392 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Gamers never die. We respawn.

 

Damn straight ! 

 

It just boggles my mind and saddens to see video games being attacked on like this. I mean, in a game, your skill is all that matters. Your reproductive organs, hips-to-waist ratios be damned.

 

To be good at a game, you play and you practice. You pick up a platform be it PC or Console or Tablet or Phone and you just play. This risk of being exposed to harm is also far less than most form of play. 

 

It is also one of them most free-market form of play out there with something for everyone, ranging from simple cake baking simulators to engaging Indie games to big budget AA powerhouse to even, sex games. There is something for everyone's taste out there. 

 

It is one of the most meritocratic. safest, most equal and most diverse form of play there is out there.  I find it hard to think of any other form of play or fantasizing or socializing that can come close to match it.

 

Sure, it is not a perfect utopia but then again what is or what was ? What other form of play or entertainment is a perfect utopia or was a perfect utopia ? 

 

Then now you have people saying that games are misgoynistic when they are not, games are not inclusive when they are, gamers are dead, gamers are over and what have you when they are not. Its like the old days all over again where you had people labeling gamers as violent or loser nerds in their parents basement or unsociable fools. 

 

Sometimes I look at it and feel just tired and burned out. All I want and I am sure what most if not all of us want is to just play video games for the fun and the entertainment of it.

 

If anything, the recent portrayal of Gamergate in the media, Sarkeesian with her irrational opinions, Jack Thompson with his gamers are violent rhetoric and how gamers were viewed in the old days show one thing:- That games and gamers will never be fully mainstream or fully accepted by society and world at large, despite how profitable it is or how inclusive it is or how free-market it is. IMO, games and gamers will always be viewed as rebels, as non-conformists and as odd. 

 

& you know what ? I think that is okay. I think that is good. I am perfectly fine with games and gamers being looked as rebels, as non-conformists.

 

It is also my opinion that games and gamers should stop pursuing acceptance and validation by the mainstream media and mainstream society because it has been decades now and we haven't got it. All we get is one type of attack, shaming and branding after another. We should just do our own thing that is play games, enjoy them and have fun. 

 

Gamer & Proud.

 

Cheers. 

 

[Star fury]

Sarkeesian made a really wrong choice attacking Bioware and accusing them of sexism/misoginy. Bioware is a shining beacon of political correctness.

That said Sarkeesian claims she likes video games, then she's filmed saying she doesn't like games and doesn't play them. Therefore her opinion about videogames is irrelevant because of her lies. It's still funny how her biased videos with cherry picked evidence and lies get $30 000. If you want to support her, don't let me stop you, she needs to pay the bills.

Watch this video to see how she cherry picks her evidence.

[Star fury]

There are many prominent examples of misogyny in gaming. Going through all of them would take longer than just one segment.
I think it might be beneficial in particular to point out Bioware's failings on this issue because they are and probably will listen to the criticisms.

Provide examples of Bioware failings with misoginy and sexism with sources.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@Star Fury. 

 

Yeah, exactly. That's the most irrational thing. If she decided to say, go after some other developer like say, Ubisoft and the female assassin debacle for AC:Unity, there can be some tiny merit to what she is saying.

 

But she went after Bioware. I mean, its Bioware. The developer who go out of their way to make their games as inclusive and try to cater to as much demographic as they can. The developer who is not misogynistic, not misandric and not misanthropic. Sure Bioware has made mistakes but none of the mistakes involve sex or gender or representation at all. 

 

Sigh...When she mentioned Bioware and the City Elf thing, I just facepalmed and headdesked myself. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Opening a thread in off topic in deference to Fernando Melo here: http://forum.bioware...men/?p=17622268

As some of you may be aware, Anita Sarkeesian (the face of feminist frequency, a web series of feminist critiques on pop culture like video games) recently went on the Colbert Report to talk about feminist issues in gaming.

During the interview, she specifically singled out BioWare (through Dragon Age) as a 'prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry'.

Do you feel this claim by Sarkeesian is fair/unfair? Do you think BioWare is problematic when it comes to certain type of content? Do you believe they perpetuate misogyny in the gaming industry? Whether intentional or not. Discuss here.

Please take care to discuss the issue with civility as per Melo's request and don't use this topic to bring up irrelevant side topics. Thank you.

 

I did just want to share my own, personal perspective on this since it's come up a few times.  I just rewatched the clip to remember specifically where DAO was mentioned, and I think it's important to point out that the clip was shown before the brief interview with Anita came up.  I'm not privy to the reasoning why our game ended up being the one shown, but it was a clip to a different segment on a different channel and there's no real telling the specifics for why that clip was used. It could be simple and innocuous.  And unless it's in the Tropes video she herself made, it doesn't actually mention it as a "prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry" but was part of the other fellow's discussion of violence towards women in games.

 

 

When I saw the segment I mostly chuckled when it came up.  I don't really take the critique much differently than if someone came onto the forum here and said it to me directly.  I think it's part of the challenge because her videos try to speak more towards gaming as a whole, but examples by their nature specifically call out individual titles.  I think it's also why she wasn't keen on calling out 3 games when Stephen prompted her... as that'd just bring extra scrutiny to the games specifically especially given the wider audience that will have less context.

 

 

It's mostly caused me to just look at the scene and examine it.  Rape is a sensitive subject and I don't think it's a bad thing to reflect on the instances where it comes up in our games.  For myself, I can look at something like Hespith which is much more haunting and dark, and as a result also more interesting.  Vaughn's depiction is a bit more moustache twirling evil silliness I think.  Just sort of leveraging a trope to establish that he's an evil dude without much effort.  Some have said it's kind of lazy, which is probably also a valid critique.  Some think that it's fine and it's a small part, which they're welcome to state as well.

 

What's interesting, for me, is when stepping back and just discussing that scene with some fans is hearing about ways that it did and didn't work for people.  For example I have heard several people mention that as a male elf, it come across as much more cliche.  As a female elf, however, it's much more interesting because now it's the victim that has the agency since the player is in control, and I know a lot of people who found it very refreshing and satisfying to give Vaughn his comeuppance as the character as it's a role not typically experienced by players.  Which is interesting and perhaps a conversation I wouldn't have had if it hadn't come up in her latest video.

 

 

From a content perspective I think some of her examples work well. Other examples don't work as well, and it's mostly just a talking point.  I do watch her videos, but I also take feedback I read here and reflect on it too, so it's just another piece on the pile of feedback for me.  I don't feel like she accused me or BioWare of being sexist or misogynistic by pointing it out.  I don't think a developer has to be those things to put content in the game.  I see it purely as a critique of the content itself.

 

 

Agree? Disagree?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Fellas, let's not go too off topic. This is about Anita Sarkeesian coming to the conclusion that BioWare is perpetuating a misogynist by containing problematic content.

While GamerGate is tangentially related, I would suggest that all those who want to learn more about it look for that information themselves and come to their own conclusion about it.

A good starting point is David Pakman's interview with John Bain (TotalBiscuit), or Sargon of Akkad's "Art of Gamergate" video.

But seeing as a) it is not the direct topic and it is a controversial topic that is not up for discussion here, I would ask everyone to refrain from discussing it.

Thanks.

Now if you'll excuse me, my hot pocket is ready.

[Star fury]

One cannot expect radical feminists and marxist feminist to make much sense or to be rational or to even think.

It is in their nature to lie, to con, to take things out of context, to misrepresent, to paint everything in terms of their cult ideology and to hate men and women who do not conform to their viewpoints.

Sarkeesian's viewpoint has been debunked and proven to be false by many on and off YouTube. Examples of some notable ones include Thunderfoot and Sargon of Akkad.

If you want to listen to a rational and logical feminist, check out Christina Hoff Summers. She is one of the few sane and rational feminist out there.

Here are some of her works. Compare them with Sarkeesian's work. Enjoy.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Bioware games are the least misogynistic games that I have ever played. Their games are also one of the least misandric games I have ever played. Both men and women in Bioware games, regardless of races and sexualities, are portrayed as capable of being good, doing good, being evil and doing evil.

At the end of the day, one treats the irrational and the foolish with indifference and the rational and logical with respect. Sarkeesian should be treated with indifference because she is the female equivalent of Jack Thompson.

Right wing element of Gamergate greatly disturbs me, while I support it's goal against corruption in game "journalism" and unhealthy relationship between game developers and game bloggers, some critique of "leftists" and "marxists" is stupid and annoying. I had to unsubscribe from Adam Baldwin's twitter because of his right wing drivel.

Not all leftists support political correctness and not all of them are "social justice warriors", which is another stupid label.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I did just want to share my own, personal perspective on this since it's come up a few times. I just rewatched the clip to remember specifically where DAO was mentioned, and I think it's important to point out that the clip was shown before the brief interview with Anita came up. I'm not privy to the reasoning why our game ended up being the one shown, but it was a clip to a different segment on a different channel and there's no real telling the specifics for why that clip was used. It could be simple and innocuous. And unless it's in the Tropes video she herself made, it doesn't actually mention it as a "prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry" but was part of the other fellow's discussion of violence towards women in games.


When I saw the segment I mostly chuckled when it came up. I don't really take the critique much differently than if someone came onto the forum here and said it to me directly. I think it's part of the challenge because her videos try to speak more towards gaming as a whole, but examples by their nature specifically call out individual titles. I think it's also why she wasn't keen on calling out 3 games when Stephen prompted her... as that'd just bring extra scrutiny to the games specifically especially given the wider audience that will have less context.


It's mostly caused me to just look at the scene and examine it. Rape is a sensitive subject and I don't think it's a bad thing to reflect on the instances where it comes up in our games. For myself, I can look at something like Hespith which is much more haunting and dark, and as a result also more interesting. Vaughn's depiction is a bit more moustache twirling evil silliness I think. Just sort of leveraging a trope to establish that he's an evil dude without much effort. Some have said it's kind of lazy, which is probably also a valid critique. Some think that it's fine and it's a small part, which they're welcome to state as well.

What's interesting, for me, is when stepping back and just discussing that scene with some fans is hearing about ways that it did and didn't work for people. For example I have heard several people mention that as a male elf, it come across as much more cliche. As a female elf, however, it's much more interesting because now it's the victim that has the agency since the player is in control, and I know a lot of people who found it very refreshing and satisfying to give Vaughn his comeuppance as the character as it's a role not typically experienced by players. Which is interesting and perhaps a conversation I wouldn't have had if it hadn't come up in her latest video.


From a content perspective I think some of her examples work well. Other examples don't work as well, and it's mostly just a talking point. I do watch her videos, but I also take feedback I read here and reflect on it too, so it's just another piece on the pile of feedback for me.


Agree? Disagree?

I don't really have an opinion on Anita beyond thinking that cherry picking points and intentionally highlighting scenarios out of context does more to damage the image of gamers, games and the industry than the minority of genuine misogynists out there.

Art is highly contextual and if we want games to be seen as art, nothing ought to be off limits and seen properly in context.

I'm not opposed to feminist criticism and think it can do a lot for the industry (such as how to write female protagonists and getting rid of the side character waifu syndrome). But feminist criticism made in bad faith does no one any favors.

To add, if someone points at a game and squeals "that's sexist/racist/offensive, my initial reaction is "so what?"

I am glad you just see her as one voice of many, though. The way the media seems to latch onto her without critical thinking or discussion of her points (as if they're gospel) does disturb me, especially since companies smaller than BioWare might live or die by the press.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Also, I admit I was rather clickbait-y/provocative with my OP, while the clip implies that Dragon Age is a prominent example of misogyny (otherwise it wouldn't be shown, yes?), it wasn't directly said so I shouldn't have tried to portray it as such. Apologies.

[LPPrince]

I read Sarkeesian's opinions in a different way.

 

But before I talk about how I feel about Sarkeesian's critiques on games, I want to get something out of the way first and bring up another point. Let me preface the following by saying that I haven't ever used a pro or anti-gamergate hashtag-

 

But I'm getting real tired of seeing gamergate supporters getting lumped in with trolls.

 

There are several groups at play here-

 

1. Actual gamergaters who want to see game developers and reviewers held to a certain standard

2. People who want women to be more involved and accepted in the gaming industry

3. The outspoken people like Sarkeesian, Quinn, various game developers and reviewers, etc etc that are making noise

4. The masses that get swayed by those with the loudest voices

5. The trolls who make the threats that plague people involved in this mess

 

Groups 1 and 2 have valid reasoning behind their online motivations for gathering up and wanting change. Hell, some folks are part of both. But because Group 5 attacked Group 3, the latter has painted Group 1 as being ALL like Group 5, when that is absolutely not the case. Because they're loud and they push this ideology on Group 4, EVERYONE is attacking Group 1 which is asinine and illogical.

 

I hate seeing it. The same thing happened after 9/11.

 

A few people decided to fly planes into buildings to kill thousands of people, and they did it in the name of Islam. The loudest voices placed the blame on Islam itself, and then everyone who called themselves Muslim(some what, 1.2 billion people or something mental?) or anyone who was brown in skin tone suddenly became "one of the bad guys" even though they were on the same side as the victims.

 

The same stupid logic is happening here to gamergaters. Innocent people who want better game journalism and integrity from the industry are being accused of being on the same side as the people making threats, being lumped in with broad claims insinuating they'll all do the same thing.

 

It makes it harder and harder to see things from the perspectives of Sarkeesian, the devs, the reviewers, and co the more venomous they come across to gamers, including me. More and more, I simply don't want to see things their way.

 

If someone has to paint an innocent group of people as all being part of the problem, screw them.

 

___________________

 

Now, of the two big things involved in this, let me cover Sarkeesian's viewpoints and how I see them-

 

Basically, I can't agree with her entirely. There's sound logic in some of what she says, but far too often she goes off the rails, completely misinterpreting and falsely representing something to get her points across. You hear "cherry-picking" a lot, and its true;its as if when I'm watching her videos she's trying to tunnel-vision me into seeing something her way when there's far more to it than what she covers.

 

Its manipulation, and I don't like it. Regularly I'll hear people talk about strong female characters and why they're strong- Commander Shepard, Bayonetta, Zelda, the list goes on;yet Sarkeesian has a convenient way to take all these strong characters, strong in their own ways, and make them come across as negative, as if someone looking up to them or admiring them is somehow seeing things the wrong way.

 

She's extreme, and its reached the point where after her poorly worded tweets recently about male culture(making no mention of female culture also being "toxic"), I've realized that whatever good intentions Sarkeesian has, she is not capable of expressing them in such a way to cause actual positive change. She's gone so far as to aggravate many female gamers themselves, and that is the exact opposite of what she should be doing.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that game journalism has taken to her as a victim and is using her plight against the trolls that plague her as a convenient "out" against facing the actual point behind gamergate.

 

Its easy to paint gamergaters as the "boogeymen" when they're holding you accountable.

 

I find this whole situation sad, as in reality everyone should be banding together to support more women in games, more inclusion in the industry, better standards for game media, journalism, and better standards for game development. 

 

Instead, we have a bunch of people claiming they were bullied turning around and bullying innocent people that are on their side.

 

____________________

 

Sometimes, humanity sucks.

[SlottsMachine]

Gamers never die. We respawn.

 

This is the only post BiowareMod02 has every *liked*. Here's to you! 

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I did just want to share my own, personal perspective on this since it's come up a few times.  I just rewatched the clip to remember specifically where DAO was mentioned, and I think it's important to point out that the clip was shown before the brief interview with Anita came up.  I'm not privy to the reasoning why our game ended up being the one shown, but it was a clip to a different segment on a different channel and there's no real telling the specifics for why that clip was used. It could be simple and innocuous.  And unless it's in the Tropes video she herself made, it doesn't actually mention it as a "prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry" but was part of the other fellow's discussion of violence towards women in games.

 

 

When I saw the segment I mostly chuckled when it came up.  I don't really take the critique much differently than if someone came onto the forum here and said it to me directly.  I think it's part of the challenge because her videos try to speak more towards gaming as a whole, but examples by their nature specifically call out individual titles.  I think it's also why she wasn't keen on calling out 3 games when Stephen prompted her... as that'd just bring extra scrutiny to the games specifically especially given the wider audience that will have less context.

 

 

It's mostly caused me to just look at the scene and examine it.  Rape is a sensitive subject and I don't think it's a bad thing to reflect on the instances where it comes up in our games.  For myself, I can look at something like Hespith which is much more haunting and dark, and as a result also more interesting.  Vaughn's depiction is a bit more moustache twirling evil silliness I think.  Just sort of leveraging a trope to establish that he's an evil dude without much effort.  Some have said it's kind of lazy, which is probably also a valid critique.  Some think that it's fine and it's a small part, which they're welcome to state as well.

 

What's interesting, for me, is when stepping back and just discussing that scene with some fans is hearing about ways that it did and didn't work for people.  For example I have heard several people mention that as a male elf, it come across as much more cliche.  As a female elf, however, it's much more interesting because now it's the victim that has the agency since the player is in control, and I know a lot of people who found it very refreshing and satisfying to give Vaughn his comeuppance as the character as it's a role not typically experienced by players.  Which is interesting and perhaps a conversation I wouldn't have had if it hadn't come up in her latest video.

 

 

From a content perspective I think some of her examples work well. Other examples don't work as well, and it's mostly just a talking point.  I do watch her videos, but I also take feedback I read here and reflect on it too, so it's just another piece on the pile of feedback for me.  I don't feel like she accused me or BioWare of being sexist or misogynistic by pointing it out.  I don't think a developer has to be those things to put content in the game.  I see it purely as a critique of the content itself.

 

 

Agree? Disagree?

 

I will paraphrase Knights of Colour on this :- To add, if someone points at a game and squeals "that's sexist, racist, offensive and violent", my reaction will "So what?" or "Do you have a point to make?" 

 

That is my reaction to this. We have seen well researched peer reviewed studies that show no correlation and no significant impact between video games and violence.

 

I honestly think if we did the same for video games and racism or video games and sexism, we will not see any correlation or any significant impact. 

 

We live in an environment today where people can just lay claim offense to something without offering further rational explanation.

 

As for the rape scene or the implied in City Elf Origin story, pointing out that there is rape and this is misogynistic makes no rational sense. It does not do any tangible thing. What purpose did the rape scene serve ? What did the rape scene imply within the context of the game ? 

 

Sarkeesian did not even attempt to answer such questions. I doubt that those questions even occurred in her mind. 

 

The rape scene or the implied rape in the City Elf Origin shows the tension between the City Elves and humans. It shows the lack of rights, the lack of a fair justice system. It showed Thedas as a harsh and dangerous world, especially to the City Elves. Yet, at the same time, it showed that, even in the face of such evil, one can, by their actions, rise, fight back and attack.

 

No explanation of such things, no attempt to try to understand the role the scene played. Just point and label. 

 

Things like violence and on-the-surface sexism can and should be used as story elements, especially in games. Games are fantastical in nature that is to say it is imaginary. It involves our thoughts and minds. It allows us to explore things that cannot be explored in reality.

 

Just pointing at it, slapping a label on it without scrutiny is a form of thought control. You are essentially trying to censor how people think, how people imagine, how people fantasize and how people tell stories. You are trying to impose your view of thinking, imagination, fantasy and storytelling on someone else without any logic. This is no different from the Orwellian Thought Police. 

 

I am glad you did not take it seriously.

[Han Shot First]

I did just want to share my own, personal perspective on this since it's come up a few times.  I just rewatched the clip to remember specifically where DAO was mentioned, and I think it's important to point out that the clip was shown before the brief interview with Anita came up.  I'm not privy to the reasoning why our game ended up being the one shown, but it was a clip to a different segment on a different channel and there's no real telling the specifics for why that clip was used. It could be simple and innocuous.  And unless it's in the Tropes video she herself made, it doesn't actually mention it as a "prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry" but was part of the other fellow's discussion of violence towards women in games.

 

 

 

Here is the original vid where the footage of Dragon Age was taken from:

 

[LPPrince]

Ishten, I'm gonna repost these videos you linked, because after watching them, OH MY GOD THIS LADY IS YES

 

 

 

BE MY MOM, LADY

 

MY SECOND MOM, I ALREADY HAVE ONE

 

AND MY ACTUAL MOM IS A CASUAL GAMER(Facebook+iPad games, folks)

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@LP Prince:- Christian Hoff Summers is known as Based Mom for a very good reason. She is like the real life Wynne. Genuinely moderate and rational. She is focused on facts and figures as opposed to just feel-good stuff. 

[Morroian]

During the interview, she specifically singled out BioWare (through Dragon Age) as a 'prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry'.
 

 

I think this is a mischaracterisation, in her actual video she singles out a scene as an example.

[LPPrince]

@LP Prince:- Christian Hoff Summers is known as Based Mom for a very good reason. She is like the real life Wynne. Genuinely moderate and rational. She is focused on facts and figures as opposed to just feel-good stuff. 

 

I'm half tempted to start calling her Based Mom because MY GOD

[Obadiah]

Right after showing the City Elf origin scene from Dragon Age: Origins, Colbert asked her how the scenes could be different to be less misogynistic or a disempowering trophy depiction, and I specifically remember her answering that: maybe the female could save herself, and I thought, uh... she does!

I assume there was some sort of editing error of the interview.

P.S. Also, Anora was nobody's snowflake.

[L. Han]

BioWare games often have subtle discussions of real world problems. I fail to understand why one would go and accuse these games of being 'sexist' or anything like that along those lines when they are pretty much on the same side: raising awareness.

 

I really don't get it. Maybe this is a western/US thing.

[LPPrince]

Right after showing the City Elf origin scene from Dragon Age: Origins, Colbert asked her how the scenes could be different to be less misogynistic or a disempowering trophy depiction, and I specifically remember her answering that: maybe the female could save herself, and I thought, uh... she does!

I assume there was some sort of editing error of the interview.

P.S. Also, Anora was nobody's snowflake.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Anita had no idea that she's THAT off the mark. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

Also, I subscribed to Based Mom.

 

If you want people to not just hear you but listen, you gotta be rational. 

 

Christina Hoff Sommers is rational, at least about this.

[Mr.House]

Anita should play Fate/Stay Night, she would flip her **** at one part in the game(which only happens on the PC version)

[Zubie]

 

I love Sargon of Akkad's videos. The effort he's put in to support GamerGate has been amazing.

[Seboist]

I love Sargon of Akkad's videos. The effort he's put in to support GamerGate has been amazing.

 

Sargon's a good soldier within the GG ranks. His work on exposing the DiGRA cabal in particular was splendid.

[KaiserShep]

I guess Anita was trying to avoid the fruit that's hanging so much lower than BioWare in this department to avoid being so obvious, or trying to bank on BioWare's popularity or something. I'm not certain. Whatever the reason, it's certainly not the most sensible target.