few other things (did she comment on Bayonetta?). The Dragon Age sample was more or less the representative message of depicting irrational hatred towards other races and how that effects societal class, how it functions in accordance with the world. But I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone that in here..

[Bayonet Hipshot]

One cannot expect radical feminists and marxist feminist to make much sense or to be rational or to even think.

 

It is in their nature to lie, to con, to take things out of context, to misrepresent, to paint everything in terms of their cult ideology and to hate men and women who do not conform to their viewpoints.

 

Sarkeesian's viewpoint has been debunked and proven to be false by many on and off YouTube. Examples of some notable ones include Thunderfoot  and Sargon of Akkad. 

 

If you want to listen to a rational and logical feminist, check out Christina Hoff Summers. She is one of the few sane and rational feminist out there. 

 

Here are some of her works. Compare them with Sarkeesian's work. Enjoy.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Bioware games are the least misogynistic games that I have ever played. Their games are also one of the least misandric games I have ever played. Both men and women in Bioware games, regardless of races and sexualities, are portrayed as capable of being good, doing good, being evil and doing evil. 

 

At the end of the day, one treats the irrational and the foolish with indifference and the rational and logical with respect. Sarkeesian should be treated with indifference because she is the female equivalent of Jack Thompson.

[Overdosing]

Anita on Stephen Colbert:

 

[Clover Rider]

So radical and "marxist" in that clip.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

So radical and "marxist" in that clip.

 

[metatheurgist]

I believe from her prospective that there is misogyny in Bio games. She is right.
I do not believe that it is problematic in Bio games. It is use as part of a story line written for adults and it has consequences.
I do believe that after generations of being told that something is a certain way and then finding out it is not, that there will be blurred lines especially by those that are most impacted by change. Some will go overboard and some will deny that there is a problem at all.

It is valid to depict misogyny in art, to examine the issues involved and confront them, without being misogynistic. She's wrong in this case but as David Gaider said, she's entitled to her opinion.

[Overdosing]

About the use of Dragon Age: Origins, I can completely understand how she bullshitted the use of that to prove her point on "misogynistic" games. Since she took the City Elf origin prologue and saw that one thematically nontrivial short scene with Vaughan, she stopped playing the game and disregarded the HOURS UPON HOURS UPON HOURS of other content in the game, on top of the DLC and the sequel, and used it in her claim.

 

Yep. Nice try trying to make a **** out of gamers. Her extremely picky attitude contributes to why feminism isn't taken very seriously.

[Seboist]

Has Anita said how the ability to punch the reporter in Mass Effect proves Bioware are bigots? Because that sounds like something she'd say.

 

That's actually a good example of how Bioware is a firm believer in gender equality. Note how Sheploo punches her signifying that he considers her as an equal, as opposed to smacking her and showing that he considers her beneath him.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It is valid to depict misogyny in art, to examine the issues involved and confront them, without being misogynistic. She's wrong in this case but as David Gaider said, she's entitled to her opinion.

 

She can have her opinions, however irrational or illogical or out of context they might be. The problem I have with her is that she thinks she is entitled to them, she tries to impose her standards which are based on her opinions on how games or how gamers should be like.

 

What's more, she gets to spread her opinions and yet refuses to address any of the numerous criticisms of her opinions even after her opinions and claims have been debunked, proven to be false and proven to be out of context, with this latest Bioware games are misogynist nonsense. 

 

You can have your opinion and perspective. But you are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

 

Sarkeesian's opinions are not informed, taken out of context, not logical, not rational and not supported by data. She can have those opinions but she not entitled to them and she definitely is not entitled to be given a platform to just spread them while ignoring criticisms to her opinions. 

 

History is full with people who think they are entitled to whatever opinion they have and entitled to spread whatever opinion they have with little to no examination or opposition. Most of them time,it then ends badly for the rest of us. 

[Seboist]

Good vids by Sargon of Akkad on Anita the huckster.

 

 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The problem I have with her is that she tries to impose her standards which are based on her opinions on how games or how gamers should be like.

I initially scoffed at this, but didn't EA hire Sarkeesian as a consultant for Mirror's Edge 2?

I don't have specific quotes or details, but I remember her saying that the original Mirror's Edge ought to have a simplified control scheme because the original was too hard and thus, prejudiced against women.

Or that the non-combat focus of the game night be problematic because it might imply that women should run away from conflict.

Can someone confirm?

[Inquisitor Recon]

But I thought "gamers were dead" so how can gamers be threatening her? Are gamers undead?

[Carcharoth42]

But I thought "gamers were dead" so how can gamers be threatening her? Are gamers undead?

Gamers never die. We respawn.

[vortex216]

     I don't think at all Anita deserves the hate she's getting, but I thoroughly disagree with her opinions. Often she cherry-picks facts and ignores the whole truth to support her argument, which is not right. She brings up Dragon Age as an example for misogyny, citing the City Elf origin. However, if you choose to be female, your a badass, saving yourself, chopping through evil rapist guards, and go on to saving the world!

      Using this kind of logic, you could say Ellie from TLOU is an example of misogyny! After all, she's a plot device. Something to be protected and saved for the good of man-kind (bit of a reach, but you get my point). She does this kind of thing more than once, and if she wants her arguments to become more valid, and get more positive attention, she should look for actual cases of mistreating women in games.

      It's wonderful that gaming is becoming a thing that anyone can enjoy, AND have a variety of main protagonists, so anyone can find someone they can relate to whether they are woman, black, gay, whatever. But misleading people, and giving half-truths are good for no one.

[Neoleviathan]

Sometimes I'm surprised the Asari aren't the most attacked. Maybe it's just because Fox News already touched that way back when. I can see outsiders taking the Asari at face value. The sci fi trope of colorful sexy aliens( like things that start with Star), the trope of sexually inlightened space women( Ringworld, Firefly). A race that go through a stripper phase, even in game characters comment on that. Even their dark side is sexually charged. I feel you could say that the Asari are displayed that way they are not merely as a love letter to old scifi tropes but more importantly to see if the player could look past the bias & mystique surrounding these weird aliens which Humanity is just getting used to. All the species were kinda like that. Tropes are harmful if their execution is bad. Context & execution shouldn't be ignored. Saying Bioware stories are misogynistic because they depict horrible things or use tropes is close to saying something like Twelve Years a Slave is racist for depicting the horrible conditions people faced back then. It's like these people saying Dreamfall Chapters is bad for having themes that were too "sjw", & saying those kind of things shouldn't be in games. I've been really annoyed since hearing DC was having to deal with that!

How come no one is after Cartoon Network as hard as they are coming on to games though? Accused of cancelling a show because too many icky girls are watching, refusing to market toys to a female audience, & complained about female characters getting too much time in the show... If you were going to point & yell mysogyny at something, right there, point point! Why attack Bioware before something like that?

[Allan Schumacher]

Hey guys just as a general comment, from here on please supplement links and videos with a contribution of your own detailing why you think the link is interesting/relevant (or why you think it's not!).

 

I won't go back to get all the other ones just to keep the context there, but ideally I prefer it if people are sharing their own thoughts on the matter rather than having several posts that are just links to videos or essays that people might already be familiar with.  Thanks.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I believe there was something along those lines. The Fine Young Capitalists or something? It was about funding a community voted woman with ideas to make a game without forcing them to spend their own money to do it.

It was initially turfed by games media websites before being funded by a pack of sock puppets or something. It's not really relevant to the thread though, so I'll recommend you conduct your own research on the issue. I'll be glad to help once I get home and have access to my PC.

Also, I like to believe there aren't women gamers and men gamers, just gamers.

It's off topic so I won't elaborate but generally speaking, identity politics is the worst sort of cancer in public discourse. I say that as a minority from an immigrant family.

[TurianRebel212]

EA is love, EA life.