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BioWare and Misogyny


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#151
addiction21

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I'm half tempted to start calling her Based Mom because MY GOD

 

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/302433

 

Its the video from KoP's stream with her. She gets in at around the 25 minute mark before that is the usual ramblings. She is pretty insightful. STill hard to believe people take Matt Lees seriously when he was calling her scum a day after she lost her husband.

 

 

As to the topic no BioWare does not do muh soggey knees. Misogyny is a serious claim and in the past few years its gotten thrown around so much its lost all its gravity and meaning.

 

As far as the clip is concerned its one more example taken out of context to blurt out sexism with no actual inspection of it all.

 

I'd say more but the kiddies are starting to show up and I need to hand out candy (Halloween if anyone reads this post after today).



#152
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Sarkeesian is a joke. Just another Bill O'Riley type propagandist.


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#153
FlyingSquirrel

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This seems to be the conclusion she often comes to, yet is never able to adequately show a correlation between what happens in video games and what happens in real life; specifically how mens' treatment of women is altered by depictions of women in media. She uses weasle words like "studies show", but never cites anything directly in her videos. Instead, she gives you a list of resources - most of which are articles and discussions from other feminists or links to her other videos. Seriously, she cites herself.

 

I don't honestly know what she does or doesn't cite, or what the scientific literature says. But it doesn't seem like a big stretch to imagine that common stereotypes and cliches in popular media (not just video games) can influence or reinforce attitudes, even if those attitudes don't always translate directly into harmful action. A single scene in a single game probably doesn't have that much impact on most people's thinking, but it might be part of a pattern, and as gamers, it's worth our time to be aware of these things when we see them so as to minimize any subconscious influence they might have on us. I'm not saying don't play the games at all or that any game company that traffics in these stereotypes and cliches is being deliberately sexist, just that we can recognize these things, and so can developers.

 

 

As for women being helpless...

 

In video games you don't just help women. Almost any game you play, whether the main character is male or not, there's a lot of saving the day involved. That's kind of the whole point of playing a hero. I would also say it's not that uncommon to come across a female character who has lost their family due to some kind of violence, though they're usually not the main character in a game.

 

Sure. But I think it's also probably true that game protagonists are disproportionately male and that the cliche of the damsel-in-distress may pop up a little more than its counterparts (i.e. females saving males, or males saving other males).

 

I'm not saying this to pick on Bioware at all, just as a reference point that most people here will understand - let's consider Mass Effect. A total of seven different squadmates are available at various points in the game. Consider how Shepard meets each of them, males first, then females:

  • Kaidan - simply assigned to the squad as part of the Normandy crew
  • Jenkins - ditto, though he dies right away (and can't be "saved" by a male or female Shepard)
  • Garrus - C-Sec officer confronting criminals and trying to rescue a female hostage (Dr. Michel)
  • Wrex - either blowing off the C-Sec guys, threatening Fist, or simply popping up and asking to join
  • Liara - trapped in a chamber on Therum
  • Tali - ambushed by Saren's mercs, later says Shepard "saved her life"
  • Ashley - on the run from the geth and clearly seemed to think she might not have held out on her own

Let me clarify that there are two things I am definitely NOT saying here. I am NOT saying (1) that the Bioware writers responsible for these scenes are sexists or misogynists, or (2) that this makes the male characters more likeable or admirable (Wrex is easily the most morally ambiguous of the group and the one I'd least want anywhere near me if they were real people as opposed to characters in a game, and being the victim of violence should never be seen as diminishing anyone's value as a living being). But there is a bit of an imbalance there in terms of the females being portrayed as more in need of assistance from Shepard (who, if stats are to be believed, is most frequently played as a male character) compared to the males.

 

Perhaps more to the point, I hadn't explicitly thought of it in these terms until just now when I sat down to reply to this thread. I suppose you could argue that that's because it's simply an irrelevant accident of the story and I should just pat myself on the back for being immune to sexist interpretations, but I'm not sure I want to give myself quite that much credit. I don't think anyone reasonable is going to argue that this means we should all boycott Bioware and burn our copies of Mass Effect in effigy, just that we can recognize that there may be some subtle stereotypes being invoked and that we can do more to avoid and counteract them in the future. (And I tend to agree that Bioware is generally pretty good in terms of depicting gender in an even-handed manner.)


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#154
Isichar

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^ seems a hell of a lot more reasonable then what I hear from Anita.

Also those Miranda butt scenes... Questionable
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#155
LPPrince

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Nah, those Miranda ass shots were totally overkill. Those happened way too often. After a while I was like, "WE KNOW, WE GET IT"


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#156
Drone223

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Oh you're an idealist.

Nope I'm a realist you must have gotten the wrong impression.

#157
Isichar

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Nah, those Miranda ass shots were totally overkill. Those happened way too often. After a while I was like, "WE KNOW, WE GET IT"


Pretty much.

#158
Obadiah

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Main reason I bought the armor DLC for her.

#159
LPPrince

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Main reason I bought the armor DLC for her.

 

I didn't have a problem with the darker options, but yeah. Back when I played ME3 the first time, I was like, "Please tell me they'll avoid shoving her ass in our faces again" and SURPRISE, there it was again with another close-up

 

I had to laugh at how ridiculous it was.


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#160
Lady Nuggins

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Calling out one scene in one game as problematic is a pretty far cry from calling the entire company misogynistic, which she did not do.  


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#161
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Nah, those Miranda ass shots were totally overkill. Those happened way too often. After a while I was like, "WE KNOW, WE GET IT"

 

I still wouldn't call them misogynist, though. They were incredibly stupid, but not really sexist. It's like if they'd shown close-ups of bulging male crotches; not misandrist, but really dumb.



#162
LPPrince

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I still wouldn't call them misogynist, though. They were incredibly stupid, but not really sexist. It's like if they'd shown close-ups of bulging male crotches; not misandrist, but really dumb.

 

Oh, I'm calling out the ass shots specifically because they were dumb as hell. Imagine if in rest scenes during convos with Shepard it focused on his crotch/her snatch.

 

Yeah.


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#163
Lady Nuggins

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I still wouldn't call them misogynist, though. They were incredibly stupid, but not really sexist. It's like if they'd shown close-ups of bulging male crotches; not misandrist, but really dumb.

 

What was the purpose of the ass shots?  Can they be described as anything other than gratuitous titillation?  Who were they for, if not for straight male players?



#164
Isichar

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^ What about the lesbians/bisexual women?
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#165
LPPrince

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What was the purpose of the ass shots?  Can they be described as anything other than gratuitous titillation?  Who were they for, if not for straight male players?

 

Anyone who finds the posterior of a female attractive? Its not just straight males.


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#166
daveliam

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Okay, so I just got home and watched her clip on the Colbert website and not only did she not call Bioware a 'prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry', but she didn't even use their name at all.  Did I miss something or is this another example of people exaggerating her words and making stuff up?


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#167
daveliam

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It's like if they'd shown close-ups of bulging male crotches; not misandrist, but really dumb.

 

But did they?  Because they didn't and that was kind of the point.  If they had shown multiple Jacob ass shots, then I agree with you.  But, unless I'm forgetting it, I don't think they showed any close up ass-framed shots of the guys.  That might be where the difference lies.  

 

Again, not saying it's misogynistic on its own but your argument isn't really valid.



#168
Obadiah

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Anyone who finds the posterior of a female attractive? Its not just straight males.

Right, for those people, who were also alone and did not have, say, a curious younger brother or sister or their child hovering nearby, or parents visiting, or spouse/partner nearby who was not so into video games. Because then it was just kinda embarassing.

#169
mybudgee

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I didn't have a problem with the darker options, but yeah. Back when I played ME3 the first time, I was like, "Please tell me they'll avoid shoving her ass in our faces again" and SURPRISE, there it was again with another close-up

 

I had to laugh at how ridiculous it was.

It was to show how she had been toning & tightening:

Before

Miranda_butt.jpg

After

maxresdefault.jpg



#170
LPPrince

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Right, for those people, who were also alone and did not have, say, a curious younger brother or sister hovering nearby, or parents visiting, or spouse/partner nearby who was not so into video games. Because then it was just kinda embarassing.

 

I imagine. Good thing I enjoy my RPG's solo without anyone around. I like to immerse myself in my game worlds, so that would throw me off.


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#171
Lady Nuggins

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Anyone who finds the posterior of a female attractive? Its not just straight males.

 

Interesting how they specifically chose to do that with a female character who is only available for a romance with a male Shepard, though.

 

Okay, so I just got home and watched her clip on the Colbert website and not only did she not call Bioware a 'prominent example of misogyny in the gaming industry', but she didn't even use their name at all.  Did I miss something or is this another example of people exaggerating her words and making stuff up?

 

Nope, people were equally outraged that the same scene was used as an example in her recent video, but as I recall she didn't mention the game or Bioware itself in that, either.  


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#172
LPPrince

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Interesting how they specifically chose to do that with a female character who is only available for a romance with a male Shepard, though.

 

Is it interesting? ME3 had a lesbian romance option get moist.



#173
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It is obviously objectifying yes, even if a small portion of the people it is directed toward happen to be lesbian/bi women. Let's not kid ourselves here or gloss over it like it's just harmless stupid.
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#174
Inquisitor Recon

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Those Miranda ass shots are really not bad. I've seen better, but not bad.

#175
Isichar

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Interesting how they specifically chose to do that with a female character who is only available for a romance with a male Shepard, though.
 

 
Nope, people were equally outraged that the same scene was used as an example in her recent video, but as I recall she didn't mention the game or Bioware itself in that, either.


You don't need to be a male Shepard to see the butt.

In fact I don't see how her being a romance option for males only has anything to do with who enjoys her butt fan service or not.
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