305 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

You know, You'd think the very first thing a mage who wants autonomy would be an alternative that adressed the people's as well as the mage's concerns.
It seems basic, right?
And yet, there is no indication Fiona or anyone else bothered. The only question ever asked is "Autonomy: yes or no?" without any plan whatsoever of what to do afterwards.

[Xilizhra]

Nor did I say she did.  Lack of attempted genocide does not mean her hands are clean in this.

The gap between how much dirt there is strikes me as far too significant to equate them.

 

 

You know, You'd think the very first thing a mage who wants autonomy would be an alternative that adressed the people's as well as the mage's concerns.
It seems basic, right?
And yet, there is no indication Fiona or anyone else bothered. The only question ever asked is "Autonomy: yes or no?" without any plan whatsoever of what to do afterwards.

Survival comes afterward. After that, victory. What to do when there's peace is step four.

 

But we'll be able to speak with Fiona and learn of this ourselves.

[Lulupab]

You know, You'd think the very first thing a mage who wants autonomy would be an alternative that adressed the people's as well as the mage's concerns.
It seems basic, right?
And yet, there is no indication Fiona or anyone else bothered. The only question ever asked is "Autonomy: yes or no?" without any plan whatsoever of what to do afterwards.

What sort of "plan" you have in mind? She doesn't live in a democratic society, what mages can and cannot do is basically decided by what the Chantry and Templars like and don't like. There is nowhere else she can appeal. This is why the circle system is more of a tyranny than a "system", default and unchallenged authority.

Besides it didn't seem they wanted to change anything other than chantry's influence on circles. With autonomy mages would decide how to govern themselves with little to no change in other aspects such as Templars being around and mages confined within the circles.

[Esteed789]

The gap between how much dirt there is strikes me as far too significant to equate them.

 

 

Survival comes afterward. After that, victory. What to do when there's peace is step four.

 

But we'll be able to speak with Fiona and learn of this ourselves.

 

I'm not equating them.  I am, however, saying that pretending Fiona doesn't have dirt on her hands kind of undermines the pro-mage argument, and I say that being a moderate pro-mager myself.

 

Also, no, that's not really how proposing change works.  There are some very real and valid concerns when it comes to magic and mages, and real, peaceful independence will never be reached without these being addressed.  On that point I actually agree with MisterJB.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not equating them.  I am, however, saying that pretending Fiona doesn't have dirt on her hands kind of undermines the pro-mage argument, and I say that being a moderate pro-mager myself.

 

Also, no, that's not really how proposing change works.  There are some very real and valid concerns when it comes to magic and mages, and real, peaceful independence will never be reached without these being addressed.  On that point I actually agree with MisterJB.

Oh, certainly, they have to be addressed. However, survival is the first priority.

[Esteed789]

Oh, certainly, they have to be addressed. However, survival is the first priority.

 

It is now that both sides forced a war.  Beforehand, they could have, and should have been proposing alternatives that took those things into consideration.

[Xilizhra]

It is now that both sides forced a war.  Beforehand, they could have, and should have been proposing alternatives that took those things into consideration.

The templars would never have been willing to listen; it'd mean giving up their power.

[Esteed789]

The templars would never have been willing to listen; it'd mean giving up their power.

 

Once again we reach a point where the mage position uses similar logic to the templar position.  "We've seen mages turn to blood magic in the past, so of course all mages will."  "We've seen some templars refuse to listen in the past, so of course all templars will."  It doesn't matter whether you're holding a sword or a staff, wearing plate or robes, that logic is just as faulty.

[Xilizhra]

Once again we reach a point where the mage position uses similar logic to the templar position.  "We've seen mages turn to blood magic in the past, so of course all mages will."  "We've seen some templars refuse to listen in the past, so of course all templars will."  It doesn't matter whether you're holding a sword or a staff, wearing plate or robes, that logic is just as faulty.

Some templars would listen, but those tend to leave the Order. See Evangeline. And I was more referring to the institution in that regard; you'd need to launch an actual mutiny to get rid of Lambert, which would be required for any decent negotiation.

[Esteed789]

Some templars would listen, but those tend to leave the Order. See Evangeline. And I was more referring to the institution in that regard; you'd need to launch an actual mutiny to get rid of Lambert, which would be required for any decent negotiation.

 

Evangeline left the order after the rebellion began.  Had the situation been diffused peacefully, I doubt she would have.  She would have been more aware, I think, of the reasonable, level heads in the White Spire, and might have tried harder to be a voice for them in the templar order, but I doubt she'd have left.  Which I view as a good thing, the templars need far more of her and far less of Lambert.

 

All you need is a few to start with.  Get those sympathetic ears into positions where they're involved in training the new recruits and you've got more.  Get them into positions of real power in the order and suddenly you have a much more significant ally.

 

The fact remains that had the mages kept trying, and had the templars tried to be more open, this could have been avoided.  But the extremists in power on both sides refused to allow anything other than my-way-or-the-highway, so now we're left with a bloody war that will very likely, in the end, benefit no one.

[MisterJB]

If Evangeline is supposed to be the ideal Templar, I weep for the future.

Yes, mages should also be protected from normal people and they should be treated decently.

However, allowing hundreds of them to go free without anyone to keep them in check and prevent them from harming others is the pinnacle of betrayal to the ideals of the Templars. If the choise is between Evangeline and Lambert, I'm going with the latter.

[Hellion Rex]

If Evangeline is supposed to be the ideal Templar, I weep for the future.

[Tenebrae]

 

Wow the future is adorable.

[MisterJB]

What sort of "plan" you have in mind? She doesn't live in a democratic society, what mages can and cannot do is basically decided by what the Chantry and Templars like and don't like. There is nowhere else she can appeal. This is why the circle system is more of a tyranny than a "system", default and unchallenged authority.

The very least a Grand Enchanter should have done, both for the sake of her duty and her people, was to have an alternative to the Circle system if she wishes for it to cease to exist.

 

Present a list of ways in which the lives of mages can be improved without compromising on the safety of normals and present it to the Divine, Knight Vigilante, Lord Seeker and Divine. It is only expected of you.

If you'd rather throw down the current system keeping people safe without any suggestion of what should replace it, do not be surprised if people are less than willing to listen to you.

 

Besides it didn't seem they wanted to change anything other than chantry's influence on circles. With autonomy mages would decide how to govern themselves with little to no change in other aspects such as Templars being around and mages confined within the circles.

That seems unlikely for three reasons:

 

1-Fiona never said absolutely anything about what should come after the Circle is broken. She focus only on getting it broken without mentioning the future once.

 

2-How can they wish for no changes, with the Templars around, when they didn't even consult the Templars or the Divine? What exactly will they do when the very first Libertarian tries to leave Andoral's Reach?

Will he be stopped? If so, he'll just say they thought they were voting for freedom and he'll have a point because no one explained exactly what they were voting for beyond "autonomy".

 

3-Wynne says Fiona wants to tear down the Circle.

[MisterJB]

[Esteed789]

If Evangeline is supposed to be the ideal Templar, I weep for the future.

Yes, mages should also be protected from normal people and they should be treated decently.

However, allowing hundreds of them to go free without anyone to keep them in check and prevent them from harming others is the pinnacle of betrayal to the ideals of the Templars. If the choise is between Evangeline and Lambert, I'm going with the latter.

 

Annnnnd we're back to disagreeing again, lol.  Templars have two equally important jobs:  Protect the people, and protect the mages.  Too many of them have come to think of that as an either/or thing, when in fact you can do both.  Unfortunately, by the time Asunder ended, things had fallen apart to the point that not even Andraste herself could save them from within.  Her choice was to try and do both jobs to the best of her ability, or decide to condemn the mages for the sake of the people.  Had things gone differently in Asunder, I think we would have seen her stay with the order and start pushing for reforms to bring them closer to what they're supposed to be, but she really didn't have that choice any longer.

[MisterJB]

To me, neither one of them seems to be afraid of Meredith.

 

 

I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter

 

As we can clearly see, he feared Meredith discovering what he was doing showing that even in Kirkwall; considered to be the strictest Circle in Thedas; abusive Templars suffered punishment if discovered.

[Esteed789]

I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter

 

As we can clearly see, he feared Meredith discovering what he was doing showing that even in Kirkwall; considered to be the strictest Circle in Thedas; abusive Templars suffered punishment if discovered.

 

Huh.  Alright, I didn't know about that.  Never bothered looting bodies during combat, lol.  Still, that to me reads less like he's afraid of Meredith finding out and more like he despises his authority being questioned.

[MisterJB]

Annnnnd we're back to disagreeing again, lol.  Templars have two equally important jobs:  Protect the people, and protect the mages.  Too many of them have come to think of that as an either/or thing, when in fact you can do both.  Unfortunately, by the time Asunder ended, things had fallen apart to the point that not even Andraste herself could save them from within.  Her choice was to try and do both jobs to the best of her ability, or decide to condemn the mages for the sake of the people.  Had things gone differently in Asunder, I think we would have seen her stay with the order and start pushing for reforms to bring them closer to what they're supposed to be, but she really didn't have that choice any longer.

How exactly will one Templar be able to police hundreds of mages?
If she can't, then she completely threw one of her duties to the wind.

[Esteed789]

How exactly will one Templar be able to police hundreds of mages?
If she can't, then she completely threw one of her duties to the wind.

 

And going the other way would have thrown her other duty to the wind.  So when you want to do both jobs but can't, what choice do you make?  You do what feels right, and to her, siding with the mages felt right in that instance given the way Lambert's behavior was fairly overtly inflammatory.

[MisterJB]

And going the other way would have thrown her other duty to the wind.  So when you want to do both jobs but can't, what choice do you make?  You do what feels right, and to her, siding with the mages felt right in that instance given the way Lambert's behavior was fairly overtly inflammatory.

It wouldn't have. The job of the Templars includes imprisioning mages if they are a threat. Keeping those First Enchanters locked so as to avoid a rebellion would have fulfilled her duty.

And even if you really wish to consider that it wouldn't, there would still be thousands of mages she would be doing nothing to. Keeping a dozen or so mages in dungeons is not the equivalent of loosing hundreds if not thousands of mages into the unway population.

 

An example of forgotting one's duty is Meredith's Annulment but she had Red Lyrium warping her mind. What is Evangeline's excuse.

 

Also, it's worth noting that Wynne's body wasn't even cold when her son decided to ****** her dreams of reforming the Circle down the drain.

[Esteed789]

It wouldn't have. The job of the Templars includes imprisioning mages if they are a threat. Keeping those First Enchanters locked so as to avoid a rebellion would have fulfilled her duty.

And even if you really wish to consider that it wouldn't, there would still be thousands of mages she would be doing nothing to. Keeping a dozen or so mages in dungeons is not the equivalent of loosing hundreds if not thousands of mages into the unway population.

 

An example of forgotting one's duty is Meredith's Annulment but she had Red Lyrium warping her mind. What is Evangeline's excuse.

 

Also, it's worth noting that Wynne's body wasn't even cold when her son decided to ****** her dreams of reforming the Circle down the drain.

 

By that point, I don't believe rebellion could have been avoided.  Fiona, Adrian, Lambert, Justinia, and Wynne did enough damage, piled on top of Kirkwall and Anders, that things would have fallen apart regardless.  Even if you locked up every mage in the White Spire, news would have spread to other Circles and eventually one would have broken free, and then another would have, etc.  By that point, rebellion was a certainty, the only variable was how soon it would happen.

 

Evangeline's excuse is she's still trying to do the right thing.  Even if she ends up being wrong, I'd much rather someone that tries to do right and fails than someone that lets fear drive them to extremes any day of the week.

 

Let's not kid around, Wynne contributed to things being irreparable in her own way.  Not as blatantly or as violently as Fiona or Adrian, but she played her part in the dominoes falling.

 

EDIT:  Hell, I'm perfectly comfortable going on record as saying that Shale was the only sane, intelligent person in Asunder.

[raging_monkey]

By that point, I don't believe rebellion could have been avoided.  Fiona, Adrian, Lambert, Justinia, and Wynne did enough damage, piled on top of Kirkwall and Anders, that things would have fallen apart regardless.  Even if you locked up every mage in the White Spire, news would have spread to other Circles and eventually one would have broken free, and then another would have, etc.  By that point, rebellion was a certainty, the only variable was how soon it would happen.
 
Evangeline's excuse is she's still trying to do the right thing.  Even if she ends up being wrong, I'd much rather someone that tries to do right and fails than someone that lets fear drive them to extremes any day of the week.
 
Let's not kid around, Wynne contributed to things being irreparable in her own way.  Not as blatantly or as violently as Fiona or Adrian, but she played her part in the dominoes falling.
 
EDIT:  Hell, I'm perfectly comfortable going on record as saying that Shale was the only sane, intelligent person in Asunder.

pretty much shale was sane. Just made jokes and killed birds

[Esteed789]

pretty much shale was sane. Just made jokes and killed birds

 

Shale for joint First Enchanter/Knight-Commander.  BOOM.  Problem solved. 

[raging_monkey]

Shale for joint First Enchanter/Knight-Commander.  BOOM.  Problem solved. 

maybe lol