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[Goth Skunk]

Anyone else still awake at this hour?

 

There are a few thoughts running through my head at the moment and I have this urge to just get them off my chest. I feel like this is a good place to post them, because this community here is one that I think should be more welcoming to a random, lonely person speaking their mind.

 

The first: Death, when used as a fail state in video games, is harmful to the player's immersion.

 

This is a thought that has been running through my mind on occasion in the last few months. With the release of Alien: Isolation, it jumped right back into the forefront of my personal introspection when, during a particular mission where I had to avoid the xenomorph in a medlab, I was killed either by the xenomorph or other forces in excess of 30 times before finally managing to overcome the obstacle in my way.

 

After the tenth death, I could feel myself becoming detached from the immersion of the game. I was no longer afraid of the xenomorph; I was annoyed with it. It constantly placed itself between me and my objective. It never seemed to move in a logical pattern and always seemed to be within a dangerous distance of me at all times, simply because I was there. Oftentimes it would walk past a room I was hiding in, then magically happen to turn around when I opened the door to the hallway and see me in the doorway. Once it saw me, that was it, the jig was up. There's no escaping the xenomorph once it's actually zero'd in on you. Any attempt was futile. And so, after my tenth death or so, I would just give up. If the xenomorph saw me, I wouldn't even try. I would just stand there and accept my inevitable death.

 

Compare this to the first time the xenomorph is encountered during a scripted scene, which was an edge-of-your-seat terrifying experience, especially when you have the Xbox One kinect sensor programmed to alert nearby enemies if you make a loud enough sound in your play space. Never before has a game actually compelled the player to control their breathing and lower their voice to a whisper, lest they get themselves detected. When the xenomorph makes its first ever appearance, it is scripted to be looking away from you, then walks away from you, calmly, carefully walking through an open promenade, stalking, hunting. It may be an efficient killer, but the player has the advantage of knowing where it is, how it's moving, and how to avoid it.

 

I recognize that as an unarmed human, Amanda Ripley is at a significant disadvantage to the xenomorph in terms of survivability. However, by virtue of paying attention to the canon story of the Alien universe, I also know that Amanda Ripley dies of natural causes on Earth, not by a xenomorph on the Sevastopol. Because the xenomorph instantly kills Ripley if it catches her, this implies that it never caught her in the canon story. Do you think it's possible to beat Alien: Isolation without dying once to the xenomorph? I personally do not, and this puts me at a conflict. I know she succeeds, because the canon story says so. But I, the player in control of her, fail to adhere to the canon story each time I get caught.

 

This is where things start getting really deep.

 

In Alien: Isolation, death is a fail state. When you die, the game is over. But, like many games nowadays, this fail state is remedied by reloading a recent save or starting again from the most recent checkpoint, and I don't know a single gamer who would bat an eyelash at this concept. But when you reload from a recent save, you're introducing something new into the adventure that you did not have in your previous attempt: The knowledge that there is danger ahead. With this knowledge in mind, you advance slowly, more cautiously, looking for potential escape routes or means to take what advantage you can in your situation before you confront the danger. But this is part of the problem I have: When you know there is danger ahead, what is there to be afraid of?

 

Here's another way to look at it:

Imagine you're watching Alien for the very first time. This is very important. The crew of the Nostromo touch down on LV-426 to investigate the mysterious signal that Mother has discovered. Kane discovers the room with all the eggs. He moves to examine one more closely, and it then opens up. Upon seeing this, Kane then turns around and runs in the opposite direction, back towards his fellow crew, Dallas and Lambert.

"We need to leave, now!" He tells them.

"Why?" Dallas asks,

"Because there is a critter inside that egg, and if it gets out, it's going to latch onto my face and shove a tube down my throat!"

You, as someone watching the movie for the very first time, would probably wonder how exactly Kane knew this. There's no explanation for his knowledge outside of precognition. It would make no logical sense in terms of story telling.

 

In essence, this is exactly what happens when someone plays a video game and reaches the fail state of death, then respawns at the last checkpoint. They are basically rewinding the story, and then proceeding forward again with knowledge of upcoming danger that they would have never had otherwise. And it is only after this danger point is overcome and the player is once again treading new, unfamiliar ground that the immersion is restored.

 

If I had any say in the development of Alien: Isolation, I would have brought this point up. I would have suggested that it is important to keep the xenomorph's killing potential respectable, but also acknowledge that as far as the canon story goes, Ripley must live. Give the player the means to escape from the xenomorph if she has high health, penalizing her with a reduction in health every time she gets caught. Kill her only if she's too weak to escape the xenomorph.

 

This narrative I've spun about death is most intense in games of the Survival Horror genre, but could also be applied to games in other genres. Take Mass Effect, for example. I always found the design of the combat in Mass Effect games to be superb. Even on the highest difficulty setting in any of the Mass Effect games, you are given the tools necessary to succeed without dying. Every fight is winnable, so long as you demonstrate the necessary skill in each pull of the trigger, make good use of cover, and wise use of ability combos to maximize your damage output. All too often in other games, especially in Call of Duty single player campaigns, it is impossible to beat the game without dying and it becomes a trivial exercise of trial and error in order to reach your next objective. 'It didn't work when I did that, so I'm going to try this next time.' 'Nope, that didn't work either. Maybe if I do this instead...'

 

I must also acknowledge that this form of degraded gameplay immersion through previous knowledge persists when a player plays through a game multiple times. The purest form of immersion comes only once -- through the games first initial playthrough. But in this case, it's more like reading a book again or watching a movie again. Yes, you already know how the story goes, but it's still a wonderful story, even if you already know who wins in the end.

[Dominus]

In essence, this is exactly what happens when someone plays a video game and reaches the fail state of death, then respawns at the last checkpoint. They are basically rewinding the story, and then proceeding forward again with knowledge of upcoming danger that they would have never had otherwise. And it is only after this danger point is overcome and the player is once again treading new, unfamiliar ground that the immersion is restored.

I'm eventually going to stop ranting about Dark Souls on this message board...

...but Dark Souls. I've never played Alien: Isolation, but the game philosophy reminds me of that. Their might be initial fear when treading new ground, but learning from your mistakes removes that to a great extent. DS at least finds a more organic explanation for rewinding time.

Then you get examples like Heavy Rain which flatout keep the characters dead if a mistake is made(or imprisoned or what-have-you). It's one of the few exceptions I can think of where gamers don't get a mulligan in terms of character death.

Mass Effect does have strong combat, and it's improved with every iteration.

[TurianRebel212]

lol, I agree. 

 

Also. Never. Ever. NEVER, play Dark Souls games, lol. You will hate them. 

 

There is a fine line, very fine, between a game that is legitimately difficult and a game that is just hard to be hard. 

 

 

For example, you spoke of CoD, well I'm gonna talk about a true legit, skill, twitch and knowledge based FPS that has the best AI in the genre and amazingly difficult yet doable segments. 

 

 

The HALO series. 

 

 

HALO approaches legendary and it's hardest even most punishing difficultly (mythic) like you should. It doesn't just throw endless enemies at you or enemies that are using vastly OP weapons/tactics. Enemies in HALO have the same weapons you do. 

 

It's a level playing field. But... Their AI is proactive vs. reactive and they're unpredictable and downright cunning, especially Elites and the likes. 

 

See, HALO does it right. Difficult. Brutal. Punishing for n00bs and derptards alike. But.... approachable and doable and rewarding to a skilled player. 

 

But.... not all games are like that. Many are like CoD or whatever, that either throw wave after wave of invisible wave at you or give the AI amazing weapons and/or powers. 

 

True, legit, great game design and difficulty is really tough to do. Most devs just aren't that talented nor do they pay enough attention to detail. 

[Goth Skunk]

Dark Souls is an exception to the rule. I've not played the game, but my understanding of it is that death is not a fail state, but an additional component in gameplay. Much like it was in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. In that game, Raziel does not technically "die," but is instead transported back to the ethereal realm, where he must regain enough energy to return to the material realm.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The solution to this conundrum is obviously Ironman playthroughs to become the mandatory standard setting in all games.

[TurianRebel212]

I've never played a Mass Effect game on lower than anything other than Hardcore. So, I've only experienced Mass Effect with how I think it was meant to be played. Difficult with knowledge of damage models/ROF and power usage and combos enemies health vs. player health and so fourth. 

 

 

Although, in my opinion, ME3 is so, so weak on Insanity. When I play ME3 I play with Operative MOD for a challenge. 

 

 

But..... I think a game like Dark Souls 2, is just at times being difficulty to just be difficult. At times. But... I guess that's the hook. 

[Goth Skunk]

The solution to this conundrum is obviously Ironman playthroughs to become the mandatory standard setting in all games.

 

I disagree. Ironman playthroughs still have the problem of the player knowing exactly what happens up until the moment where they last died.

 

I believe a better solution would be to do away with the ability for enemies to kill you in one hit. Like those chainsaw dudes in Resident Evil and Evil Within

[Dominus]

Their AI is proactive vs. reactive and they're unpredictable and downright cunning, especially Elites and the likes.

Very true, Black Elites from Halo 2 still give me nightmares. Most FPSes(or games in general) got the variety and attention they had.

In that game, Raziel does not technically "die," but is instead transported back to the ethereal realm, where he must regain enough energy to return to the material realm.

Aye, and came with neat gameplay/puzzle elements if I remember right. Twas cool.

But..... I think a game like Dark Souls 2, is just at times being difficulty to just be difficult. At times. But... I guess that's the hook.

Most of the Souls Series has relatively fair difficulty, and then you get ridiculous moments like the archers in Anor Londo, or Capra Demon.
 

Ultimately, Death is still going to kill immersion if reloading is involved. I'm all ears if there's a better solution tho.

[TurianRebel212]

lol, I remember playing HALO CE anniversary a few weeks ago and I died when this Elite stuck me with a nade and then he hid behind a rock. So the next life, I was alright. So, this Elite is gonna do 1 of two things, 1) He'll go for the stick again and then dodge 2) He'll fire with his Needler then hide behind the rock. 

 

 

NOPE. 

 

 

He charged me and did this bizarre like ultra super alien jump, melee'd me, took my shields down, so as I jumped backwards he then stuck me with a nade..... Dafuq, I thought Tsquared was playing as this Elite, lol. It was a legit "MLG pro" move, lol. 

 

THAT is great AI. 

 

Unpredictable and proactive. 

[Seraphim24]

This is one of those difficulty issues ultimately. I guess it does make the game more immersive to feel like you really are being tested or trying hard to succeed, but it's also just something you can insert anywhere without really relying on a death mechanic. I'm pretty sure Ikaruga or something is plenty challenging and immersive despite the presence of additional lives. 

 

For instance Witcher 2 had an insane mode where death was death, you didn't get any saves or any additional lives. This is in a 40 hour plus single player campaign type of game. It's exactly that, insane. I seriously doubt anyone ever completed that game on insane their very first attempt with no additional knowledge about the game, which means if you are trying it mostly you are just backtracking through stuff you already did to get to the part you lost on, so it's not that fun. 

 

Guh I should read more basically the point about re-loading, no one really likes to do the same thing twice. 

 

Soul Reaver was pretty immersive also despite the near impossibility of death IMO, because of some of the puzzles and things like that I felt engaged like I really had to apply myself but there was no risk of backtracking per se. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

I disagree. Ironman playthroughs still have the problem of the player knowing exactly what happens up until the moment where they last died.

 

I believe a better solution would be to do away with the ability for enemies to kill you in one hit. Like those chainsaw dudes in Resident Evil and Evil Within

 

How the hell does that solve anything?

 

The only "solution" is enough randomness so that just because you know what to expect the first time, you don't know what will happen on reload.

 

In some respect A:I does a good job with the AI randomness, since oyu dont' know where it is. You reloaded, but that doesn't mean the alien will find you at the same place as last time.
 

[The Poster]

Be immersed by the challenge, yo.

[Zeroth Angel]

This thread reminds me of this vid I watched a year ago or so.

 

 

I agree that death breaks the immersion somewhat but I doubt that is something that can easily get fixed. Not that it bothers me that much but it is always nice to play a game were it's actually integrated in the story.

[TheClonesLegacy]

David Cage? Is that you?
Your games suck!

[mybudgee]

[Goth Skunk]

How the hell does that solve anything?

 

The only "solution" is enough randomness so that just because you know what to expect the first time, you don't know what will happen on reload.

 

In some respect A:I does a good job with the AI randomness, since oyu dont' know where it is. You reloaded, but that doesn't mean the alien will find you at the same place as last time.
 

I remember the first time I played Resident Evil 4 and encountered one of the Chainsaw guys in the very first village. While I understood the logic that a 7 foot tall man wielding a chainsaw was able to decapitate me because I let him get too close, the idea that I could be killed in one shot, despite having full health, was something of a foreign concept from a video game to me at the time. Considering how much of a bullet sponge the guy is as well, there came a point after my third or fourth attempt where I subconsciously asked the question 'Can this guy actually be killed? Should I instead try to run around the area and fool him into using his chainsaw in a way to open up the path to the next area?' It turns out the second part of the question was right, since the villagers then get summoned to church by a ringing of the bells. That only worked for the one encounter though. In later encounters, these NPC's had to be riddled with bullets in order to be stopped.

 

It's worth noting that I acknowledge how not knowing exactly what to do during a particular encounter is part of the intrigue of survival-horror games. No genre of video game triggers the fight-or-flight instinct of a player better. But I find it frustrating that some enemies in these games automatically trigger a fail state just because they walk up and touch you, especially if you are uninjured.

 

This thread reminds me of this vid I watched a year ago or so.

 

 

I agree that death breaks the immersion somewhat but I doubt that is something that can easily get fixed. Not that it bothers me that much but it is always nice to play a game were it's actually integrated in the story.

 

Fantastic video! And it did a better job of explaining my views in ten minutes better than my rambling wall of text.

[Jorji Costava]

I dunno; I usually find myself thinking that story/gameplay segregation issues (which the issue of "Why isn't death acknowledged narratively?" falls under) are overstated in their importance. For example, perhaps we can treat most games' failure to explain how death is integrated with the overall narrative as no different from most musicals' failure to explain why people would suddenly be compelled to sing and dance before entering a life-or-death situation. Is there a conceptual flaw here, or merely a convention which you can take or leave?

 

Still, there is a significant issue in the general vicinity of this discussion of the relationship between story and gameplay, which is that even on their own terms, independent of how they are integrated with story/cutscenes, most gameplay activities just aren't narratively or thematically interesting. I'll explain what I mean by going along with the musical example: It might be weird for people to just start singing and dancing out of the blue, but usually, the songs and dances of musicals are still communicating narrative and thematic information: about the state of the characters' minds, their attitudes, the larger societal issues which the musical may be trying to address, etc.

 

By contrast, most gameplay activity doesn't communicate any of this kind of information. For instance, Dragon Age: Origins is ostensibly a character-driven story about issues like freedom vs. security (mages vs. templars), social inequalities (the elves), etc. But most of your gameplay activity (fighting, looting, etc.) doesn't say or suggest anything about this stuff. You don't learn about the struggles of oppressed people for freedom or even about Alistair's current state of mind by fighting giant spiders or darkspawn. Even if you had plausible narrative explanations for gameplay events like death, you'd still have this deeper disconnect between story and gameplay.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

You could also do what Shadow of Mordor does and make it (dying) apart of the narrative/gameplay with bosses who kill you remember what happened, and evolve/level up as a result.

 

Though I daresay it won't work for every game, it was a very novel and successful approach to tackling the issue.

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm eventually going to stop ranting about Dark Souls on this message board......but Dark Souls.

Don't stop brother, don't ever stop

In Dark Souls the PC and most other characters and creatures are undead and can only keep their sanity and bodies from deteriorating by consuming and feeding on souls, the game's currency and humanity, a rare resource. Every time you die, you loose all non-invested souls and only get one chance at retrieving them from the spot where you died last. The more you die, the more you hollow and loose health (in DkS2). Consuming humanity reverses hollowing again.

You respawn at the last kindled bonfire (checkpoint), at which you also regain health and some consumables. Since most enemies are undead too though, they will respawn as well. The game's lore takes it to a whole different level by adding warped and relative time zones to the plot as well.

Some areas/features even require you to die, so death is definitely a major factor in the game.

[mybudgee]

Just RP "dead is DEAD" and when you die, put the game down and never pick it up again. See? Easy

[TheClonesLegacy]

In all seriousness, I've never cared for this "Gameplay/Story segregation" crap.

Story gives you context to what you're doing in game.

 

For Example.

The story of Super Mario 64? The Princess invites Mario over for cake, she goes missing, Mario goes to save her.

Red Dead Redemption? A former criminal is forced to track down his old partners at the tail-end of the heavily romanticized wild west era.

Shadow of the Colossus? A boy tries to resurrect his lover by killing 16 guardians as tasked by a goldlike entity. Slowly being corrupted by his evil.

Castlevania Lords of Shadow? Monsters are overrunning the world. Kill the beings in control.

 

There's more too it than that. But that's ultimately all story in games are. Context. It's allowed to be well-written and have likable characters. But gameplay is what's important and what should be considered above all. You all are making story in games too big for its britches.

 

Be immersed by the challenge, yo.

This is the best response to the segregation I've seen.

 

These are games. They're allowed to be works of art, and are allowed to have great stories. But they need to still be considered games to have fun with...since that's what they are...

 

As for your suggestion for Isolation...

 I had any say in the development of Alien: Isolation, I would have brought this point up. I would have suggested that it is important to keep the xenomorph's killing potential respectable, but also acknowledge that as far as the canon story goes, Ripley must live. Give the player the means to escape from the xenomorph if she has high health, penalizing her with a reduction in health every time she gets caught. Kill her only if she's too weak to escape the xenomorph.

 That type of Alien is a Drone. Wanna know what drones do? They kill foreign life forms so it can begin constructing a nest for the queen. Where's the respectable part of your suggestion? Xenomorphs don't mess around. They don't give you "Reduced health" Love taps. It kills you. That is its BIOLOGICAL Purpose. It would've been more immersion breaking if we had it your way.

As for this...

Here's another way to look at it:

Imagine you're watching Alien for the very first time. This is very important. The crew of the Nostromo touch down on LV-426 to investigate the mysterious signal that Mother has discovered. Kane discovers the room with all the eggs. He moves to examine one more closely, and it then opens up. Upon seeing this, Kane then turns around and runs in the opposite direction, back towards his fellow crew, Dallas and Lambert.

"We need to leave, now!" He tells them.

"Why?" Dallas asks,

"Because there is a critter inside that egg, and if it gets out, it's going to latch onto my face and shove a tube down my throat!"

You, as someone watching the movie for the very first time, would probably wonder how exactly Kane knew this. There's no explanation for his knowledge outside of precognition. It would make no logical sense in terms of story telling.

 

 

What about films with precognitive characters like Snowpiercer? Or time traveling characters like in Terminator or Days of Future Past? Do those films ruin your immersion? It's pretty much the same as the scenario you put forward.

 

 

Just RP "dead is DEAD" and when you die, put the game down and never pick it up again. See? Easy

I was going to suggest the same

[Goth Skunk]

I dunno; I usually find myself thinking that story/gameplay segregation issues (which the issue of "Why isn't death acknowledged narratively?" falls under) are overstated in their importance. For example, perhaps we can treat most games' failure to explain how death is integrated with the overall narrative as no different from most musicals' failure to explain why people would suddenly be compelled to sing and dance before entering a life-or-death situation. Is there a conceptual flaw here, or merely a convention which you can take or leave?

 

Still, there is a significant issue in the general vicinity of this discussion of the relationship between story and gameplay, which is that even on their own terms, independent of how they are integrated with story/cutscenes, most gameplay activities just aren't narratively or thematically interesting. I'll explain what I mean by going along with the musical example: It might be weird for people to just start singing and dancing out of the blue, but usually, the songs and dances of musicals are still communicating narrative and thematic information: about the state of the characters' minds, their attitudes, the larger societal issues which the musical may be trying to address, etc.

 

By contrast, most gameplay activity doesn't communicate any of this kind of information. For instance, Dragon Age: Origins is ostensibly a character-driven story about issues like freedom vs. security (mages vs. templars), social inequalities (the elves), etc. But most of your gameplay activity (fighting, looting, etc.) doesn't say or suggest anything about this stuff. You don't learn about the struggles of oppressed people for freedom or even about Alistair's current state of mind by fighting giant spiders or darkspawn. Even if you had plausible narrative explanations for gameplay events like death, you'd still have this deeper disconnect between story and gameplay.

 

I would find it difficult to draw a comparison between actively participating in a story, and observing an actor's performance as they break into a contextually relevant song-and-dance routine. For one, in the case of Alien: Isolation, I am Amanda Ripley (except for the cutscenes and other moments where she has scripted dialogue). I am an active participant in the story, propelling it forward by getting her from one point to the next. Whereas in the example of the musical, I am actively observing but only passively partaking in the story.

[Goth Skunk]

Just RP "dead is DEAD" and when you die, put the game down and never pick it up again. See? Easy

Goodness, if I adopted that mantra, I would have had to stop playing The Evil Within after 2 minutes.