392 réponses à ce sujet

[Overdosing]

The con artist has still not responded to any counter videos that deconstructs her arguments. And I find it hilarious that youtube comments have been turned off on her appearance on Colbert.
 
This woman is not a gamer, she's making a big deal out of nothing, and the more attention this con artist gets the more suckers she can fool to give her money to fight some "noble" cause. It's getting sad, really.

I know. This video's dislike bar is just...damn. And I completely understand that, because the broader issues weren't explored by neither Colbert not Anita, probably because of time constraints or the appeal of he audience, who probably don't know any of the games Anita used in her claim.

I didn't really expect them any dislikes with Stephen Colbert doing his thing. But the presence of Anita ruined it for him.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I've watched a couple of Anita's videos, and as I recall, she starts with a disclaimer to the effect that it's possible to enjoy many aspects of something and still recognize that it reflects problematic attitudes. So I don't think she's saying that people shouldn't play any of the games she singles out, just that there are problems in how they portray women. As for the "why is this a big deal" school of thought, another point I'd make (and I'm not sure if Anita herself mentions this or not) is that it's possible for perfectly well-meaning people to reflect prejudiced or stereotypical attitudes without even being aware that they're doing it, and that some of these portrayals can subtly reinforce those attitudes among the audience. 

 

I do remember her pointing out a bunch of games where the story is set in motion by a female family member or love interest of a male protagonist being murdered, kidnapped, or otherwise victimized. At first, one might be tempted to respond, "OK, but the murderer/kidnapper is the villain here and the games never pretend otherwise, so how is it offensive to women? After all, bad things happen to good people and the female characters didn't do anything wrong." On the other hand, maybe this sort of setup does reinforce a more general stereotype of women as helpless and needing men to protect them or get them out of bad situations, even if the game writers and players might not be consciously aware of that.

[daveliam]

I've watched a couple of Anita's videos, and as I recall, she starts with a disclaimer to the effect that it's possible to enjoy many aspects of something and still recognize that it reflects problematic attitudes. So I don't think she's saying that people shouldn't play any of the games she singles out, just that there are problems in how they portray women. As for the "why is this a big deal" school of thought, another point I'd make (and I'm not sure if Anita herself mentions this or not) is that it's possible for perfectly well-meaning people to reflect prejudiced or stereotypical attitudes without even being aware that they're doing it, and that some of these portrayals can subtly reinforce those attitudes among the audience. 

 

I do remember her pointing out a bunch of games where the story is set in motion by a female family member or love interest of a male protagonist being murdered, kidnapped, or otherwise victimized. At first, one might be tempted to respond, "OK, but the murderer/kidnapper is the villain here and the games never pretend otherwise, so how is it offensive to women? After all, bad things happen to good people and the female characters didn't do anything wrong." On the other hand, maybe this sort of setup does reinforce a more general stereotype of women as helpless and needing men to protect them or get them out of bad situations, even if the game writers and players might not be consciously aware of that.

 

I think that, ultimately, this post accurately summarizes what she is trying to get across.  Which, to be honest, I don't have an issue with at all.  There's definitely some truth to her message. 

 

I think that some people rightfully point out that she cherry picks her data, which is fine, but then she doesn't really acknowledge context.  This can come across as either disingenuous representation of data or outright dishonesty, depending on how you view her.  To be honest, I have often wondered if people's visceral reaction to her message is more about her as a person and less about what she is saying.

 

All of this being said, the people who have derided her and insulted her and demeaned her and threatened her have only served to push me to be sympathetic towards her.  If people simply said, "Meh, I don't like how she puts her message forward." or "I disagree with her and here's why <with evidence>", I'd understand that.  But when people call her terrible misogynistic names and say she's a charlatan and a criminal and blah, blah, blah, well, that makes me listen less to their side of the story.  And I say that as someone who isn't really a fan of hers to begin with (I'm pretty neutral on her). 

[Milan92]

I can sympathize with her cause, but I think the way she does it isn't great.

[Mercedes-Benz]

There is no misogyny in BioWare's games.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I agree on the sexual objectification of women in video games. I thought Morrigan (initial outfit), Miranda, EDI in ME3, DA2 Isabella, the butt crack female medium armor in ME1, the female pole dancers, and quite possibly the Asari race, were examples of this - with some sort of explanation added to justify them (except maybe for the medium female armor in ME1). Ok, so really, in the instances I just mentioned, only the stripper pole dancers are characters that are ONLY sexualized window dressing.

But then summer came around here once again, and women were walking around in short shorts and yoga pants, and I thought... hmmm. Are men really doing this? Is it a society thing? Are games just an exaggerated reflection of society?

*Shrug* When we get to the point when Bioware (and video games as a whole) is sexualizing male characters (some ME1 male armor, ME Jacob, and DA Fenris were close, there are probably others out there), then there will at least be parity.

 

I give you the asari race.

Other, not so much.

You do realize that there ARE women out there who do dress like that deliberately and like it?
 

[TheChris92]

She did the same with Hitman and many others, she's very consistent here.

Absolution was a bunch of garbage and the scandily clad nuns were odd mostly because the outfits felt out of place and makes no sense in context with the game or their utterly pointless purpose in it -- In fact, they didn't even become a central factor but rather just a bunch of average enemy AI NPCs that 47 could dispatch. The trailer starring these characters felt like pointless fan-service that has no place in Hitman and even the game attest to the fact that they are utterly superficial to the overall game, which wasn't very good anyway. But enough about bad sequels to the excellent Blood Money. Back to Sarkeesian.

[BroBear Berbil]

On the other hand, maybe this sort of setup does reinforce a more general stereotype of women as helpless and needing men to protect them or get them out of bad situations, even if the game writers and players might not be consciously aware of that.

 

This seems to be the conclusion she often comes to, yet is never able to adequately show a correlation between what happens in video games and what happens in real life; specifically how mens' treatment of women is altered by depictions of women in media. She uses weasle words like "studies show", but never cites anything directly in her videos. Instead, she gives you a list of resources - most of which are articles and discussions from other feminists or links to her other videos. Seriously, she cites herself.

 

As for women being helpless...

 

In video games you don't just help women. Almost any game you play, whether the main character is male or not, there's a lot of saving the day involved. That's kind of the whole point of playing a hero. I would also say it's not that uncommon to come across a female character who has lost their family due to some kind of violence, though they're usually not the main character in a game.

 

In real life, I don't know a single woman who doesn't want to live in a society where men are predisposed to help them when in need or give them common courtesies reserved for their gender.

[Seboist]

The Anitas and Leigh Alexanders of the world are just the modern incarnation of this.

 

[Zeroth Angel]

Misogyny in Bioware games?

 

God, this woman has no idea what she is talking about. Bioware might not be the perfect developer but if there is one thing that is not in their games, it is misogyny.

 

I still can't believe how many people started following her like white knights after watching her video about women tropes in video gaming.

[daveliam]

The Anitas and Leigh Alexanders of the world are just the modern incarnation of this.

 

<snip>

 

Why?  She isn't promoting the illegalization of video games.  I'm genuinely not seeing a relationship between the Anti-Saloon League and Anita Sarkeesian.

[Seboist]

Why?  She isn't promoting the illegalization of video games.  I'm genuinely not seeing a relationship between the Anti-Saloon League and Anita Sarkeesian.

 

Both are church ladies trying to impose their morality on others.

[LPPrince]

Why?  She isn't promoting the illegalization of video games.  I'm genuinely not seeing a relationship between the Anti-Saloon League and Anita Sarkeesian.

 

Edit-nevermind, there you go

[slimgrin]

There is no misogyny in BioWare's games.

 

No, there isn't. I can criticize their characterization of women in other ways, but it should be clear to all they're on the pro-feminist side in this. And I find it interesting this particular Anita thread hasn't been locked.

[daveliam]

Both are church ladies trying to impose their morality on others.

 

Meh.  I disagree.  Anita's not a church lady in the literal sense and I'm hard pressed to see her that way in the figurative sense.  There's no religious morality in her message.

 

I guess the connection is that they are all women who have a viewpoint that is unpopular with the consumers of a particular product.  I think she's more in line with Suffragettes in the sense that she's fighting for what she believes to be an injustice against women, but even that's not right because it's not like she's fighting for equal rights.  It's more like a combination of the two. I suppose.

 

But I think it's a case of me just not finding her nearly as offensive as others.  I don't think either of us will change the other's opinion.  Thanks for the quick and honest response though.

[LPPrince]

No, there isn't. I can criticize their characterization of women in other ways, but it should be clear to all they're on the pro-feminist side in this. And I find it interesting this particular Anita thread hasn't been locked.

 

This one is fine. Everyone's keeping things calm, cool, collected, and controlled. No one's getting bashed for their opinions and we're all on the same side here.

[Obadiah]

...
You do realize that there ARE women out there who do dress like that deliberately and like it?

Sure. I just hadn't noticed how common a preference it was.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sure. I just hadn't noticed how common a preference it was.

 

It doesn't have to be common to be portrayed.

[The Hierophant]

No, there isn't. I can criticize their characterization of women in other ways, but it should be clear to all they're on the pro-feminist side in this. And I find it interesting this particular Anita thread hasn't been locked.

Probably because it's pro Bio. Or it could just be for the comedy.

*Fixed*

[LPPrince]

Another problem I have with Sarkeesian's schtick and folk- she/they will find a problem in anything, just with circumstantials.

 

Ex-

 

Someone tells her that a 22-near-23 year old male who posts on the internet regularly(me) is playing Sunset Overdrive, and is playing as a female main character.

 

What is she likely to do, going by what I've seen in her videos? Make an assumption that I'm playing a female character to sexualize her, put her in skimpy clothes, use the bustier female body type option, and use her for sexual gratification because I'm a straight guy and of course I'd do that, supposedly we all do that.

 

When in fact- I'm playing a female character because its cool to play as the opposite gender in games sometimes. My character is dressed to look ridiculous yet at the same time badass. She's got two shades of blue for her emo-style hair, a superhero shirt that goes from blue down to red, red motocross pants, a single glove, and black/blue sneakers. She's got the thinner body type of the two for female characters. And she's a goddamn hilarious badass mutant killer with a wise-ass attitude.

 

Spoiler

But who cares about that when you can skew perception and leave details out to get your point across, right?

[HoldTheLine]

Anita brings up some valid points and then she jumps right off of those points and into crazy land by seeing misogyny in games where there isn't any. I watched a lot of her videos and sometimes I found myself nodding and agreeing and other times I was scratching my head at some of her examples like, "How on earth was that misogynistic?" Basically, I've just stopped listening to her.

[Isichar]

Damn female hating pigs. Repent!

[Willsi]

I've read through this thread and I'm not gonna pretend to fully understand who Anita is and everything she's done and said. All I know is that Bioware and their games are probably one of the best for equality not just for the sexes but for sexuality too. I find it very hard to believe that Dragon Age Origins was misogynistic in anyway, at least I've never got that impression from it. If Anita has looked at the game and saw misogyny then I think it's because she sees what she wants to see not what's there.

 

Thank you Bioware for being an awesome company.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Well, there is one place still completely unaffected by SWJ's and radical feminists..... GLORIOUS NIPPON!

 

[Obadiah]

It doesn't have to be common to be portrayed.

There's always a justifaction you can manufacture to depict people a certain way. That doesn't mean as a creator that you aren't playing into a negative stereotype.