71 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

I am in Orzammar now and it seems like I'm forced to choose between the contender's without knowing much about them.  Most of the quests seem to lead to the Deep Roads and I can't get permission to enter--I can't even track down the stolen tome because it seems like it's behind the locked door at the Proving Grounds.  I guess I can't go there either until I commit one way or the other?

I'm leaning toward Lord Harrowmont mostly because the egalitarian lord at the Tapsters likes him better, but I'd really like to get a few other opinions  On the other hand, the initial quest for Bhelen is a lot less risky..  Is there anyone else I can talk to who will tell me more about these guys?

[Godak]

Harrowmont is the "bad" choice, Bhelen is the "good" choice. It depends on the character your playing as.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harrowmont is anything but egalitarian. He supports the caste system, doesn't like stragners and doesn't want to change. Bhelen on the otherhand want to give the castless more rights and start to change Orzammar's stagnat system. Plus, he is just better at politics.

The difference between the two is subtle at first. We don't get to know about them until after we pick one. But the difference becomes clear at the epilogue. Bhelen is the better choice.

[KariTR]

Info is really scant. A few of the residents do make comments, but they're mostly non-commital ones so it can be quite frustrating. Basically there is no wrong or right option and though what you hear goes slightly in favour of Harrwomont, unless youre a dwarf your biggest influence is probably the cutscene you witnessed on arriving in Orzammar.

EDIT: Seen a couple of replies. To reiterate there is no wrong/right or bad/good decision. Make your own mind up and if you can't, toss a coin.

Modifié par KariTR, 24 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[Demx]

Many depict Harrowmont as the "good guy" out of the two; considering the what Bhelen did to his family and what he does to Harrowmont after being crowned king.



http://dragonage.wik...yral_Harrowmont

http://dragonage.wik..._Bhelen_Aeducan

[knownastherat]

Yes, speak to Bhelen representative in the Chamber Assembly building, ask for help against Blight, accept his tasks (why not..), this will trigger Harrowmont representative to talk to you outside and accept his task too (why not ..). At this point you can learn more in The Shaperate on the left, and from various bits from people around Orzammar you overhear or talk to like Narvia? for example. If you will want to remain neutral, you will have to play a double-agent which can be tricky, but doable at least until you will return from Deep Roads when you will face, pretty much, non-consequential choice.

[maxernst]

Ah, you can accept both tasks. I wasn't sure about that, so I talked to both reps, but didn't commit myself.

[HarlequinDream]

maxernst wrote...

Ah, you can accept both tasks. I wasn't sure about that, so I talked to both reps, but didn't commit myself.

Though I have heard that if you COMPLETE both tasks, you will have successfully made both sides hate you and neither side will accept your help further, thus deadlocking you completely.

[melkathi]

If you play the dwarven backgrounds, especially the dwarf noble one, then you will know a lot more.



For a complete stranger to Orzammar, there isn't much to base your choices on.

As for who is the good and who is the bad choice... I'd say make up your own mind. The forum has some scary people frequenting it with political views ranging from the extreme far right to leftist.

Bhelen is undoubtetly the more powerful of the two, but his rethoric is worrying (and so are his actions) - he is too reminiscent of the rise of the various fascist leaders in the first half of the 20th century.

Harrowmont is a weak choice, that will not benefit Orzamar.

Bhelen is a strong choice, but a worrying one.

And when one starts judging people with weak/strong criteria, then it's time to worry anyway.

[earl of the north]

Bhelen is a complete and utter ******* who will and has killed anyone who gets in his way to power.....he's also the choice if you want the dwarfs to push back the darkspawn for the first time in centuries and being breaking down the caste system which is crippling dwarf society.

Harrowmont is a nice guy, who is too weak to control the dwarf noble houses, will at best hold on to the territory the dwarfs still hold and oh he's in favour of the caste system, so you're basically helping to maintain a caste system which holds some dwarfs as sub-human (or sub-dwarfen anyway).

Sooooo.......Power hungry tryant or Elitist Noble

My Dwarf commoner backed Bhelen for family reasons, my Dwarf Noble also backed Bhelen for family reasons.......right up until the crowning where he switched sides and went with Harrowmont for revenge.

Modifié par earl of the north, 24 janvier 2010 - 07:11 .

[Gilsa]

I already did both the dwarf origins so when I get to that point again on a human or elf character, I still have a hard time deciding which way to go, even with all that metagaming knowledge I have. I thought about it and nobody from the dwarf noble origin is alive in the human playthrough, but if I spared Bhelen, somewhere is a sweet dwarf named Rica with a little boy whose life I'm making better. I'm very fond of Rica from playing the dwarf commoner origin so OK, this one is for you, Rica, even though I can't find you anywhere in Ozrammar on my human. (Seems like she only shows up in either of the dwarf stories.) Lame reason, yes, but better than flipping a coin.

[KnightofPhoenix]

melkathi wrote...

Bhelen is undoubtetly the more powerful of the two, but his rethoric is worrying (and so are his actions) - he is too reminiscent of the rise of the various fascist leaders in the first half of the 20th century.

Except that he doesn't hate strangers, or any race. Except he is willing to collaborate with surfacers. Except he doesn't want to exert totalitarian control over society.
There is nothing fascist about him. Nor extreme right.

He is similar to the Bonapartist ideal of a leader. He is a strong, authoritarian progressive leader. Not a Fscist despot.

As for the people sayiig he is a tyrant. Big deal. I would rather have a progressive tyrant as a ruler instead of a weakling.

[AntiChri5]

Anyone willing to reverse the endless cycle of Dwarven stupidity that is the caste system gets my vote!

[Skellimancer]

They are both terrible kings, just toss a coin and choose either.

[ReubenLiew]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Bhelen is undoubtetly the more powerful of the two, but his rethoric is worrying (and so are his actions) - he is too reminiscent of the rise of the various fascist leaders in the first half of the 20th century.

Except that he doesn't hate strangers, or any race. Except he is willing to collaborate with surfacers. Except he doesn't want to exert totalitarian control over society.
There is nothing fascist about him. Nor extreme right.

He is similar to the Bonapartist ideal of a leader. He is a strong, authoritarian progressive leader. Not a Fscist despot.

As for the people sayiig he is a tyrant. Big deal. I would rather have a progressive tyrant as a ruler instead of a weakling.

You say that now, but wait till our Alien Overlords come and take over, than you'll see!
I for one, support our evil Alien Overlords and welcome them!

[RangerSG]

As noted, there really isn't a right/wrong choice.



Bhelen is a "progressive tyrant." He will gain the Dwarves a respite. He will give the casteless a place. But he will destroy the assembly and thus remove the rights of the nobility or anyone else to truly protest his actions. That may be better in his lifetime for the dwarves, but when the next guy shows up? The problem with "benevolent dictatorships" is that they never stay benevolent.



Also there's the fact he murdered his family to gain the throne. Fraticide is a rather worrying trait in a leader. And of course, he butchers Harrowmont on the spot rather than accept his retirement or exile. So I think we can be sure that's how he deals with dissent his entire reign.



Harrowmont is weak and ineffectual in his lifetime...which is short. And if your PC is A DN, well you can make sure that what follows is done right as Paragon and King. I would say 'that' is the best option for the dwarves in the end.



If you're anything but DN, there's really nothing but your personal preferences to base it on.

[Kaoschizm]

I did this quest and went with Harrowmont because Bhelen seemed like the evil option, forging documents, blackmailing people, killing his own family and whatnot. Was pretty shocked to read that Bhelen was actually the "good" option.

[JrayM16]

Talk to everyone about them.

[RangerSG]

Kaoschizm wrote...


I did this quest and went with Harrowmont because Bhelen seemed like the evil option, forging documents, blackmailing people, killing his own family and whatnot. Was pretty shocked to read that Bhelen was actually the "good" option.

Again, "Good" on what basis? Good for prosperity? Maybe. Good for the military? Probably. Good if you speak your mind? Ermm...not so much.

There's no "good/evil" option there. One has no respect for anything but winning. The other is too honorable and tradition-bound to do what is necessary. Both will help you stop the Blight, which in the end is as much as a Warden can really care about in the circumstances.

[melkathi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except that he doesn't hate strangers, or any race. Except he is willing to collaborate with surfacers. Except he doesn't want to exert totalitarian control over society.
There is nothing fascist about him. Nor extreme right.

He is similar to the Bonapartist ideal of a leader. He is a strong, authoritarian progressive leader. Not a Fscist despot.

As for the people sayiig he is a tyrant. Big deal. I would rather have a progressive tyrant as a ruler instead of a weakling.

I am so not going to argue with you knight. You are the one person that worries me the most on this forum

[KnightofPhoenix]

melkathi wrote...
I am so not going to argue with you knight. You are the one person that worries me the most on this forum

Even more than Skellimancer? Wow.

No but seriously, as a Poli Sci student, I find using the word "fascist" to describe Bhelen to be innacurate. If you want to compare him to any real life ideology, I think Bonapartism is the best comparision. My intention wasn't really to argue.

[melkathi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...
I am so not going to argue with you knight. You are the one person that worries me the most on this forum

Even more than Skellimancer? Wow.

No but seriously, as a Poli Sci student, I find using the word "fascist" to describe Bhelen to be innacurate. If you want to compare him to any real life ideology, I think Bonapartism is the best comparision. My intention wasn't really to argue.

You are right. There.
It wasn't intending to liken his policies to facist idealogies. Where I see certain similarities is his use of populism to gain absolut power. Of course he opens the country rather than closing the borders, but in a society that was shut off, it is only logical to advocate open borders when opposing the stagnant system. It is only in a system that isn't so xenophobic that you would use xenophobia to score points with the people.


Skellimancer doesn't scare me for some reason... maybe I'm wierd

[KnightofPhoenix]

He is a populist yes. But that's not exclusive to fascism. Bonapartism is also populist. Heck, even De Gaulle and Gaullism are considered populism by some.

[Emperor Iaius I]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...
I am so not going to argue with you knight. You are the one person that worries me the most on this forum

Even more than Skellimancer? Wow.

No but seriously, as a Poli Sci student, I find using the word "fascist" to describe Bhelen to be innacurate. If you want to compare him to any real life ideology, I think Bonapartism is the best comparision. My intention wasn't really to argue.

Really? Bonapartism? Is there a revolution that he's moderated? Is he trying to hold the middle ground between two extreme points of view? Neither the Marxist definition of Bonapartism, nor the French definition would really fit Bhelen at all. Let's not use Bonapartism as a cipher for "progressive authoritarianism" or "enlightened despotism."

Fascist works fine. He wants to recover the old glories of Orzammar, like Branka. He seeks control of the organs of information and uses brutality in order to enforce his perspective. He combines authoritarianism and respect for monarchical tradition with a revolutionary mindset that sweeps aside the perquisites and strictures of the old ruling class.

He's a disgusting little worm. It is far better to support Harrowmont and maintain the social order.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .