268 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The correct answer is that it's never been addressed in the lore. It might be unlikely, given the codex entry on sexuality. But the fact remains that it's currently unknown.

It has been addressed in developer comments. Marriage is between a man and a woman, not because of bigotry or intolerance but because the definition of marriage in this setting is "sacred oath between man and woman that is meant to result in children conceived by them."

 

 

Marriage is only a political tool or a tool for reproduction. Love is not involved in it in the slightest. 

It would be more accurate to say that love isn't required. Everyone acknowledges that it's ideal for it to be involved. (I believe it would have been most ideal for Leandra to fall in love with who her parents ordered her to marry, but comparing him to what we know of Malcolm Hawke I can't really blame her. From all we can tell Guillaume's not a bad guy, and I also get the idea that he's far and away smarter and more responsible than anyone else in the family he wound up starting, but Malcolm was apparently awesome made flesh.)

 

We should be able to marry LIs in the games, whether opposite sex or same sex.

And as for this, the devs have decided that in order to be fair to samesex couples, they're just going to say that Thedas is too chaotic for a proper marriage ceremony. (Which strikes me as kinda a dumb handwave given how barebones my mom and dad's wedding apparently was. They signed a form in front of a judge. Still, I acknowledge their efforts to ensure that if I romance Josephine with a femInquisitor, it'll be no less valid than her romance with my male Inquisitor.)

[HK-90210]

Homosexuality is not immoral in the Dragon Age universe. The being said, homosexual marriage is still going to be considered weird, and not something that society will actively support(though I don't know if they'll go out of the way to prevent it). The way I see it is this:

 

Marriage in Dragon Age is economical and political. Political so you can make sure that noble titles pass from a title holder to legitimate heirs and economic so they can provide societal pressure for married couples to stay together and raise children, creating more stable household for the young of society. Notice how both of these are based around children, which s/s couples do not have.

 

S/s couplings, on the other hand, are almost always based on emotion. Some manipulative people will use homosexual relationships to their advantage politically, but even then it is a manipulation of the other person's emotions, so it's still based on emotion. Heterosexual couples are a better choice on an economic basis, as they can and often do result in children. In a medieval world, children are an economic boon. So a person who is equally attracted to both sexes will be making a better bet, economically, by choosing an opposite-sex partner.

 

Put all this together, the main reason homosexual couples occur in Dragon Age are emotional reasons, love and lust and the like. And emotion-based marriage does not exist in Dragon Age. Having positive emotions can certainly make a marriage easier, but it is not the basis for marriage in Dragon Age.

 

For this reason, I don't think s/s marriage is even a thought amongst the populace of Thedas. To even suggest it, just like atheism, will simply confuse your average Thedosian.

Dialogue for such a conversation:

Spoiler

"I'm going to marry him."

"But you're a man."

"I know. A man can marry a man."

"But why?"

"Because I love him."

"But....you don't marry for love. Marriage is for children. You won't have any."

"I know."

"So why? The very reason for marriage is moot for you two. Marriage is pointless."

"No it isn't."

"Umm.....ok....." *walks off, squinting in confusion* what a strange man....."

 

Between a homosexual couple, I imagine it would go something like this:

Spoiler

"Want to get married?"

"Why?"

"To celebrate our relationship with our friends?"

"They already know. They're happy for us. What's the point of being married? Children? You and I both know how pointless that is."

"Good point. Still...."

"It would make more sense for us to just invite them over for a party for our third year of being together. Wanna just do that?"

"Yeah....that sounds good."

 

Let me be clear, I AM NOT saying this is morally right, or that I agree with it. Just that this is going to be the perspective of a medieval person, taking away any teaching by the church and society that homosexuality is bad which doesn't happen in Dragon Age.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And as for this, the devs have decided that in order to be fair to samesex couples, they're just going to say that Thedas is too chaotic for a proper marriage ceremony. (Which strikes me as kinda a dumb handwave given how barebones my mom and dad's wedding apparently was. They signed a form in front of a judge. Still, I acknowledge their efforts to ensure that if I romance Josephine with a femInquisitor, it'll be no less valid than her romance with my male Inquisitor.)

So in order for them to be fair to same sex couples, they are unfair to those who believe in getting married, especially before becoming lovers. Great. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So in order for them to be fair to same sex couples, they are unfair to those who believe in getting married, especially before becoming lovers. Great. 

Pretty much.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Pretty much.

So much for fairness then. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So much for fairness then. 

This isn't a setting where you should expect too much fairness.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This isn't a setting where you should expect too much fairness.

I'm referring more to Bioware treating fans fairly. 

[daveliam]

I'm referring more to Bioware treating fans fairly. 

 

I'm failing to understand how the lack of marriage for everyone in DA: I is Bioware treating fans 'unfairly'. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm failing to understand how the lack of marriage for everyone in DA: I is Bioware treating fans 'unfairly'. 

They are treating people who follow one lifestyle in a way that favors them much more than people who follow another lifestyle. That is a textbook example of something being unfair. 

[daveliam]

They are treating people who follow one lifestyle in a way that favors them much more than people who follow another lifestyle. That is a textbook example of something being unfair. 

 

I genuinely do not understand what you mean.  They don't have marriage as an option for the game.  The other poster's reasoning that it's because is unfair to homosexual players is hearsay unless there is a quote from a dev that says that this is the reason why.  My understanding is that they don't have marriage in the game (for anyone) because that's not the story that they wanted to tell here.  Just like in almost every other Bioware game.  The only one that has marriage at all is Alistair with a female human noble (only) and SWTOR.  Other than those, is marriage at all part of the story?  So that's why I'm not seeing this as an example of treating players unfairly.  It seems like it's par for the course with romances.  I can understand wanting them to implement it.  But I don't see how it's fair to accuse them of treating players unfairly.  Unless I've misunderstood what you wrote, which is totally possible.  Like I said, I'm genuinely a little confused.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I genuinely do not understand what you mean.  They don't have marriage as an option for the game.  The other poster's reasoning that it's because is unfair to homosexual players is hearsay unless there is a quote from a dev that says that this is the reason why.  My understanding is that they don't have marriage in the game (for anyone) because that's not the story that they wanted to tell here.  Just like in almost every other Bioware game.  The only one that has marriage at all is Alistair with a female human noble (only) and SWTOR.  Other than those, is marriage at all part of the story?  So that's why I'm not seeing this as an example of treating players unfairly.  It seems like it's par for the course with romances.  I can understand wanting them to implement it.  But I don't see how it's fair to accuse them of treating players unfairly.  Unless I've misunderstood what you wrote, which is totally possible.  Like I said, I'm genuinely a little confused.

What I'm saying is that in order to address one unfair treatment in their games, as in the fact that Thedas doesn't really support samesex marriages, they try to be fair to samesex players by making no love interests in Inquisition marriageable, but by doing so it is unfair to players who do not support the pre-marital sex or no marriage lifestyle. I know the former is a trair while the latter is a lifestyle choice, but both are lifestyles. Thus it is unfair when one lifestyle is shown preferential treatment over another lifestyle.

 

As you said, Inquisition isn't the only Bioware game to do this. This has been a problem for a long time. In all of the Bioware games that I have played, the option has only come up three times: in Origins with Alistair(though it happens in the epilogue), and Sebastian(only if on the Friendship Path). Compared to the romances that support the other lifestyle, this comes up to 7% of all love interests in the single player Bioware games(aka not counting SWTOR) that support it, and since both are male heterosexuals only heterosexual and bisexual women get even this. Homosexual women and all men who support that lifestyle have 0% of LIs do so. As I said earlier, a textbbok example of unfair.  

[daveliam]

What I'm saying is that in order to address one unfair treatment in their games, as in the fact that Thedas doesn't really support samesex marriages, they try to be fair to samesex players by making no love interests in Inquisition marriageable, but by doing so it is unfair to players who do not support the pre-marital sex or no marriage lifestyle. I know the former is a trair while the latter is a lifestyle choice, but both are lifestyles. Thus it is unfair when one lifestyle is shown preferential treatment over another lifestyle.

 

As you said, Inquisition isn't the only Bioware game to do this. This has been a problem for a long time. In all of the Bioware games that I have played, the option has only come up three times: in Origins with Alistair(though it happens in the epilogue), and Sebastian(only if on the Friendship Path). Compared to the romances that support the other lifestyle, this comes up to 7% of all love interests in the single player Bioware games(aka not counting SWTOR) that support it, and since both are male heterosexuals only heterosexual and bisexual women get even this. Homosexual women and all men who support that lifestyle have 0% of LIs do so. As I said earlier, a textbbok example of unfair.  

 

Okay, so I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think I fundamentally disagree with you because your argument is based on the assumption that the reason why they aren't offering marriages is to be 'fair' to same sex couples.  I have literally never heard this until that other poster brought it up as a possible reason (aka speculation). 

 

Do I think that they should offer marriage in the future?  Sure.  Why not.  Do I want you to see representation in games?  Absolutely.  But I don't think that the lack of marriage in this game is an example of Bioware treating fans unfairly.  It's the 'unfairly' part that I don't agree with.  I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one because I'm just not seeing it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Okay, so I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think I fundamentally disagree with you because your argument is based on the assumption that the reason why they aren't offering marriages is to be 'fair' to same sex couples.  I have literally never heard this until that other poster brought it up as a possible reason (aka speculation). 

 

Do I think that they should offer marriage in the future?  Sure.  Why not.  Do I want you to see representation in games?  Absolutely.  But I don't think that the lack of marriage in this game is an example of Bioware treating fans unfairly.  It's the 'unfairly' part that I don't agree with.  I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one because I'm just not seeing it.

I was just addressing that post by using the hypothetical that it is the reason they did it. You were confused about my reply to that post, so I clarified it while keeping the relevant part in the hypothetical. I'm not saying that is why Bioware actually did it. 

 

That said, regardless of their reasons I find the result of their decisions unfair. It is supporting one lifestyle drastically more than another lifestyle, so by dictionary definition it fits the term.

[Br3admax]

Leandra/Malcolm and Aveline/Donnic disagree.

You mean the pairings that go against the norm and actually upset the balance? Big surprise.

[Raylis]

What I'm saying is that in order to address one unfair treatment in their games, as in the fact that Thedas doesn't really support samesex marriages, they try to be fair to samesex players by making no love interests in Inquisition marriageable, but by doing so it is unfair to players who do not support the pre-marital sex or no marriage lifestyle. I know the former is a trair while the latter is a lifestyle choice, but both are lifestyles. Thus it is unfair when one lifestyle is shown preferential treatment over another lifestyle.

 

As you said, Inquisition isn't the only Bioware game to do this. This has been a problem for a long time. In all of the Bioware games that I have played, the option has only come up three times: in Origins with Alistair(though it happens in the epilogue), and Sebastian(only if on the Friendship Path). Compared to the romances that support the other lifestyle, this comes up to 7% of all love interests in the single player Bioware games(aka not counting SWTOR) that support it, and since both are male heterosexuals only heterosexual and bisexual women get even this. Homosexual women and all men who support that lifestyle have 0% of LIs do so. As I said earlier, a textbbok example of unfair.  

Well, so far that means there has been at least one character per dragon age game?  Not that that is helpful to your request, but it means it is possible a similar situation may happen in DAI? I assumed marriage wasn't brought up because those characters do live in those lifestyles, and wouldn't have thought to bring it up themselves. However an option to bring it up would be interesting, as well as their reaction. I can imagine Josie going "Oh...this means I have to tell mom and dad...eek!" lol. Of all the love interests I'd imagine her to be most likely looking for marriage. However, we also have characters who may be against marriage. I might be remembering wrong, but wasn't one of the reasons Dorian was ostrisiced from Tevinter society because he wasn't interested in getting married? He didn't want to play their political game? (minor reason, but I coulda sworn I saw that somewhere...)

 

I remember playing DA2 for the first time, and hitting that scene with fenris and going but I'm not like that?! But then it wouldn't fit into his character to become tied to a person, so I understood. Merrill already felt like she was betraying her people being with a human, so I can't imagine her wanting to get married as well either. Anders though...that relationship definitely seemed like it could have gone the marriage route, so you're right it would have been nice to have the option. But the I love yous and the "I want you here until the day I die" felt like an unofficial marriage to me. But I get the feeling love based relationships in thedas don't really go that route (official rather than unofficial) unless for political gain or that a baby is on the way. Perhaps the term "lover" caries more weight in that world than it does in this one? I felt like Masked Empire addressed the issue well, with the term Consort (I think that was the word?) having more political power than a spouse due to degree of influence.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

The intersection of marriage and romance is a relatively modern notion, so that doesn't really bother me, especially since same sex couples wouldn't face the issues they do today like visitation and funeral rights because marriage would be a religious and social arrangement rather than a legal one like it is today. Unlike contemporary times, marriage was primarily a business contract between families in order to gain power and produce heirs. Unfortunately, with the exception of Alistair/Anora/Warden, the other major mentions of marriage from Leandra and Aveline are completely modern and that is anachronistic and a slip on Bioware's part.

[Xilizhra]

I don't see what benefits marriage would have in Thedas that would be required for love if you're not having children.

[daveliam]

I don't see what benefits marriage would have in Thedas that would be required for love if you're not having children.

 

Probably symbolic.  I could see a devout Andrastian same sex couple wanting to have the same ceremony in the eyes of their deity.  Otherwise, yeah, not much of a benefit, I imagine.

[LOLandStuff]

Double XP.

[Xilizhra]

Probably symbolic.  I could see a devout Andrastian same sex couple wanting to have the same ceremony in the eyes of their deity.  Otherwise, yeah, not much of a benefit, I imagine.

I thought the idea was that the Maker didn't acknowledge that kind of thing.

[frylock23]

Yeah, but where exactly is the teaching in the setting that people shouldn't have sex before marriage? I seem to have missed that. If that implication isn't in the setting, then they are being fair to the characters.

[Hellion Rex]

I thought the idea was that the Maker didn't acknowledge that kind of thing.

Doesn't acknowledge marriage or s/s couples?

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah, but where exactly is the teaching in the setting that people shouldn't have sex before marriage? I seem to have missed that. If that implication isn't in the setting, then they are being fair to the characters.

There is definitely no such teaching from the Chantry. Now, a lord marrying a young bride might want her to be a virgin, but I don't believe that has anything to do with religion.

[frylock23]

That's what I thought. So the poster up thread who was upset about wanting to wait to have sex until married wouldn't be facing that issue in Thedas as there is no such problem with sex before marriage.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't acknowledge marriage or s/s couples?

The latter.