I'd say thedas is far more egalitarian in that Anora being queen isn't viewed as anything out of the ordinary. The highest religious position in the world can only be held by women. Paragons in dwarven society can be either sex they hold tremendous power regardless of sex. Of the four Dalish keepers and their assistance, 3 were women. I think its a huge strech to view Thedas as patriarchal.
It's matriarchal if anything.
It's matriarchal if anything.
I'd argue the chantry is no question but I wouldn't say the rest of Thedas is, it seems pretty equal. It appears that in Human, Dwarven, & Elvish culture there are leaders of both sexes. Qunari are still a mystery because we really have only seen one ruler. Its hard to draw any conclusions with one data point.
All this aroud SJW and rights of LG community starts to be annoying... srlsy, and you know why ? I´ll explain. I came here to rest my mind from real world, yet I have to watch on same crap even here...
It´s about year what politics caused in my country shitstorm due to making points on political agenda with LGBTI / Traditional family communities, since then those two communities are trying to kill each other.
First of all, politics came with that great idea to put a marriage into constitution, they gave to a marriage constitutional care, but in what exactly it will help to real life marriage none of politics knew... after that Traditional family, in the other words fanatics starts with pettition for traditional family. While the other fanatics from LGBTI kept pounding for more, but not just more, but more as a more ridiculous rights...
Questions :
1. Do you agree with, that the marriage is only about bound betwen one man and one woman, and that no other bond can be called in this way ?
2. Do you agree with that the bond of same sex could not adopt children ?
3. Do you agree with that only marriage might have certain rights and duties belongs only to marriage and to no other bond of people ?
4. Do you agree with that schools could not call for participation of children in the area of sexual behavior or euthanasia ?
In the end president send this pettition to constitutional court and court decided just few day ago, and said that 1. point is abolished from referendum, which Traditional family supporters took as an attack to their rights and they started running around the media with bags filled of how un-democratic is our state... just tired from this ****, and now again, someone is enforcing it´s agenda in games ... .games ? Games are here to entertain and not to brainwash, I am simply tired from both sides.,
All this aroud SJW and rights of LG community starts to be annoying... srlsy
I have no problem with Social justice and the rights of the LGBT community. They should fight for equality but get some perspective, BioWare has created a diverse and inclusive world with diverse and inclusive characters. There is representation of equality in this franchise and frankly bioware shouldn't be putting symbolic winks and nods to the US culture wars in their games. Their stories are not political vehicles for a foriegn nation's political issues. Canadian gaming companies should tell stories that reflect the values of Canada. I think Bioware does that. They are not obligated to reflect the values or desires so some disgruntled posters.
I have no problem with Social justice and the rights of the LGBT community. They should fight for equality but get some perspective, BioWare has created a diverse and inclusive world with diverse and inclusive characters. There is representation of equality in this franchise and frankly bioware shouldn't be putting symbolic winks and nods to teh US culture wars. Their stories are not political vehicles for a foriegn nation's political issues. Canadian gaming companies should tell stories that reflect the values of Canada. I think Bioware does that. They are not obligated to reflect the values or desires so some disgruntled posters.
Meh I think this is an exaggeration of what's going on here. There's no agenda by anyone.
Some people just want s/s marriage in a game. There's no harm in asking 
I'd say thedas is far more egalitarian in that Anora being queen isn't viewed as anything out of the ordinary. The highest religious position in the world can only be held by women. Paragons in dwarven society can be either sex they hold tremendous power regardless of sex. Of the four Dalish keepers and their assistance, 3 were women. I think its a huge strech to view Thedas as patriarchal.
Oh I wasn't saying thedas was patriachal, just that it has more or less the same gender roles as a patriarchal medieval society. The difference is those roles do not seem to be enforced in anyway and deviation from them is not as frowned upon if frowned upon at all (and of course this varies depending on the nation/culture).
So men still seem to be expected to work, fight ect but nothing stops women from doing these things. So we see female soldiers and lots of women in work, I assume this means men sometimes have more of a role in caring for children too.
Patriarchy is more of a social system than a word for men being in charge btw.
So marriage in thedas could be based on a social system like this and be about "the family" not about love, but I don't really know if that is the case or not.
If people call anyone who cares about social justice/social issues a social justice warrior then it stops being an insult and just makes the person saying it look like an idiot.
I was under the impression SJW referred to the sort of person who would accuse you of being a racist for wearing a kimono on the grounds of it being "cultural appropriation" and write some ranting essay about it on tumblr.
Oh and I am not arguing with the concept of cultural appropriation, only it's mussuse by ia group of people mostly made up of idiotic teenagers.
I have no problem with Social justice and the rights of the LGBT community. They should fight for equality but get some perspective, BioWare has created a diverse and inclusive world with diverse and inclusive characters. There is representation of equality in this franchise and frankly bioware shouldn't be putting symbolic winks and nods to the US culture wars in their games. Their stories are not political vehicles for a foriegn nation's political issues. Canadian gaming companies should tell stories that reflect the values of Canada. I think Bioware does that. They are not obligated to reflect the values or desires so some disgruntled posters.
The problem with SJW is that they come to game and start criticizing it because there is something which they didn´t like, but not from the gameplay, story perspective but only because their political agenda is either missing or they found something offensive. Look at the Sarkeesian, she criticized DA:O based on one scene from the game, but overlooked tons of strong female characters in the game. If there was something like a SJW in film studions, then there would be a problem to release almost each film. Most of those so-called SJW went on trainwreck led by people like Sarkeesian, which has nothning to offer, just a nitpicking and doing wrong or weak points... In my country we have none of these issue of patriarchy or whatever.
If the SJW would like to do something at all, they would look for developer which is looking forward to do a game which is politicaly correct or they would do such a game by themselves, instead of enforcing their agenda to the others, because they can damage PR in world media.
Meh I think this is an exaggeration of what's going on here. There's no agenda by anyone.
Some people just want s/s marriage in a game. There's no harm in asking
To begin with something, I doubt that even a heterosexual Inquisitors will have this opportunity...
All this aroud SJW and rights of LG community starts to be annoying... srlsy, and you know why ? I´ll explain. I came here to rest my mind from real world, yet I have to watch on same crap even here...
It´s about year what politics caused in my country shitstorm due to making points on political agenda with LGBTI / Traditional family communities, since then those two communities are trying to kill each other.
First of all, politics came with that great idea to put a marriage into constitution, they gave to a marriage constitutional care, but in what exactly it will help to real life marriage none of politics knew... after that Traditional family, in the other words fanatics starts with pettition for traditional family. While the other fanatics from LGBTI kept pounding for more, but not just more, but more as a more ridiculous rights...
Questions :
1. Do you agree with, that the marriage is only about bound betwen one man and one woman, and that no other bond can be called in this way ?
2. Do you agree with that the bond of same sex could not adopt children ?
3. Do you agree with that only marriage might have certain rights and duties belongs only to marriage and to no other bond of people ?
4. Do you agree with that schools could not call for participation of children in the area of sexual behavior or euthanasia ?
In the end president send this pettition to constitutional court and court decided just few day ago, and said that 1. point is abolished from referendum, which Traditional family supporters took as an attack to their rights and they started running around the media with bags filled of how un-democratic is our state... just tired from this ****, and now again, someone is enforcing it´s agenda in games ... .games ? Games are here to entertain and not to brainwash, I am simply tired from both sides.,
Sorry but Bioware is not forcing their agenda on anyone. They might not reflect YOUR values or the values of YOUR country but the values depicted in Bioware's games reflect the values of the nation the game was made in, Canada. There is NO agenda because none of this is a political issue in Canada. Same sex relationship are protected under the law they have equal rights. There is NO agenda to be pushed because its already part of canadian culture.
Sorry but Bioware is not forcing their agenda on anyone. They might not reflect YOUR values or the values of YOUR country but the values depicted in Bioware's games reflect the values of the nation the game was made in, Canada. There is NO agenda because none of this is a political issue in Canada. Same sex relationship are protected under the law they have equal rights. There is NO agenda to be pushed because its already part of canadian culture.
It´s not about BioWare, it´s about SJW and policies which are for few last years digging deeper and deeper into the game industry. I don´t mind, either side´s opinions and rights, but in the end I do mind both sides for trying to discriminate each other.
Everyone has a right to express whatever opinion they have about games and nobodies opinion should be above criticism. The people trying to censor or shut down other peoples opinions are the problem, whether that is by attacking the person expressing the opinion or by claiming that critics of someones opinion are bad people because they do not agree with that opinion.
This whole social issues/women in games discussion has been completely derailed by unreasonable people on both sides of this issue, but anyway this is completely off topic. I suggest we change the subject before this thread gets locked.
No they cannot.
Not because Thedas hates homosexuals but because the religions in Thedas hold a monopoly when it comes to marriage certification and marriage validation and the religion in Thedas only do heterosexual marriage.
Personally, I do not get what is the big deal about marriage. It is the legitimization of a theoretically lifelong contract between two people by some form of organization such as the clergy and/or the state. Just remove the organization part and sign that lifelong contract and you will still have marriage.
You can have one by signing a contract with your spouse while being witnessed by a group of people and then celebrate it.
I am sure that Thedas is modern enough to conduct trade deals and diplomatic negotiations so something like this is quite achievable and it does not involve religions and governments.
Additionally, one must remember that Thedas is a survivalist environment of sorts. That is to say, most of Thedas have not sufficiently achieved a certain level of civilization, be it via mechanization or by arcane means, for people to not worry about childbirth and the need to breed and Thedas itself is not a very safe place, unlike Earth.
We do not have demons, magic, dragons and darkspawn but we do have modern medicine and modern child bearing technology. Also, Earth is not home to races with very recessive gene traits or low reproductive rate by default that are in danger of dying out such as Elves and Dwarves.
I am of the opinion that homosexuality, specifically, the opinions of Theodosians on it, will become less strict if reproduction and population sustenance is not an issue. As it stands, only the Qunari probably have both the technology for advanced medicine and the capability to control their population as they see fit. However, Qunari society is very restrictive so I do not see them being pro-sexuality of any kind.
Oh I wasn't saying thedas was patriachal, just that it has more or less the same gender roles as a patriarchal medieval society. The difference is those roles do not seem to be enforced in anyway and deviation from them is not as frowned upon if frowned upon at all (and of course this varies depending on the nation/culture).
So men still seem to be expected to work, fight ect but nothing stops women from doing these things. So we see female soldiers and lots of women in work, I assume this means men sometimes have more of a role in caring for children too.
Patriarchy is more of a social system than a word for men being in charge btw.
So marriage in thedas could be based on a social system like this and be about "the family" not about love, but I don't really know if that is the case or not.
I disagree still with this. We see many women in the Dalish camps doing "provider" jobs. Aveline is more of a "Provider" then Dominic. All the traditional gender roles that men do are done by men but they are not exclusively male. They are done by women and these are not exceptions to the rule but rather the normal way of things, its normal for a woman to be a hunter, a soldier, a leader, a merchant.This means the "traditional" male gender roles are no longer gender roles. Sure women are expected to be bare children but thats a biological necessity and women will be expected to raise their children at least until they are weened again a biological necessity, men can't lactate.
So yes some gender roles that are traditionally female roles will remain simply because you CAN'T be egalitarian in child birth. In a modern society there are subsitutes for breast feeding but there are non in Thedas. This forces women to take on raising a child while its breast feeding simply because its the only way children survive.
I just don't think you can draw conclusion that thedas = partriarchy. I think its as egalitarian as it can be, if you swing it anymore towards women it will cross over into a martriarchy. I am trying to think of what parts of thedas society are partriarcal.
It´s not about BioWare, it´s about SJW and policies which are for few last years digging deeper and deeper into the game industry. I don´t mind, either side´s opinions and rights, but in the end I do mind both sides for trying to discriminate each other.
i can't agree with you on this subject. I think all aspects of society should be representative in games. I also beleive that the States needs to decide for itself what values it wants to hold and that means the "Social justice Warriors" SHOULD fight for the values they want their country to hold. The reason why nations make strides in Social Justice, ranging from the supremacy of parliment, to law reform, to sufferage, to racial and cultural equality, to gay marriage, all of these happen in the Britain and Canada is because of "Social justice Warriors." That isn't for me, a foreigner, to say what the US should do. All I can say is that as a Canadian, i will support bioware a Canadian studio because it represents the values of Canada, and i like to see those values in their games.
I disagree still with this. We see many women in the Dalish camps doing "provider" jobs. Aveline is more of a "Provider" then Dominic. All the traditional gender roles that men do are done by men but they are not exclusively male. They are done by women and these are not exceptions to the rule but rather the normal way of things, its normal for a woman to be a hunter, a soldier, a leader, a merchant.This means the "traditional male gender roles are no longer gender roles. Sure women are expected to be bare children but thats a biological necessity and women will be expected to raise their children at least until they are weened again a biological necessity, men can't lactate.
So yes some gender roles that are traditionally female roles will remain simply because you CAN'T be egalitarian in child birth. In a modern society there are subsitutes for breast feeding but there are non in Thedas. This forces women to take on raising a child while its breast feeding simply because its the only way children survive.
I just don't think you can draw conclusion that thedas = partriarchy. I think its as egalitarian as it can be, if you swing it anymore towards women it will cross over into a martriarchy. I am trying to think of what parts of thedas society are partriarcal.
Again, I am not arguing that thedas is patriarchal.
The dalish have more of a close nit community society where everyone does everything to a certain extent, that's more common in small tribe like societies. They are different to the Andrastian nations of Thedas as are the Quinari.
As I said patriarchal gender roles are not enforced or even expected. I still think they are the norm though and yes as you pointed out part of that is probably because women bare children (which is why patriarchy exists in the first place btw).
Aveline's story about the original Aveline shows that women were not allowed to be knights in Orlais at one point. Some characters do react in surprise to the warden being female because female warriors are a minority.
Chantry marriage is pretty much defined by the nobility, and a Homosexual marriage in nobility makes no sense since it produces no heirs, which creates all sorts of problems, Look at Celene, her refusal to marry contributed massive instability in Orlais because the nobles knew that if she didn't produce an heir soon it would mean that who got the throne when she died would be uncertain, which would lead to a very nasty Sucession Crisis.Now for the common folk there would be no real issue save for prehaps ensuing that property or whatever stays in the family. But the chantry's not going to make an exception in that case because it could led to all sorts of problems.
I'm pretty sure marriage in Thedas is for all intents and purposes a contract to bind families and make legitimate children, so...no, probably not.
The reason why nations make strides in Social Justice, ranging from the supremacy of parliment, to law reform, to sufferage, to racial and cultural equality, to gay marriage, all of these happen in the Britain and Canada is because of "Social justice Warriors."
No, Social Justice is about equality when it comes to wealth, social status and privilege. While it does also encompass equality under the law that's not really it's focus. It's more about a moral equality. SJW is also generally not used to refer to just anyone who is in favor of or who fights for Social Justice, although it's becoming more common for people to misuse it.
I support all of those things you listed but I am somewhat skeptical of certain elements of the social justice movement.
The intersection of marriage and romance is a relatively modern notion, so that doesn't really bother me, especially since same sex couples wouldn't face the issues they do today like visitation and funeral rights because marriage would be a religious and social arrangement rather than a legal one like it is today. Unlike contemporary times, marriage was primarily a business contract between families in order to gain power and produce heirs. Unfortunately, with the exception of Alistair/Anora/Warden, the other major mentions of marriage from Leandra and Aveline are completely modern and that is anachronistic and a slip on Bioware's part.
Er, no it isn't. It is not a fictional story set within a real-world historical milieu. How is it a slip, since Bioware isn't writing a story set in an existing real world society during a time period in which companionate marriage wouldn't have been a thing?
Yes, it's true that companionate marriage is a modern concept for the real world. No, that does not mean that it is anachronistic for it to be in Dragon Age, because DA is an entirely fictionalized world and there is no reason why companionate marriage should not exist within the setting. People really need to stop this tendency to assume that a fantastical setting should precisely mirror real-world development in order to not be considered anachronistic or even implausible. Especially when the subject is cultural constructs rather than technological ones: companionate marriage in the DA setting isn't anachronistic at all, because DA cultural trends followed their own track according to the fictionalized history.
The problem with SJW is that they come to game and start criticizing it because there is something which they didn´t like, but not from the gameplay, story perspective but only because their political agenda is either missing or they found something offensive. Look at the Sarkeesian, she criticized DA:O based on one scene from the game, but overlooked tons of strong female characters in the game. If there was something like a SJW in film studions, then there would be a problem to release almost each film. Most of those so-called SJW went on trainwreck led by people like Sarkeesian, which has nothning to offer, just a nitpicking and doing wrong or weak points... In my country we have none of these issue of patriarchy or whatever.
If the SJW would like to do something at all, they would look for developer which is looking forward to do a game which is politicaly correct or they would do such a game by themselves, instead of enforcing their agenda to the others, because they can damage PR in world media.
To begin with something, I doubt that even a heterosexual Inquisitors will have this opportunity...
Sarkeesian was doing a critique she wasn't saying one example of a sexualized trope in a game = bad/evil game. She wasn't doing a review of DA:O. She was doing a critique of the video game industry and showing that these tropes exist and examples of said tropes. A critique is NOT a review. A good critique shows a wide range of games. It is important not to judge the critique by the yard stick of "well there are a lot worse examples of games out there." Pointing out only the worst examples creates a skewed impartial picture. Showing how even the "best" games have these sexualized tropes in them provides context. It shows it isn't isolated but sestemic and thats an important context.
A critique is designed to make us discuss issues. Anita puts forth the idea that these sexualized tropes are not harmless, everytime an idiot threatens her life or a female game designers life over this issue adds more evidence that Anita is right. If she was just a crack pot why would anyone feel threatened by her comments? if her ideas had zero merit why the hostility? The whole ethics in video game journalism because of the claimed collusion has been proven to be a fabrication. If people were really concerned about ethics in video game journalism they would have retracted their objections to Anita Sarkeesians critique because the claim has been proven to be false. But if you just use it as a smoke screen to try and undermine her critique then you don't care about the validity of the claim because its only to mask the agenda of attacking her.
No, Social Justice is about equality when it comes to wealth, social status and privilege. While it does also encompass equality under the law that's not really it's focus. It's more about a moral equality. SJW is also generally not used to refer to just anyone who is in favor of or who fights for Social Justice, although it's becoming more common for people to misuse it.
I support all of those things you listed but I am somewhat skeptical of certain elements of the social justice movement.
Well Canada is also from my perspective more progressive on those issue. We are a socialist state, we do beleive in wealth ditribution to some extent, it is why we have socialized medicine. (Just an FYI socialism =/= communism for anyone reading that thinks it does.) But again the US has to find its own path. Sure I can look south and go "WTF?" when i see the hate for health care reformbut its not my place to say what the US should do. I only know that I hold these values as vital to the health of Canada. I am glad that the vast majority of Canadians agree with me.
[Bold, Italics underlining mine]
That is utter self centered BS. If you honestly think it was some bloody thread campaign that included same sex relations to DA:I then you are deluded. Because we all KNOW what a regressive company bioware is I mean thank gawd bioware finally caved to the thread pressure of same sex relationships errr... Oh wait they have been at the forefront of the AAA gaming industry with regards to same sex romances. Bioware started to view inclusiveness as important with KOTOR, sure it was a very minor insignificant step forward but it was a step forward. They have had same sex relationships in all their major titles since. (FYI Kotor 2 isn't by bioware) Granted it took ME a little longer to get M/M relationships but DA has had them since the FRAKING beginning!!!!!
You HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!! You self important poster. Threads like this had NOTHING to do with it. Men and women decades before the fraking world wide web was even a twinckle in someones eye, started this fight. they won it.
DO NOT imply that BioWare is doing this because of thread pressure. Bioware didn't get here all at once but they have moved faster than anyone else and they have moved because they felt it was important to show the diversity of the world they live in and to be inclusive. Which is why same sex relationship are interactive not passive background.
But no I am sure it was all down to people coming here to post a thread on same sex relations that convinced Bioware to include something they have had in this franchise since day one. [golf clap] Well done what would we have done without you?
I so hate when people just make crap up and lie through their teeth.
How is it self-centered when I am not a homosexual?
But to address your rant, Bioware adding same sex content had nothing to do with caving to the pressure. I do not know where you think I implied otherwise. Rather, threads like the one you are in yet think shouldn't exist(thus begging the question of why you are still here after you said your piece) showed Bioware that they had a lot of fans who wanted same sex content. This is not the sole reason they did it, but rather one of most likely several that helped the decision process since it showed there was a demand and thus they saw doing so as a good business venture since at the time like you said there was no real market for that. So they were pretty much the sole supplier of that demand. After all, their games that did not have this content still sold very well. And after the same sex content was implemented, threads showing appreciation and positive feedback for the content helped secure, again with other factors, the position that it was the right thing to do.
Also, did I ever say that it was threads like these that resulted in a civil rights movement for the LGBT community? The answer is no, I did not. Nor did I claim I had anything to do with it, so I don't get where you think I am trying to claim glory or whatever you think I am doing.
As for Dragon Age having homosexuality since the beginning, you are right. We have had homosexual relations since the beginning. However, Inquisition is the first Dragon Age game that has homosexual companions in it in the form of Dorian and Sera. All other characters who partook in homosexual relations in previous titles were bisexual, not homosexual. As for taking credit for it, again I do no such thing.
She wasn't doing a review of DA:O. She was doing a critique of the video game industry and showing that these troupes exist and examples of said troupes. A critique is NOT a review. A good critique shows a wide range of games.
My problem with her use of that clip was that she attached it to an argument about females lives being sort of seen as worthless and didn't talk about the fact that this was what that plot was meant to be about. She was seen as worthless by those humans because she was an elf and if you play female your male elf fiance gets pretty much the same treatment for pretty much the same reasons the same reasons.
So yeah it just about fits the trope but not really for the reasons she claimed and her gender was arguably not that important, this is the case with a lot of her examples.
everytime an idiot threatens her life or a female game designers life over this issue adds more evidence that Anita is right.
I don't understand this argument, it makes no logical sense yet people keep making it.
The whole ethics in video game journalism because of the claimed collusion has been proven to be a fabrication.
No it hasn't.
If people were really concerned about ethics in video game journalism they would have retracted their objections to Anita Sarkeesians critique because the claim has been proven to be false. But if you just use it as a smoke screen to try and undermine her critique then you don't care about the validity of the claim because its only to mask the agenda of attacking her
I have been following this discussion, Anita had literally nothing to do with it until she released a video in the middle of it and received death threats, Those threats were blamed on the gamers even though it has now been proven that they had nothing to do with the issue. As I said already, people on both sides of this discussion have behaved horribly.
If you guys wanna talk about this I suggest you take it to PM's. I am happy for anyone to PM me on the issue I have done a lot of research into this recent scandal as well as into Anita's work, her supporters and her critics.
Also, let's leave real world issues out of the thread. It is against Site Rules to talk about them.
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