268 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

True... but there'll be a fourth installation, we're sure :-)

Or an expansion. Or both.

[Br3admax]

I think Kallen meant strictly homosexual romance options. Those are new, and I think were added due to fan pressure since I got the impression the original plan was all bi LIs again.

It wasn't. Some of these characters were planned with set sexualties, all because BioWare wanted to write them that way. More people asked for bisexual LIs than the people who asked for set orientations. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Really? Because homosexuality was in Dragon Age before Inquisition was a concept. 

There were no homosexual love interests before Inquisition. There were bisexual love interests yes, but not homosexual. 

 

 

This is a fair argument, but I think it might be too late for them to make those scenes this close to launch.

 

 

 

I think Kallen meant strictly homosexual romance options. Those are new, and I think were added due to fan pressure since I got the impression the original plan was all bi LIs again.

Oh, I'm not expecting it in Inquisition, unless it is part of a huge expansion pack. Or at least hopefully in future games. 

 

And yeah, that is what I mean. 

[Borosini]

Slight tangent: I always find it weird that whenever requests and/or feedback such as this are made, people often take issue with the fact that people would dare to give feedback in the first place?

 

Rather than just saying "hey, I actually think that would be a bad idea because of x" or "i would prefer that didn't happen myself" sometimes people are like "you're a fool for asking that." (not direct quotes, obviously)

 

Why insult people for making respectful requests? To me it reads a little like "shut up, we don't want the devs to know you exist!"

[CuriousArtemis]

The link itself seems to be down, but here are some quotes from an interview David Gaider did:
 

It may not be directly in the games, but it IS lore from the word of Gaider.

 

That's really sad and ... small-minded? It's a fantasy setting. The only thing restricting the rules you create for your setting is your imagination.

[Br3admax]

There were no homosexual love interests before Inquisition. There were bisexual love interests yes, but not homosexual. 

That's not what you said, and it likely has next to nothing to do with fans asking for them.

 

Slight tangent: I always find it weird that whenever requests and/or feedback such as this are made, people often take issue with the fact that people would dare to give feedback in the first place?

 

Rather than just saying "hey, I actually think that would be a bad idea because of x" or "i would prefer that didn't happen myself" sometimes people are like "you're a fool for asking that." (not direct quotes, obviously)

 

Why insult people for making respectful requests? To me it reads a little like "shut up, we don't want the devs to know you exist!"

Because here fans are demanding that a writer completely rewrite the political aspects and lore of their games to cater to their self-interest. Suggesting it isn't the problem. 

[Borosini]

That's not what you said, and it likely has next to nothing to do with fans asking for them.

 

Because here fans are demanding that a writer completely rewrite the political aspects and lore of their games to cater to their self-interest. Suggesting it isn't the problem. 

 

I...

 

Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen any demands whatsoever.

 

Besides, what bargaining chip is someone going to bring to the table? "Preorder canceled"? Great, Bioware lost, I don't know, $20 USD?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's not what you said, and it likely has next to nothing to do with fans asking for them.

I mistyped. I meant there wouldn't be homosexual romance options. 

And I would bet you money that fan demand was an influential part in their decision. After all, they are a business. If there is enough of a demand, like any business they will supply that demand because it garners a profit. 

[In Exile]

The link itself seems to be down, but here are some quotes from an interview David Gaider did:
 

It may not be directly in the games, but it IS lore from the word of Gaider.

 

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything. 

[CuriousArtemis]

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything. 

 

Yeah, seriously. One of the most important things to do when creating a fantasy setting is to think carefully about your big institutions; for example, marriage. Don't just copy the way things are in our world.

 

And if you do, at least research how and why they evolved the way they did.

[daveliam]

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything. 

Yeah, seriously. One of the most important things to do when creating a fantasy setting is to think carefully about your big institutions; for example, marriage. Don't just copy the way things are in our world.

 

And if you do, at least research how and why they evolved the way they did.

 

 

I'm out of likes, but I owe both of you one like (plus interest) for these comments!

[mikeymoonshine]

That's really sad and ... small-minded? It's a fantasy setting. The only thing restricting the rules you create for your setting is your imagination.

 

So why is creating a fantasy setting from your own imagination with no gay marriage small minded? 

 

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything. 

 

There are reasons why they might restrict marriage that are not arbitrary. 

 

Some believe that marriage is about children or that "god" created marriage to be between a man and a woman. The problem with these beliefs is that they are wrong, marriage predates christianity/monotheism, people can get married who cannot have children or do not wish to and if secular marriage exists then "gods" opinions are irrelevant. 

 

That is the real world though, we cannot assume that these arguments work in Thedas. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything. 

I agree that the Chantry is being somewhat arbitrary, but you can't pretend that they're being as arbitrary as they would be if they were saying that only people with non-matching eye colors can marry. Saying that marriage is between a man and a woman is pretty logical if the premise is "we want marriage to result in children."

 

 

There are reasons why they might restrict marriage that are not arbitrary. 

 

Some believe that marriage is about children or that "god" created marriage to be between a man and a woman. The problem with these beliefs is that they are wrong, marriage predates christianity/monotheism, people can get married who cannot have children or do not wish to and if secular marriage exists then "gods" opinions are irrelevant. 

 

That is the real world though, we cannot assume that these arguments work in Thedas. 

As for which arguments work in Thedas and which don't, I can tell you that "do not wish to have children" is not considered a valid reason to not have them in Thedas, the Chantry can apparently annul marriages based on infertility, and that we have no indication that secular marriage is anything but an oxymoron in that setting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And what if Bioware chose, without any external influence, to make their game world the way it is? Would people accept it?

Given how closely the Chantry teachings align with those of the Catholic Church (though they aren't a perfect match, since we know Cailan has the legal option to set Anora aside where Henry VIII had to completely break with the Church to set aside the two wives he broke with nonviolently) I can tell you they almost certainly did not write their marriage laws out of whole cloth.

[In Exile]

There are reasons why they might restrict marriage that are not arbitrary. 

 

Some believe that marriage is about children or that "god" created marriage to be between a man and a woman. The problem with these beliefs is that they are wrong, marriage predates christianity/monotheism, people can get married who cannot have children or do not wish to and if secular marriage exists then "gods" opinions are irrelevant. 

 

These are all perfectly possible justifications, distasteful as they are IRL. But they're not part of the setting. We've seen no indication that, say, commoners marry solely for the purpose of procreation (cf. Malcom and Leandra). Or that the Maker is supposed to hate teh ghey. 

 

I agree that the Chantry is being somewhat arbitrary, but you can't pretend that they're being as arbitrary as they would be if they were saying that only people with non-matching eye colors can marry. Saying that marriage is between a man and a woman is pretty logical if the premise is "we want marriage to result in children."

 

Only to the extent that the man and woman are fertile, which even IRL wasn't really a basis for annulling your marriage. But more importantly, as I said above, that's not really something that's been made part of the lore. 

 

It's arbitrary because there's nothing in-setting to justify it. And even the idea of marriage as an apparatus for breeding doesn't work because as far as we've seen people don't view it that way.

It's not as if you need marriage to get knocked up. And the question of legitimacy is only relevant to nobles. There's no real need for marriage to have a legitimate heir - there could be other processes of selecting one. 

 

All of this is to say that "because children" is arbitrary unless there's some reason in-setting for this to be true, and we haven't seen it. 

[In Exile]

Given how closely the Chantry teachings align with those of the Catholic Church (though they aren't a perfect match, since we know Cailan has the legal option to set Anora aside where Henry VIII had to completely break with the Church to set aside the two wives he broke with nonviolently) I can tell you they almost certainly did not write their marriage laws out of whole cloth.

 

But the whole point is that those laws don't make sense when they're divorced from the very real theological context they evolved in. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But the whole point is that those laws don't make sense when they're divorced from the very real theological context they evolved in. 

I'm lost. How not?

[mikeymoonshine]

As for which arguments work in Thedas and which don't, I can tell you that "do not wish to have children" is not considered a valid reason to not have them in Thedas, the Chantry can apparently annul marriages based on infertility, and that we have no indication that secular marriage is anything but an oxymoron in that setting.

 

it would be interesting to see DA introduce the idea of SS marriage or secular marriage and therefore also SS marriage in DA:I or a future game. I remember another game doing that but I don't remeber what game it was, anyway I enjoyed that plot line. 

 

Right now the only non Andrastian culture I can think of that has marriage is the Dalish but I could see them also having the man+woman=children view considering their numbers and we know the city elves arrange marriages for community purposes between the alienages. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Besides, what bargaining chip is someone going to bring to the table? "Preorder canceled"? Great, Bioware lost, I don't know, $20 USD?

About $70, in my case. (I had a Best Buy gift card with a crap-ton of cash on it, if you're wondering why I'd do such a thing.)

 

(That said, I'm not threatening to cancel a preorder. About the only thing that could do that is if Josephine turns out to be a zombie in a latex mask.)

[Lebanese Dude]

I think Gaider is wrong in respect of his reasoning, though obvs. he's the authoritarian voice. In a society that isn't prejudiced against S/S relationships, which is most certainly anachronistic view that Bioware has taken, the idea that marriage could be somehow restricted to one gender is just bonkers. It's like someone IRL deciding that only people with non-matching eye colours could marry. It's a totally arbitrary distinction that has no grounding in anything.

I disagree. It's not an all-or-none situation.

First of all, anachronism doesn't apply here. This isn't a fantasy re-enactment of a medieval Earth setting, but rather an independent setting with medieval Earth elements. There's a heavy similarity but not a total translation.

So any writing choice does not have to make sense when taken within the context of the real world, but rather only the fantasy world that they have constructed.

In DA, the only instances of marriage we have seen have been:

1) Political: It must be a union that can potentially produce an heir of the same blood. Human and Dwarven nobility is centered around this.
2) Power: Tevinter marriages are meant to increase the power of the joined families in both matters of politics and magic.
3) Procreation: Elves are forced into arranged marriages to keep their population up.

An s/s marriage fits none of these "requirements" for marriage, which are very intertwined in some cases, then it certainly makes sense why s/s marriages are notably absent. They serve no practical purpose beyond the benefit of the two involved when most marriages are done in the name of producing heirs. This doesn't apply to the current real world of course, but it does in Thedas. 

So s/s marriage in Thedas can only be plausible within the Dwarf casteless and Human commoners. We have not seen an absence of s/s marriage in these cases nor has it been discussed so there is nothing to really complain about. It may exist for all we know.

[mikeymoonshine]

These are all perfectly possible justifications, distasteful as they are IRL. But they're not part of the setting. We've seen no indication that, say, commoners marry solely for the purpose of procreation (cf. Malcom and Leandra). Or that the Maker is supposed to hate teh ghey. 

 

It's really about how Marriage is defined and viewed in thedas vs how it is defined in the real world. People might marry for love in but it may still be viewed as a family values thing. I really don't know, it seems like it's more or less that way for most of the nobility but for commoners it's more up in the air. They seem to have the same patriarchal set up though as in man provides, woman cares for children. It's just that those roles aren't set in stone or particularly enforced so they can be ignored in many cases. 

[Gothfather]

Please don't be disrespectful by being condescending. 

 

As for Bioware not wanting to, that's why threads like this should be made. It is a way for them to see what fans want and if it happens enough they may decide they want to try it. If it wasn't for threads like these, homosexuality wouldn't be in Inquisition at all. 

[Bold, Italics underlining mine]

 

That is utter self centered BS. If you honestly think it was some bloody thread campaign that included same sex relations to DA:I then you are deluded. Because we all KNOW what a regressive company bioware is I mean thank gawd bioware finally caved to the thread pressure of same sex relationships errr... Oh wait they have been at the forefront of the AAA gaming industry with regards to same sex romances. Bioware started to view inclusiveness as important with KOTOR, sure it was a very minor insignificant step forward but it was a step forward. They have had same sex relationships in all their major titles since. (FYI Kotor 2 isn't by bioware) Granted it took ME a little longer to get M/M relationships but DA has had them since the FRAKING beginning!!!!!

 

You HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!! You self important poster. Threads like this had NOTHING to do with it. Men and women decades before the fraking world wide web was even a twinckle in someones eye, started this fight. they won it.

 

DO NOT imply that BioWare is doing this because of thread pressure. Bioware didn't get here all at once but they have moved faster than anyone else and they have moved because they felt it was important to show the diversity of the world they live in and to be inclusive. Which is why same sex relationship are interactive not passive background.

 

But no I am sure it was all down to people coming here to post a thread on same sex relations that convinced Bioware to include something they have had in this franchise since day one. [golf clap] Well done what would we have done without you?

 

I so hate when people just make crap up and lie through their teeth.

[Lebanese Dude]

*rage*

 

Calm yo ****** dear.

[Gothfather]

It's really about how Marriage is defined and viewed in thedas vs how it is defined in the real world. People might marry for love in but it may still be viewed as a family values thing. I really don't know, it seems like it's more or less that way for most of the nobility but for commoners it's more up in the air. They seem to have the same patriarchal set up though as in man provides, woman cares for children. It's just that those roles aren't set in stone or particularly enforced so they can be ignored in many cases. 

 

I'd say thedas is far more egalitarian in that Anora being queen isn't viewed as anything out of the ordinary. The highest religious position in the world can only be held by women. Paragons in dwarven society can be either sex they hold tremendous power regardless of sex. Of the four Dalish keepers and their assistance, 3 were women. I think its a huge strech to view Thedas as patriarchal.