392 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

I wouldn't be surprised if Anita had no idea that she's THAT off the mark. It wouldn't be the first time.
 
Also, I subscribed to Based Mom.
 
If you want people to not just hear you but listen, you gotta be rational. 
 
Christina Hoff Sommers is rational, at least about this.

It is indeed very hard to find truly open minded people on the internet, as people can claim to be rational but infact can be just a bigoted as the people they are criticizing. A person should not be judge based on their race, sex, religion etc. but rather the individual themselves.

[felipejiraya]

Christina Hoff Summers was the only good thing that appeared on this Gamergate debacle, her opinions are truly thoughtful and well researched. 

 

My only complain is that AEI is a conservative think-tank and as a libertarian I feel uneasy giving them views.

[mybudgee]

It is indeed very hard to find truly open minded people on the internet, as people can claim to be rational but infact can be just a bigoted as the people they are criticizing. A person should not be judge based on their race, sex, religion etc. but rather the individual themselves.

Keep in mind: when people have the convenience of anonymity they often speak from the heart. When these same people are held accountable & their actions/words affect their reputation, they censor themselves.

[In Exile]

It is to the point where I feel they are claiming any sexualisation of women in media is an example of 'male gaze', and by extension, misogyny.

...

For those who are no doubt more well versed in feminism than I am, how is she able to reconcile those views with the view that feminism is sex positive because it ties into liberation and empowerment where women shouldn't be shamed for being sexy or sexual.

 

The sophisticated answer is that feminism isn't some single ideology, but rather a mash-up of views from different authors across a range of subject areas. So the extent to which sex positivism is considered an aspect of feminism depends on who you ask. 

 

That being said, there's a substantial distinction between sexualizing women for the purpose of titilating men and an attitude that's sex positive, which is about combat ideas that women who open sex should be demonized. 

[Seboist]

The sophisticated answer is that feminism isn't some single ideology, but rather a mash-up of views from different authors across a range of subject areas. So the extent to which sex positivism is considered an aspect of feminism depends on who you ask. 

 

That being said, there's a substantial distinction between sexualizing women for the purpose of titilating men and an attitude that's sex positive, which is about combat ideas that women who open sex should be demonized. 

 

Of which there's nothing wrong with.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The sophisticated answer is that feminism isn't some single ideology, but rather a mash-up of views from different authors across a range of subject areas. So the extent to which sex positivism is considered an aspect of feminism depends on who you ask.

That being said, there's a substantial distinction between sexualizing women for the purpose of titilating men and an attitude that's sex positive, which is about combat ideas that women who open sex should be demonized.

See, I do agree but evidence points to Anita not finding such a distinction. Like it or not, she has become a prominent figure in the industry to the point where she can actively influence the design of games.

I guess where I'm going with this is how do other feminists feel about Anita and Jonathan's somewhat puritanical view of sexualised women in media.

Because I see zero professional disagreement with her in the games industry and the media, and anyone who does so is branded a misogynist or anti-feminist.

[Drone223]

Keep in mind: when people have the convenience of anonymity they often speak from the heart. When these same people are held accountable & their actions/words affect their reputation, they censor themselves.

Which only adds to the point.

[Dermain]

Wait! You're a girl?

 

Woah! Stop being creepy...

 

*Sips tea while watching vewwy closely where this goes*

Just a little reminder, keep it civil, refrain from name calling, all that Jazz 

Thanks♥
 

 

That's a bit more personality than usual. I am now concerned.

 

That's actually a good example of how Bioware is a firm believer in gender equality. Note how Sheploo punches her signifying that he considers her as an equal, as opposed to smacking her and showing that he considers her beneath him.

 

I will assume this is sarcasm.

 

Gamers never die. We respawn.

 

Unless we get lag, then we never respawn.

 

Right wing element of Gamergate greatly disturbs me, while I support it's goal against corruption in game "journalism" and unhealthy relationship between game developers and game bloggers, some critique of "leftists" and "marxists" is stupid and annoying. I had to unsubscribe from Adam Baldwin's twitter because of his right wing drivel.

Not all leftists support political correctness and not all of them are "social justice warriors", which is another stupid label.

 

Welcome to being human. Everyone labels things, and most of it is unconscious. Of course, if you are actually fully aware of the process you can tell when you're doing it.

 

See, I do agree but evidence points to Anita not finding such a distinction. Like it or not, she has become a prominent figure in the industry to the point where she can actively influence the design of games.

I guess where I'm going with this is how do other feminists feel about Anita and Jonathan's somewhat puritanical view of sexualised women in media.

Because I see zero professional disagreement with her in the games industry and the media, and anyone who does so is branded a misogynist or anti-feminist.

 

Which is a sign that you should not disagree with such a person. It's also a sign that it's probably best to ignore them. 

 

It is indeed very hard to find truly open minded people on the internet, as people can claim to be rational but infact can be just a bigoted as the people they are criticizing. A person should not be judge based on their race, sex, religion etc. but rather the individual themselves.

 

Oh you're an idealist. Well if you're wanting to change the world you best get started now. Lots of world to cover. - Mage in the Mage Origin (the one talking to Niall).

 

When that day finally comes I will jump for joy. Until then it's a nice sentiment.

[Seboist]

Right wing element of Gamergate greatly disturbs me, while I support it's goal against corruption in game "journalism" and unhealthy relationship between game developers and game bloggers, some critique of "leftists" and "marxists" is stupid and annoying. I had to unsubscribe from Adam Baldwin's twitter because of his right wing drivel.

Not all leftists support political correctness and not all of them are "social justice warriors", which is another stupid label.

 

I'm sure that these media hacks like Ben Kuchera, Leigh Alexander, Anita,etc all being left leaning puritans trying to impose their views on devs and on their audiences is one big coinkydink. Their corruption is but a tip of the iceberg that extends beyond "game journalism", which let's face it, was always the "entertainment tonight" of the industry at the best of times(when we weren't being labeled  evil white male dudebro oppressors).

 

Thankfully we have right wingers in GG like Milo who know the score and have been amongst it's greatest assets.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Anita is quite simply a radical.

Anyone who disagrees with her is a mysogonist or anti-feminist.

 

She, and her followers, do not allow neutrality or differing opinions.

They preach, but avoid debate where their views can be actually challenged.

They speak from position of authority  and scientific accuracy without having either.

They consider themselves the only true feminists.

They attack other women and feminists.

 

I have 0 respect for such toxic type of feminism.

 

Feminists like miss Sommers are what all feminists should be like. Collected, rational, inclusive and balanced in approach.

Hell, I call such types of people "equalists" rather than feminists.

[Dermain]

Anita is quite simply a radical.

Anyone who disagrees with her is a mysogonist or anti-feminist.

 

She, and her followers, do not allow neutrality or differing opinions.

They preach, but avoid debate where their views can be actually challenged.

They speak from position of authority  and scientific accuracy without having either.

They consider themselves the only true feminists.

They attack other women and feminists.

 

I have 0 respect for such toxic type of feminism.

 

Feminists like miss Sommers are what all feminists should be like. Collected, rational, inclusive and balanced in approach.

Hell, I call such types of people "equalists" rather than feminists.

 

I have zero respect for anyone who follows anything that you listed regardless of the topic.

 

The media in general tends to do that regardless of whether or not they're left/right/feminist etc, and it appears to be worse on the internet.

[guitarmouse]

Come back to reality, these are games..just games.

 

 

I just want to play them.  Thanks to BioWare that I can play as a woman, with some

great story-lines, especially DAO

[Lotion Soronarr]

Speaking of which....latest news:

 

http://www.reddit.co...ita_threatener/

 

 

SUMMARY :

 

-Brazilian journo Mateus makes several accounts, tags #gamergate and makes disgusting threats to Anita

-GamerGate stands up for Anita, GG'ers get graphic threats as well

-In comes Mateus, a Brazilian game journo. His site uses same links as the spam accounts

-FaceBook matches description; same language, uses same lines, "causes controversy for clicks"

-E-mail Mateus. Sniff IP. Send spam accounts links that sniff IP

-Multiple threaten-er accounts confirmed same IP as Mateus

-FBI called, but they say Anita has to report it herself, Brazil authorities cannot take action otherwise (@sanc called)

-He stops issuing threats out of fear. Continues harassing with click-bait that links to nasty Anita hatred articles.

-I start "#GamerGate Harassment Patrol" & with GG's help get him spam banned on ~4 accounts.

THEN :

-Mateus makes a new account, asks me directly why I keep getting him reported

-We have a convo, he tells me threats are fake, wants to destroy Anita

-He thinks it's funny they give credit "threats made from across country"

-Tells me he'll post another video as Mateus himself

-Video comes up 8 hours later

REACHING ANITA :

-@sanc reached out to Anita multiple times.

-I reach out to Anita days ago telling her we caught a harasser and I'd love to speak to her

-Express that I want him removed as badly as she does

-Other twitter members show support

-No response

-New tweet reaching out, please support!!! https://twitter.com/...895236815888384

IMPORTANCE :

-We confirmed his ID, him saying twitter threats are fake

-Multiple graphic Anita threats confirmed from one source

-Can clear GG's name of a lot twitter harassment they're blamed for

-Still waiting for recognition of receiving the info and action with the authorities

 

 

Still no response whatsoever.

[ruggly]

Right after showing the City Elf origin scene from Dragon Age: Origins, Colbert asked her how the scenes could be different to be less misogynistic or a disempowering trophy depiction, and I specifically remember her answering that: maybe the female could save herself, and I thought, uh... she does!

I assume there was some sort of editing error of the interview.

P.S. Also, Anora was nobody's snowflake.

 

I just listened to the clip, it was a general question of how we could stop making damsels in distress, and she answers that maybe they could save themselves....In which there are plenty of games in which that happen, but ok. Also, while she's not wrong about there being trolls simply attacking women in GG, to claim that that's ALL GG is about is wrong, there are plenty of people wanting better journalism or more women in the industry, they're just being overshadowed. And while I don't really follow GG anymore, I didn't exactly enjoy being lumped into the group of trolls even though I am a female gamer who supports getting more females into the industry and improved jounalism.

 

But I digress. Sorry, I know you said to stay away from GG, OP, but I just had to get that off my chest)

 

Bioware has been very atctive in trying to improve things, and they will make some things that people won't agree with, but it's no reason to sit there and cherry pick that one 'mistake' as being misogynist.  Hell, I know my friend's wife gets mad at me for not seeing things her way and sucking up to Anita since I'm much more flexible about how women are portrayed within games. I believe that devs should be able to make the games they want.  Should they try and work away from certain tropes? Sure. But it's not going to send me into a massive rage if they do use a few.  Ubisoft has every right to not include a female assassin (though the reasons they gave were absolute ****, they should have just said they didn't want to include one), I'll just simply not buy the game, on top of which I've never been able to get interested in the AC series.

 

Sorry, it's still early and I'm not quite awake enough to make a more coherent argument.

[Ridwan]

The con artist has still not responded to any counter videos that deconstructs her arguments. And I find it hilarious that youtube comments have been turned off on her appearance on Colbert.

 

This woman is not a gamer, she's making a big deal out of nothing, and the more attention this con artist gets the more suckers she can fool to give her money to fight some "noble" cause. It's getting sad, really.

[Obadiah]

I agree on the sexual objectification of women in video games. I thought Morrigan (initial outfit), Miranda, EDI in ME3, DA2 Isabella, the butt crack female medium armor in ME1, the female pole dancers, and quite possibly the Asari race, were examples of this - with some sort of explanation added to justify them (except maybe for the medium female armor in ME1). Ok, so really, in the instances I just mentioned, only the stripper pole dancers are characters that are ONLY sexualized window dressing.

But then summer came around here once again, and women were walking around in short shorts and yoga pants, and I thought... hmmm. Are men really doing this? Is it a society thing? Are games just an exaggerated reflection of society?

*Shrug* When we get to the point when Bioware (and video games as a whole) is sexualizing male characters (some ME1 male armor, ME Jacob, and DA Fenris were close, there are probably others out there), then there will at least be parity.

[Fast Jimmy]

Anita is like many others - only pointing out negative examples in her "analysis." It's easy to cherry pick evidence, present your opinion as fact and find every violation of your viewpoint in anything you look at.

It is much harder to point to evidence of someone doing something right, breaking down and going into detail the areas where the presentation, delivery and execution are strong.

People who find fault with everything are alarmists who see shadows in every corner and negativity everywhere and are never objective, accurate nor worth a hoot. This all applies here.

[Star fury]

I'm sure that these media hacks like Ben Kuchera, Leigh Alexander, Anita,etc all being left leaning puritans trying to impose their views on devs and on their audiences is one big coinkydink. Their corruption is but a tip of the iceberg that extends beyond "game journalism", which let's face it, was always the "entertainment tonight" of the industry at the best of times(when we weren't being labeled  evil white male dudebro oppressors).

 

Thankfully we have right wingers in GG like Milo who know the score and have been amongst it's greatest assets.

Not all Gamergate members are trolls and mysoginists, not all left-wingers are like Ben Kuchera or Leigh Alexander. You could also include Jenn Frank who forced the Guardian to write not one but two disclaimers with her conflict of interest.

 

Milo is an excellent investigative journalist, he's also smart and has drive. That said I absolutely deplore his political views but Gamergate can and should use him as a driving force as his articles and disclosure of a secret cabal of gaming bloggers were noteworthy.

 

[Beerfish]

I really hate when nuts get a platform and worse yet get some fame for a platform.  Pretty soon it is not about the actual platform but about stirring the pot.  I wish people would spend more time and energy on the real problems of this world as in the treatment of women in the middle east by certain notorious factions rather than trying to make a name for them self by blasting out luxury excesses (video games) we enjoy in the western world.

[daveliam]

I haven't seen her interview on Colbert yet, but if she's accusing Bioware of being an extreme example of misogyny in the industry, then I'm disappointed.  I don't mind her normally.  She cherry picks her examples and takes some things out of context, but, in general, her message has some validity to it.  However, I cannot imagine calling Bioware an 'extreme example', as I find them to be one of the more consistently inclusive companies.  I'll have to watch the interview to see if this is truly taken in context.  If so, definitely disappointed to hear.

[Mr.House]

I haven't seen her interview on Colbert yet, but if she's accusing Bioware of being an extreme example of misogyny in the industry, then I'm disappointed.  I don't mind her normally.  She cherry picks her examples and takes some things out of context, but, in general, her message has some validity to it.  However, I cannot imagine calling Bioware an 'extreme example', as I find them to be one of the more consistently inclusive companies.  I'll have to watch the interview to see if this is truly taken in context.  If so, definitely disappointed to hear.

She did the same with Hitman and many others, she's very consistent here.

[daveliam]

She did the same with Hitman and many others, she's very consistent here.

 

I'm not familiar with that series.  In fact, I'm not even sure who the developers for that series are.  Are they also consistently inclusive developers? 

[Cassandra Saturn]

I need to ask something from a guy who prob to old to understand all this lol.
 
Male developers make games they would play and for sometime was for a male audience, thats changed fine i understand that an applaud it the more woman that are involved the better games can only benefit as a whole because of it.
 
But if there so many woman disenfranchised so to speak of the games being released, why cant they band together, get on something like kickstarter and develop a game for there audience?
 
Sorry if the answer is so obvious to everyone else, it aint to me, i just dont understand how ppl cant just go "right i dont like these games, there is a audience for what we want so lets go do it ourselfs"
 
Im not trying to upset anyone im just trying to work out why they dont you know make a game that has what they want in it

here are female game developers, they have started to show up since 2012. they can make games the way as it would be viewed with certain audience for gamers. may it be either everyone, kids, teens or adults. it all depends on type of gameplay is designed for.

[slimgrin]

Speaking of which....latest news:

 

http://www.reddit.co...ita_threatener/

 

 

SUMMARY :

 

-Brazilian journo Mateus makes several accounts, tags #gamergate and makes disgusting threats to Anita

-GamerGate stands up for Anita, GG'ers get graphic threats as well

-In comes Mateus, a Brazilian game journo. His site uses same links as the spam accounts

-FaceBook matches description; same language, uses same lines, "causes controversy for clicks"

-E-mail Mateus. Sniff IP. Send spam accounts links that sniff IP

-Multiple threaten-er accounts confirmed same IP as Mateus

-FBI called, but they say Anita has to report it herself, Brazil authorities cannot take action otherwise (@sanc called)

-He stops issuing threats out of fear. Continues harassing with click-bait that links to nasty Anita hatred articles.

-I start "#GamerGate Harassment Patrol" & with GG's help get him spam banned on ~4 accounts.

THEN :

-Mateus makes a new account, asks me directly why I keep getting him reported

-We have a convo, he tells me threats are fake, wants to destroy Anita

-He thinks it's funny they give credit "threats made from across country"

-Tells me he'll post another video as Mateus himself

-Video comes up 8 hours later

REACHING ANITA :

-@sanc reached out to Anita multiple times.

-I reach out to Anita days ago telling her we caught a harasser and I'd love to speak to her

-Express that I want him removed as badly as she does

-Other twitter members show support

-No response

-New tweet reaching out, please support!!! https://twitter.com/...895236815888384

IMPORTANCE :

-We confirmed his ID, him saying twitter threats are fake

-Multiple graphic Anita threats confirmed from one source

-Can clear GG's name of a lot twitter harassment they're blamed for

-Still waiting for recognition of receiving the info and action with the authorities

 

 

Still no response whatsoever.

 

for professional victims, removing the threat is not a good career move.

[BroBear Berbil]

Just watched most of the Colbert interview. The dishonesty was staggering, but I'm not a Colbert fan to begin with so no love lost there.

 

It's not surprising that she threw BioWare under the bus on this, since her criticism is always cherry-picked and her process is far from academic. Why do some members of the games industry, namely EA, crave her approval so much? There is no pleasing this woman.