305 réponses à ce sujet

[Jazzpha]

I'm fairly sure that demons have never, ever been demonstrated to be that stealthy. Of the three abominations who looked normal, two went on rampages immediately anyway, and the third waited just long enough to set up an ambush to kill Merrill. And giving this "experience" a decent chance for actual fatality is simply unacceptable to me; it might be useful for immersion, but the cost is far too high. Especially since those societies like the Dalish don't do that, to our knowledge, and yet aren't more prone to possession (the one possession we have seen was self-inflicted).

Except for the cat demon we encounter in the Stone Prisoner, who's intent on playing it low key for a very long time if you let it possess the girl.

[Xilizhra]

Except for the cat demon we encounter in the Stone Prisoner, who's intent on playing it low key for a very long time if you let it possess the girl.

Ah, yes, because believing what demons tell you at face value always works?

 

The girl is also not, to my knowledge, a mage, so the result wouldn't be an abomination anyway.

[Esteed789]

I'm fairly sure that demons have never, ever been demonstrated to be that stealthy. Of the three abominations who looked normal, two went on rampages immediately anyway, and the third waited just long enough to set up an ambush to kill Merrill. And giving this "experience" a decent chance for actual fatality is simply unacceptable to me; it might be useful for immersion, but the cost is far too high. Especially since those societies like the Dalish don't do that, to our knowledge, and yet aren't more prone to possession (the one possession we have seen was self-inflicted).

 

You do know soldiers can die in training accidents, right?  These things aren't bloodless.  Or how about the far less serious professional athletic practices that end careers when someone has the misfortune to blow out a knee or something.

 

We haven't really seen day-to-day life for Dalish mages, so I don't know if we can say confidently they don't have a Harrowing equivalent.  Even if they don't, I'd wager Keepers have some way of disabusing their Firsts from the notion that "it won't happen to me".

 

If there was a way around removing the lethality from the Harrowing without undermining the usefulness of the whole thing, I'd be all for it.  My solution to that would be focusing much more on exorcism than the Circles seem to.  Having a small group of mages within the Circle trained and ready to perform the exorcism ritual would remove the necessity of killing a failed Harrowing candidate without rendering it useless as a test of whether a mage can resist demonic possession under real world circumstances, and I'm all for that.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Esteed789:  Magic as pollution has nothing to do with dogma. Also - magic, not mages.

 

Weakening the Veil endangers everyone - the same way as poisoning your water supply does. 

 

There are "acceptable levels" the environment can maintain - but doing so without monitoring is suicidal (and I absolutely believe that Tevinter monitors on a far harsher scale than lower Thedas).

[Xilizhra]

You do know soldiers can die in training accidents, right?  These things aren't bloodless.  Or how about the far less serious professional athletic practices that end careers when someone has the misfortune to blow out a knee or something.

They can, sure. But that's not an accepted cost that has a 50-50 chance of happening (maybe 25-75 if I'm being generous).

 

 

We haven't really seen day-to-day life for Dalish mages, so I don't know if we can say confidently they don't have a Harrowing equivalent.  Even if they don't, I'd wager Keepers have some way of disabusing their Firsts from the notion that "it won't happen to me".

Given the Dalish's low population, I daresay that way would be less lethal.

 

 

If there was a way around removing the lethality from the Harrowing without undermining the usefulness of the whole thing, I'd be all for it.  My solution to that would be focusing much more on exorcism than the Circles seem to.  Having a small group of mages within the Circle trained and ready to perform the exorcism ritual would remove the necessity of killing a failed Harrowing candidate without rendering it useless as a test of whether a mage can resist demonic possession under real world circumstances, and I'm all for that.

It wouldn't be useless anyway, and your solution, aside from not really working when it comes to forcible possession, would leave horrible scars on anyone who survived, something that Marethari mentions at the beginning of A New Path.

[Esteed789]

Soilders in training do not get killed for failing a test for their training but on the field of battle might get harmed, after their training. They also aren't in fear of being made to have a magical lobotomy done on them just because they are too weak to go through the completion test for that training. They also don't fear the Goverments killing them if they chose to leave from the life in question and can have a family to go home too if they survive the battle or the training.

 

Currently, a failed Harrowing has far more serious repercussions than a soldier failing a test.  These things are not really equivalent due to that.  As far as tranquility goes, I agree that it shouldn't be forced on them.  An apprentice who has not broken any laws but does not want to take the Harrowing should absolutely be given the choice for themselves, though I've said what I think of choices where the other option is "or death" previously.  I do wholeheartedly support researching alternate ways of removing someone's ability to cast spells that don't have the lobotomy side effects, especially when as of Asunder we have concrete proof that tranquility doesn't even really do what the templars want it to do, i.e. keeping the mage from being possessed.

[Medhia_Nox]

As a note - soldiers die in peace time training way too often. 

[Esteed789]

They can, sure. But that's not an accepted cost that has a 50-50 chance of happening (maybe 25-75 if I'm being generous).

 

 

Given the Dalish's low population, I daresay that way would be less lethal.

 

 

It wouldn't be useless anyway, and your solution, aside from not really working when it comes to forcible possession, would leave horrible scars on anyone who survived, something that Marethari mentions at the beginning of A New Path.

 

The Harrowing is meant to test a mage against demonic possession under real world circumstances.  That is the point and purpose of the thing.  Adding in mages ready to swoop in and save the day if things go bad removes those real world conditions from the test, so you can't trust that the mage is really prepared to face the constant demonic temptations on their own.

 

IF, and this is a big if, you developed some way of guaranteeing that the candidate would not be able to detect the other mages, then hell yes, do that.  But if you can't make that guarantee, IMO, you run the risk of invalidating the results.  Even then, though, the question is what do you do with a failed candidate?  Sort of leaves you right back in the "tranquility or death" situation you were in, except now there's not a third option.

[Xilizhra]

The Harrowing is meant to test a mage against demonic possession under real world circumstances.  That is the point and purpose of the thing.  Adding in mages ready to swoop in and save the day if things go bad removes those real world conditions from the test, so you can't trust that the mage is really prepared to face the constant demonic temptations on their own.

 

IF, and this is a big if, you developed some way of guaranteeing that the candidate would not be able to detect the other mages, then hell yes, do that.  But if you can't make that guarantee, IMO, you run the risk of invalidating the results.  Even then, though, the question is what do you do with a failed candidate?  Sort of leaves you right back in the "tranquility or death" situation you were in, except now there's not a third option.

Train them until they're better at resisting said temptation and give them another chance. Those who can't succeed just remain at the apprentice level permanently.

And I don't think test authenticity is something worthy enough to have lives spent on it.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  I absolutely agree with better training.

 

I think apprentices should even sit in on other people's Harrowings like those theaters where doctors would perform autopsies in the center of the room.  

 

1st session:  You sit in outside of the Fade and observe.

 

2nd session:  You sit in within the Fade and observe.

 

3rd session:  A "practice" Harrowing where you get limited exposure to a demon.

 

etc. etc. 

 

But... you should be trained in next to NO magic prior to your first successful, solitary Harrowing.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  I absolutely agree with better training.

 

I think apprentices should even sit in on other people's Harrowings like those theaters where doctors would perform autopsies in the center of the room.  

 

1st session:  You sit in outside of the Fade and observe.

 

2nd session:  You sit in within the Fade and observe.

 

3rd session:  A "practice" Harrowing where you get limited exposure to a demon.

 

etc. etc. 

 

But... you should be trained in next to NO magic prior to your first successful, solitary Harrowing.

I don't think that last part is a good idea. The main demon might only try to tempt you, but there are plenty of other Fade entities that will just try to kill you, as we can see in Origins.

[Barquiel]

The reality is, you can't let a tower full of abominations out into the world.  That's unacceptable under any circumstances.  As the number of survivors dwindles, you eventually have to start doing some ruthless arithmetic.  As ugly as it is, and it is very ugly, you reach a point where you have to decide whether saving a tiny group of survivors is worth risking setting a tower full of abominations loose, which pretty much guarantees a high death toll.
 
I'd say the same thing if there was a templar barracks full of possessed templars or a Warden outpost full of possessed Wardens.  Sometimes you have to make the ugly choices.

Sure, but not if they are not necessary...and I can't think of a scenario where the right of annulment would be necessary.

Let's for a moment assume the warden doesn't save the day in Ferelden's tower. The templar reinforcements would arrive...they would storm the tower just like the warden and her followers did...second room: Wynne and her small group. The codex and Wynne's dialogue make it pretty clear what would happen next. Why not spare these mages and examine them (I somehow doubt Wynne would attack on sight) after the battle is over? Then the templars could still execute any mages who are possessed, but the lifes of innocents would be saved.

The fact that this practice has persisted for centuries is one of the main reasons why I want to dissolve the templar order (giving the option).

[Ryriena]

The Harrowing is meant to test a mage against demonic possession under real world circumstances. That is the point and purpose of the thing. Adding in mages ready to swoop in and save the day if things go bad removes those real world conditions from the test, so you can't trust that the mage is really prepared to face the constant demonic temptations on their own.

IF, and this is a big if, you developed some way of guaranteeing that the candidate would not be able to detect the other mages, then hell yes, do that. But if you can't make that guarantee, IMO, you run the risk of invalidating the results. Even then, though, the question is what do you do with a failed candidate? Sort of leaves you right back in the "tranquility or death" situation you were in, except now there's not a third option.

How about let the other mages give advice and not send them in blindly to the point I find it hilariously unaffected for training purposes. You know teach them about demons and how they interact with you. Make sure to tell them that not everyone is going too be your friend in the fade, after all, we learn that with mouse, but i had no idea when I entered the fade because as Mouse said it sets the mages up to fail. Why else would the Templars not want the enchanter too give us advice on the Fade in the opening of the mage origin in DAO. It's commonly does not bold well for those soldiers that receive no training at all for the battles ahead. I know a few level one spells but know nothing of, what I might face while in the Fade.

[Medhia_Nox]

Annulments are a shabby practice that just seems like "a good idea totally, and utterly corrupted with sloth".  

 

Why a "good idea"?  Well - I absolutely believe that there's no compromising with Uldred.  The tower needs to be cleansed - and subversive elements are natural.

 

The execution is absolutely horrible.  

 

I actually think I would have a fool proof way of rooting out demons - even though, of course, Bioware gets to decide what would and would not be fool proof.

 

Sensory deprivation.  Why do demons come to Thedas in the first place?  To sense the world.  Putting mages rescued from an annulled Circle through sensory deprivation would cause any ingrained demons to go absolutely barmy.  (Again, Bioware decides what makes a demon go nuts - but I think it would make total sense in the lore.) 

 

Also - why mages can't scour the Fade for possession is something that's odd to me.  It wouldn't be fool proof and mages (I'd call the Exorcists) would have to be trained for this kind of thing - but I feel it would be a way for mages to take responsibility for who they are (and that's one of the key problems.  Mages in lower Thedas take no responsibility for who they are and what they can do.) 

[MisterJB]

How about let the other mages give advice and not send them in blindly to the point I find it hilariously unaffected for training purposes. You know teach them about demons and how they interact with you. Make sure to tell them that not everyone is going too be your friend in the fade, after all, we learn that with mouse, but i had no idea when I entered the fade because as Mouse said it sets the mages up to fail. Why else would the Templars not want the enchanter too give us advice on the Fade in the opening of the mage origin in DAO. It's commonly does not bold well for those soldiers that receive no training at all for the battles ahead. I know a few level one spells but know nothing of, what I might face while in the Fade.

In "Witch Hunt", you can find multiple books on the Fade and demons while in the library. Even if we assume apprentices aren't taught anything about the Fade, which I find it very unlikely, they are only unprepared if they want to because there's ton of books to read on the subject.

[Medhia_Nox]

@MisterJB:  True, but reading a book on skiing is not the same as being trained to ski.

 

I support the Harrowing - but I don't support the "seeming" lack of training.  It's important to remember that our experience with Thedas is limited to what the developers can program.  

 

What we do experience though - is Irving trying to help by instruction and being stopped - and your PC saying to Jowan:  "You know were forbidden to talk about it." 

 

There "may" even be a reason - the Fade is supposedly "preconception".  Though - I'd argue shaping those preconceptions only strengthens someone against something like perception.

[Ryriena]

In "Witch Hunt", you can find multiple books on the Fade and demons while in the library. Even if we assume apprentices aren't taught anything about the Fade, which I find it very unlikely, they are only unprepared if they want to because there's ton of books to read on the subject.

Books are a entirely a different thing, than actual training soldiers have gotten, since they actually do simulation battles and war games, for an other example to train for the real thing. So learning from books will not help us in the long run one must experience the place first hand and not at just the Harrowing and also to get better at things like battle techniques and strategies against these things inside the Fade.

[Ryriena]

@MisterJB: True, but reading a book on skiing is not the same as being trained to ski.

I support the Harrowing - but I don't support the "seeming" lack of training. It's important to remember that our experience with Thedas is limited to what the developers can program.

What we do experience though - is Irving trying to help by instruction and being stopped - and your PC saying to Jowan: "You know were forbidden to talk about it."

There "may" even be a reason - the Fade is supposedly "preconception". Though - I'd argue shaping those preconceptions only strengthens someone against something like perception.

Thats a good point about preconceptions and agreed on these points I like the idea of the Harrowing just how they make people run in their blindly by not allowing students to study the fade before hand and not letting other know what to expect is somthing I find wrong.

[RedWulfi]

I hope he's dead.

He's an ass.

And he's paranoid.

[EmperorSahlertz]

@MisterJB:  True, but reading a book on skiing is not the same as being trained to ski.

 

I support the Harrowing - but I don't support the "seeming" lack of training.  It's important to remember that our experience with Thedas is limited to what the developers can program. 

No... But there are no "beginner's slope" in the Fade. You either learn how to "ski" or you get possessed. That is the cold hard truth of magic in Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If there was a way around removing the lethality from the Harrowing without undermining the usefulness of the whole thing, I'd be all for it.  My solution to that would be focusing much more on exorcism than the Circles seem to.  Having a small group of mages within the Circle trained and ready to perform the exorcism ritual would remove the necessity of killing a failed Harrowing candidate without rendering it useless as a test of whether a mage can resist demonic possession under real world circumstances, and I'm all for that.

You don't see a lot of focus on exorcisms in the Circle because it is a mostly fruitless endeavor. Most possessions are not of the voluntary kind, meaning the mage is killed in the process, and the voluntary, in addition to being rare, might kill the mage in the process of the exorcism, and otherwise will certainly mark the mage for the rest of his life.

[Ryriena]

You don't see a lot of focus on exorcisms in the Circle because it is a mostly fruitless endeavor. Most possessions are not of the voluntary kind, meaning the mage is killed in the process, and the voluntary, in addition to being rare, might kill the mage in the process of the exorcism, and otherwise will certainly mark the mage for the rest of his life.

The thing is, it's not a fruitless endeavor as you've stated, in fact, Conner has gone through a exorcism and it did not kill him. Are you stating real world exorcism as fact for Thedas veiws on exorcism? Fact is all you have too do is a gather a group of mages in the circle and do a spell that does transfer you into the Fade and then kills the demon. It's not like the real world version of an exorcism were it can be deadly for the possessed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The thing is, it's not a fruitless endeavor as you've stated, in fact, Conner has gone through a exorcism and it did not kill him. Are you stating real world exorcism as fact for Thedas veiws on exorcism? Fact is all you have too do is a gather a group of mages in the circle and do a spell that does transfer you into the Fade and then kills the demon. It's not like the real world version of an exorcism were it can be deadly for the possessed.

I know Conner did, but he was a special case. I also did mention that mages of voluntary possession do sometimes survive, but they are marked for life.

 

The problem with exorcism in Thedas, is that it most often isn't even an option (the mage is already dead), and the only way to do it, is to risk another mage in trying to set it right. What you did in Redcliffe Castle was an ENORMOUS risk, since if the amge sent into the Fade had been overpowered by the demon, then you wouldn't jsut be facing one Abomination, but two. A catastrophic outcome.

[Ryriena]

I know Conner did, but he was a special case. I also did mention that mages of voluntary possession do sometimes survive, but they are marked for life.

The problem with exorcism in Thedas, is that it most often isn't even an option (the mage is already dead), and the only way to do it, is to risk another mage in trying to set it right. What you did in Redcliffe Castle was an ENORMOUS risk, since if the amge sent into the Fade had been overpowered by the demon, then you wouldn't jsut be facing one Abomination, but two. A catastrophic outcome.

Their is that word again might happen, and risk which is a subjective term.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Their is that word again might happen, and risk which is a subjective term.

"And earthquake MIGHT only happen in Japan, and the risk it pose is highly subjective"...... You see the problem in such a statement?