305 réponses à ce sujet

[Tevinter Soldier]

Hopefully he's alive so i can detain him give him a fare trial.

[TheKomandorShepard]

World of Thedas page 90.  you are seeing danger in people who aren't always dangerous.  that in and of itself can be a slippery slope and become even more dangerous than the danger you are seeing.

I don't have WoT but as i said doubt that non-mages have magic because that would make them mages and they aren't in any way and can't interact with that anyway.Every mage is dangerous by very fact they are mage it is repeated many times in series and non-mage can't be more dangerous that person can zap few hundreds peoples in an instant.Templars were zealots but never were danger for anyone other than mages and perhaps peoples that broke law and help mages even peoples like arlik among templars were protectors.

[themageguy]

Exactly this. People who see danger everywhere quickly become zealots, and zealots with power are far more dangerous than anything else.

Meredith being a prime example. Replaying da2, one of the Templars mentioned it wasn't until she arrived things had changed

[themageguy]

Interesting to note, the original inquisition (who would later split into seeker and templar orders) protected mages as much as people without magic.

They did not exist to put down mages, but rather used their talents to protect everyone from demons, cultists and maleficar.

Id be very surprised if Lambert is alive.

Part of me hopes that the two had a battle that left them both needing to escape and recuperate.

Maybe he will be part of Coles personal quest. Can you make him let go of any vendetta or will you as the inquisitor encourage bloodshed?
just my thoughts.

[Todrazok]

Hmm... assuming Cole did kill him, wouldn't his body have been found then? 

[berrieh]

I don't have WoT but as i said doubt that non-mages have magic because that would make them mages and they aren't in any way and can't interact with that anyway.Every mage is dangerous by very fact they are mage it is repeated many times in series and non-mage can't be more dangerous that person can zap few hundreds peoples in an instant.Templars were zealots but never were danger for anyone other than mages and perhaps peoples that broke law and help mages even peoples like arlik among templars were protectors.

 

The bit from WoT about everyone having magic is where it discusses everyone's connection to the Fade and how life itself is magic (magic is not just some external force). Only mages can manipulate magic. That is made very clear in the same WoT selection - just to clear up. So non-mages do "have magic" but they cannot manipulate it or use it. Magic is simply a part of the life force. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The bit from WoT about everyone having magic is where it discusses everyone's connection to the Fade and how life itself is magic (magic is not just some external force). Only mages can manipulate magic. That is made very clear in the same WoT selection - just to clear up. So non-mages do "have magic" but they cannot manipulate it or use it. Magic is simply a part of the life force. 

Life is life it isn't anything abnormal or magical about that non-mages as i said are equivalent of normal human in our and can't do anything with magic and by that they aren't they are more or less same dangerous as averge human in our world.Only mages are dangerous in terms of magic non-mages can't do anything with that.By that point that mages are equal to non-mages falls completly even if they are "magical" it isn't in any way dangerous unlike mages. 

[Jazzpha]

The thing that killed me about Lambert's portrayal in Asunder was that his character got slanted enormously in order to provide the book's plot with a designated antagonist. He comes across as a zealot more often than not because Rhys and co. are our predominant viewpoints, and he actively (sometimes violently) opposes the people with whom the author clearly expects us to sympathize.

 

The closest we get to seeing him in a human moment is a rather ham-fisted eleventh hour "I had a friend once who was a mage but then he was evil and stuff and it broke my heart so that justifies everything" speech, which rang hollow for me because we hadn't really had much of a chance before then to see him outside of "soldier mode".

 

If Lambert had been given more time to be human in his discourses with Evangeline and we'd spent less time listening to Adrian and Rhys kvetch about the Templars, I'm sure Lambert's reception would have been far more balanced among the fandom than it seems to currently be.

 

TL;DR If he shows up and acts in a believable, rational and reasonable manner, I'll hear him out, sure.

[berrieh]

Life is life it isn't anything abnormal or magical about that non-mages as i said are equivalent of normal human in our and can't do anything with magic and by that they aren't they are more or less same dangerous as averge human in our world.Only mages are dangerous in terms of magic non-mages can't do anything with that.By that point that mages are equal to non-mages falls completly even if they are "magical" it isn't in any way dangerous unlike mages. 

 

Only mages can manipulate magic, yes. I was just trying to explain to you what the WoT said since you didn't have access and the other person was quoting it obscurely. Specifically it says, "Magic courses through all living things in Thedas. Some even believe it is the power that gives all beings life. Yet despite magic's ubiquity, only a rare few possess the ability to manipulate it." Those few are mages, and the book explains that mages don't gain their abilities till late childhood/puberty and that many very minor mages even live outside of Circles (are allowed to remain so) since their magic is so weak. Lots of interesting things in WoT.

[berrieh]

The thing that killed me about Lambert's portrayal in Asunder was that his character got slanted enormously in order to provide the book's plot with a designated antagonist. He comes across as a zealot more often than not because Rhys and co. are our predominant viewpoints, and he actively (sometimes violently) opposes the people with whom the author clearly expects us to sympathize.

 

The closest we get to seeing him in a human moment is a rather ham-fisted eleventh hour "I had a friend once who was a mage but then he was evil and stuff and it broke my heart so that justifies everything" speech, which rang hollow for me because we hadn't really had much of a chance before then to see him outside of "soldier mode".

 

If Lambert had been given more time to be human in his discourses with Evangeline and we'd spent less time listening to Adrian and Rhys kvetch about the Templars, I'm sure Lambert's reception would have been far more balanced among the fandom than it seems to currently be.

 

TL;DR If he shows up and acts in a believable, rational and reasonable manner, I'll hear him out, sure.

 

You know, I was so mad at Lambert by the time he came in with the knife and so sure he frame Rhys, but those last few moments of the book really did make me reconsider his side, especially Rhys's conversation with Adrian, and shift blame further away from Seeker Lambert. From his point of view, with his limited knowledge, a lot of his decisions do make sense and aren't particularly vindictive or cruel. Yes, he's a hard-ass, but he's been called here because the previous Commander allowed a blood mage to get out and attack the Divine at a party and there have been ongoing murders no one can explain in the Tower. He's not exactly being seen on his easiest days, and he does explain his reasons for doing what he does and speak with some soberness about the necessity. 

 

I agree that it was skewed so he could be an antagonist (and it would have been great to read from his point of view) but I think you can also see, as you read it, that he's not some mustache-twirling villain. Anyone who saw only that couldn't get past their own bias. 

[Esteed789]

The closest we get to seeing him in a human moment is a rather ham-fisted eleventh hour "I had a friend once who was a mage but then he was evil and stuff and it broke my heart so that justifies everything" speech, which rang hollow for me because we hadn't really had much of a chance before then to see him outside of "soldier mode".

 

My problem with this was that it was one bad experience.  Just one.  And while you absolutely can use past experiences to determine present behavior, using one bad experience to justify extremism is a bit like someone saying, "Well, I was cheated on once, so there's no point in me dating anyone because everyone will cheat on me."  It's flawed logic that people will often use to hide that they're really just afraid to stick their neck out again, and that's what it was with Lambert.  Is it human?  Absolutely.  It's also, as humans are often, wrong.

[MisterJB]

My problem with this was that it was one bad experience.  Just one.  And while you absolutely can use past experiences to determine present behavior, using one bad experience to justify extremism is a bit like someone saying, "Well, I was cheated on once, so there's no point in me dating anyone because everyone will cheat on me."  It's flawed logic that people will often use to hide that they're really just afraid to stick their neck out again, and that's what it was with Lambert.  Is it human?  Absolutely.  It's also, as humans are often, wrong.

Lambert was born to a society founded upon the dominance of mages over all other life forms. It was due to this that he sought change; it was not "one bad experience", it was a lifetime of them. The betrayal by his best friend was simply the last drop.

 

Let us accept the fact that Lambert makes a whole lot of sense. Groups of people using anything they can to advance their interests at the expense of everyone else is the history of humanity; mages are not any different and of course, they would use magic to accumulate power and influence over non-mages.

That is not to say that Evangeline is one 100% wrong when she says pushing the mages too far can lead to problems but, ultimately, what has she done to protect the lives and independence of non-mages? Will she, by herself, be able to control the hundreds of mages that escaped?

[MisterJB]

Same can be said of religion.  Or people with swords or...

A sword will never be as dangerous as magic.

And while institutionalized power is, it is still reliant upon things like people listening to you whereas, with magic, all it takes is will for someone to be dangerous.

Ultimately, the situations are not equivalent.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Lambert was born to a society founded upon the dominance of mages over all other life forms. It was due to this that he sought change; it was not "one bad experience", it was a lifetime of them. The betrayal by his best friend was simply the last drop.

 

Let us accept the fact that Lambert makes a whole lot of sense. Groups of people using anything they can to advance their interests at the expense of everyone else is the history of humanity; mages are not any different and of course, they would use magic to accumulate power and influence over non-mages.

That is not to say that Evangeline is one 100% wrong when she says pushing the mages too far can lead to problems but, ultimately, what has she done to protect the lives and independence of non-mages? Will she, by herself, be able to control the hundreds of mages that escaped?

 

and so why single out mages for this?

why are mages punished for doing what everyone else does?

 

Because their better at it?

Because their a minority?

 

why is it ok for mundanes be the oppressors? 

[MisterJB]

and so why single out mages for this?

why are mages punished for doing what everyone else does?

 

Because their better at it?

Because their a minority?

 

why is it ok for mundanes be the oppressors? 

Did I take a moral stance? Normal people, to protect themselves, have dominated mages. Should mages be freed, they will attempt to gather their own influence and power under the very same pretenses; protections, interests of our people.

I side with non-mages because I don't have magic thus I indentify with them; because I always preferred Batman to Superman; and because I feel the Circle is a perfectly reasonable system.

That doesn't mean I think normal people are somehow more moral and the mages less.

[Esteed789]

Let us accept the fact that Lambert makes a whole lot of sense. Groups of people using anything they can to advance their interests at the expense of everyone else is the history of humanity; mages are not any different and of course, they would use magic to accumulate power and influence over non-mages.

That is not to say that Evangeline is one 100% wrong when she says pushing the mages too far can lead to problems but, ultimately, what has she done to protect the lives and independence of non-mages? Will she, by herself, be able to control the hundreds of mages that escaped?

 

No, sorry, I'm not going to accept that he makes a lot of sense.  Just because that's the history of humanity doesn't mean we can't, and shouldn't, aspire to something greater.  Lambert tries to stand on high ideals when he's allowed himself to become just as ugly as the people he claims to be fighting, and that's not a man I'm ever going to listen to.

[Esteed789]

Did I take a moral stance? Normal people, to protect themselves, have dominated mages. Should mages be freed, they will attempt to gather their own influence and power under the very same pretenses; protections, interests of our people.

I side with non-mages because I don't have magic thus I indentify with them; because I always preferred Batman to Superman; and because I feel the Circle is a perfectly reasonable system.

That doesn't mean I think normal people are somehow more moral and the mages less.

 

You might not have taken a moral stance, but the templars certainly do, at every opportunity.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Only mages can manipulate magic, yes. I was just trying to explain to you what the WoT said since you didn't have access and the other person was quoting it obscurely. Specifically it says, "Magic courses through all living things in Thedas. Some even believe it is the power that gives all beings life. Yet despite magic's ubiquity, only a rare few possess the ability to manipulate it." Those few are mages, and the book explains that mages don't gain their abilities till late childhood/puberty and that many very minor mages even live outside of Circles (are allowed to remain so) since their magic is so weak. Lots of interesting things in WoT.

Well as i said it doesn't make non-mages magical and with equal with mages as they are incapable posing any magical threat .

 

 

You might not have taken a moral stance, but the templars certainly do, at every opportunity.

So what like it or not but templars are only thing that protects world from mages so i don't care if they are self-righteous as long they are effective in doing that.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Did I take a moral stance? Normal people, to protect themselves, have dominated mages. Should mages be freed, they will attempt to gather their own influence and power under the very same pretenses; protections, interests of our people.

I side with non-mages because I don't have magic thus I indentify with them; because I always preferred Batman to Superman; and because I feel the Circle is a perfectly reasonable system.

That doesn't mean I think normal people are somehow more moral and the mages less.

 

reasonable? or acceptable? all things being equal if the roles were refused and you were a mage, you would have no qualms with locking mundanes in a tower for their entire lives, to prevent them from oppressing mages?  

[Esteed789]

So what like it or not but templars are only thing that protects world from mages so i don't care if they are self-righteous as long they are effective in doing that.

 

The thing is, if the templars stopped being so self-righteous and tried to work with the mages, they wouldn't need to do what they do.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The thing is, if the templars stopped being so self-righteous and tried to work with the mages, they wouldn't need to do what they do.

Maybe you are right *looks at thrask and thinks* nope you aren't...

Worst thing templar can do is trust mage pretty much that stared whole **** is cus too much trust in mages were put and see how worked with orsino or with blood mages in ferelden.Problem was that mages had too much freedom and power so they have easy access to blood magic.

Price of trusting mage is tremendous so this is why templars never should trust mages.

[Jazzpha]

The thing is, if the templars stopped being so self-righteous and tried to work with the mages, they wouldn't need to do what they do.

 

Except that most of them probably do, we're just shown the ones who don't because of the narrative need for drama and conflict to drive the plot. Which stumbles into metafictional territory, I know, but all the same it's something that needs to be taken into account.

[Esteed789]

Maybe you are right *looks at thrask and thinks* nope you aren't...

Worst thing templar can do is trust mage pretty much that stared whole **** is cus too much trust in mages were put and see how worked with orsino or with blood mages in ferelden.Problem was that mages had too much freedom and power so they have easy access to blood magic.

Price of trusting mage is tremendous so this is why templars never should trust mages.

 

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."  Remind me who was right in that instance?  Oh, yeah.  The ones fighting for the freedom to cooperate and work together.

 

EDIT:  jazzpha, the narrative seems to indicate that most templars don't.  While you could speculate that this isn't true, what the games, comics, books, and other media presents to us is the situation we have to work with for these discussions.

[MisterJB]

No, sorry, I'm not going to accept that he makes a lot of sense.  Just because that's the history of humanity doesn't mean we can't, and shouldn't, aspire to something greater.  Lambert tries to stand on high ideals when he's allowed himself to become just as ugly as the people he claims to be fighting, and that's not a man I'm ever going to listen to.

 

Well, we all have an opinion.

The way I see it, you're wrong; we can't and won't ever be anything else. But it's just a game and there's no need for me to preach about humanity.

 

 

You might not have taken a moral stance, but the templars certainly do, at every opportunity.

True. People like to think of themselves as the hero of some drama.

It would be more truthfull to say "We're pursuing our interests which collide with their interests and that is why we will place ourselves above them."

But that's a tough sell these days.

 

 

The thing is, if the templars stopped being so self-righteous and tried to work with the mages, they wouldn't need to do what they do.

 

And don't you think you're being self-rigtheous here yourself?

It's not as if many mages don't also act in the very same manner. Fiona, the Grand Enchanter, described indendence as "the right thing".

And even if you agree with her, it is a self-rigtheous and moral stance.

 

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."  Remind me who was right in that instance?  Oh, yeah.  The ones fighting for the freedom to cooperate and work together.

 

EDIT:  jazzpha, the narrative seems to indicate that most templars don't.  While you could speculate that this isn't true, what the games, comics, books, and other media presents to us is the situation we have to work with for these discussions.

Star Wars is a work of fiction meant to entertain based on the world's morality. It's not history or realistic behavior of human beings.

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."  Remind me who was right in that instance?  Oh, yeah.  The ones fighting for the freedom to cooperate and work together.

 

EDIT:  jazzpha, the narrative seems to indicate that most templars don't.  While you could speculate that this isn't true, what the games, comics, books, and other media presents to us is the situation we have to work with for these discussions.

Not rly templars in first place had very little control over mages pretty much that orsino (plus many other mages in circle) was corrupted shows that system is horrible in terms of controling mages and mages can't get away with many things.Pretty much it is freedom and power that mages had in circle allowed orsino as well ulrded get away with blood magic.