138 réponses à ce sujet

[viciouswhisper]

i cut her head off but she survived.....i stabbed morgan but she survived....never saved sten nor did i return his sword but now he is a leader...PLOT HOLES! booooooooom

[Zu Long]

I have a Keep state called "Worst Case Scenario" where every party member EXCEPT the warden who could die is dead, and everything that could go badly did, the same for Hawke's playthrough, where Hawke was as close to a complete monster as it was possible to get.

 

I'm morbidly curious to see what the world looks like in Inquisition after that happening.

 

(One of the reasons I like the Keep is that I didn't actually have to do either playthrough- I am constitutionally incapable of being that evil, even in a video game.)

[DarkKnightHolmes]

This. You kill Leliana in self-defense. There is a huge difference. My cannon is romanced Leliana but had to kill Leliana and Wynne in self defense as they considered some dusty ashes more important than my warden's life and saving the world from the blight.

 

Yeah, it's not like Kolgrim and his whole gang of nutjobs attack you all the way through and kill anyone who dares enter their village.

 

Yup, those guys are totally sane and Leliana and Wynne trying to preserve a magical ash, that can cure a person from near death, are so evil!

[Who Knows]

 

Yeah, it's not like Kolgrim and his whole gang of nutjobs attack you all the way through and kill anyone who dares enter their village.

 

Yup, those guys are totally sane and Leliana and Wynne trying to preserve a magical ash that can cure a person from near death is so evil!

They attack you after you defile the ashes, not before. The ashes were already gone, so it's no longer a matter of preserving them. It's just killing one or both of the only known wardens remaining in Ferelden - basically Ferelden's only hope.

[Spectre Impersonator]

I have a Keep state called "Worst Case Scenario" where every party member EXCEPT the warden who could die is dead, and everything that could go badly did, the same for Hawke's playthrough, where Hawke was as close to a complete monster as it was possible to get.

 

I'm morbidly curious to see what the world looks like in Inquisition after that happening.

 

(One of the reasons I like the Keep is that I didn't actually have to do either playthrough- I am constitutionally incapable of being that evil, even in a video game.)

Tbh, I see the world not looking that different. The choices we make in Bioware games tend to only affect things on an individual scale. Stopping the blight wasn't a choice, the initiation of the Mage/Templar war wasn't a choice... the big things are laid out.

[Snook]

At that point it's just speculative, though.

 

Well...jokes on you in retrospect, though. I hope Wardens who defiled it never find themselves with some mystery illness...

 

"Well...zounds."

[DarkKnightHolmes]

They attack you after you defile the ashes, not before. The ashes were already gone, so it's no longer a matter of preserving them. It's just killing one or both of the only known wardens remaining in Ferelden - basically Ferelden's only hope.

 

Firstly, I know they attack you after you defile it because they can't believe what you just did. Imagine if we found an ash that could instantly cure cancer or get you out of a coma, if you tried defiling that most people would lose it so I don't blame Leliana and Wynne for that.

 

Secondly, you do it for a madman like Kolgrim. A man who's followers kill people for just entering his village and has a village indoctrinated into believing a giant lizard is their God. Also they have altars covered in human blood so that's extra creepy.

 

Lastly, Leliana and Wynne don't know that the Warden are required to end the Blight. Only Riordan and other Wardens do. For Leliana and Wynne, Wardens are just experts on killing Darkspawns and nothing more.

[berrieh]

i cut her head off but she survived.....i stabbed morgan but she survived....never saved sten nor did i return his sword but now he is a leader...PLOT HOLES! booooooooom

 

As to Sten, are we sure he is Arishok in all world-states? The comics are Bioware canon. We have no confirmation that he will surely be in DA:I, do we? 

 

The decapitate animation aside (which was NOT a choice - just a gameplay animation), the choice of leaving Leliana to die still seems to matter (in the Keep and I don't doubt it'll be referenced at some point) and the writers have explicitly said there is a substantial reason for her survival/resurrection that will, at some point, be revealed. Since she is a Bard and Rogues all have a "feign death" skill, I don't find it so unlikely that it is possible she simply played dead, but there are a myriad of other possibilities people have shared, and the writers no doubt have an even better one.

 

Stabbing /= killing. I see no reason why Morrigan wouldn't have healing potions with her had she not acquired any healing spells by the time of Witch Hunt. 

[Who Knows]

Firstly, I know they attack you after you defile it because they can't believe what you just did. Imagine if we found an ash that could instantly cure cancer or get you out of a coma, if you tried defiling that most people would lose it so I don't blame Leliana and Wynne for that.

 

Secondly, you do it for a madman like Kolgrim. A man who's followers kill people for just entering his village and has a village indoctrinated into believing a giant lizard is their God. Also they have altars covered in human blood so that's extra creepy.

 

Lastly, Leliana and Wynne don't know that the Warden are required to end the Blight. Only Riordan and other Wardens do. For Leliana and Wynne, Wardens are just experts on killing Darkspawns and nothing more.

At that point, the power of the ashes is purely speculative. It is not the same thing as destroying something that is known for certain as a cure for cancer.

 

It isn't necessarily for Kolgrim. There are other reasons that don't involve the desire to help Kolgrim personally (I imagine very few if any people had that in mind when siding with him).

 

Having expert darkspawn killers seems pretty useful for fighting an archdemon. If they know their history (they should), every blight that had occurred before was stopped only with the Grey Wardens. That seems a pretty good indication that the wardens are extremely important, if not necessary. Leaving the group after that is justified, trying to murder the only two known Grey Wardens left in Ferelden for that is not.

[Zu Long]

Tbh, I see the world not looking that different. The choices we make in Bioware games tend to only affect things on an individual scale. Stopping the blight wasn't a choice, the initiation of the Mage/Templar war wasn't a choice... the big things are laid out.

 

Perhaps, but you might be surprised. I played through Mass Effect 2 with my Mom once and we used the pre-game comic to determine her Mass Effect 1 decisions. Even with the comic, her world was so different from my near true-paragon run ME1 uploaded universe that it really surprised me. They were all little things but for someone like me, those little things made the world feel more real, and without them it just felt completely different. Mom, of course, noticed nothing.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

At that point, the power of the ashes is purely speculative. It is not the same thing as destroying something that is known for certain as a cure for cancer.

 

It isn't necessarily for Kolgrim. There are other reasons that don't involve the desire to help Kolgrim personally (I imagine very few if any people had that in mind when siding with him).

 

Having expert darkspawn killers seems pretty useful for fighting an archdemon. If they know their history (they should), every blight that had occurred before was stopped only with the Grey Wardens. That seems a pretty good indication that the wardens are extremely important, if not necessary. Leaving the group after that is justified, trying to murder the only two known Grey Wardens left in Ferelden for that is not.

 

So because they're speculative destroying them is fine? We know they help to bring a poisoned man back to fine health, what more reason do you need to keep them around????

 

I can't think of any other reason to defile the ashes except for the Reaver spec (Which is useless to Rogue and Mage Wardens anyway). Maybe some people defile it for sh*ts and giggle. In my City Elf play through, I defiled 'em just to give Genitivi a middle finger.

 

Also most people don't know how good the Wardens are at killing Darkspawns. Wardens haven't been useful for 400 years, so to everybody your character is just another knight or fighter with some knowledge about darkspawns. Also nobody alive currently in thedas knows what a blight even feels like so how the hell do they know what Wardens can do? Especially since your character and Alistair are rookies, so they're definitely no expert Darkspawn killers or have any extra special knowledge to share with everyone.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

 

Yeah, it's not like Kolgrim and his whole gang of nutjobs attack you all the way through and kill anyone who dares enter their village.

 

Yup, those guys are totally sane and Leliana and Wynne trying to preserve a magical ash, that can cure a person from near death, are so evil!

I think you missed my point. The warden is on a mission to stop the blight, thus saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of people and stopping the blight from creating fear and chaos across the realm. The warden (in my case) was also romantically involved with Leliana, they had bonded and were close.

Yet due to taking Kolgrim's deal, at a whim or because it could aid the warden in his cause - doesent really matter - she decides to attempt killing you for defiling the ashes of andraste. 

"Does the word insane mean anything to you?" as Alistair put it, is what I wanted to tell Leliana

 

Leliana abandoned reason, love and the good of the world for fanatical religious zeal in some twisted wish to save the dignity of what was supposedly the ashes of some dead prophet.

[Fishy]

I'm an atheist and I roleplay atheist character (Well more like agnostic). But even I would not taint the ashes of  Andraste. Because I respect history and I respect the faith of others.

 

It would be like tainting the ashes of Jesus just to be a major dick. Who would do something like that ? Even has an Atheist that would infuriate me. That just not something you can do imo. Hell I would just not taint any Ashes. That so lack of respect.

 

It would be like.. Killng a Panda. You just don't do something like that !

[Cypher0020]

Never in the 6 Origin runs. I'm gonna go to the Keep, kill her, put that as my "LOLZ" file 

[berrieh]

I think it's silly to paint Leliana as some kind of fanatic for attacking you (or Wynne for doing the same). I mean, the dragon cult is pretty much undoubtedly evil. That is made clear to you long before you take the deal. Hell, this is made clear to you before you even reach the Temple due to what you can clearly see in the Village. As to "We didn't know the ashes were magical healing ashes yet" logic - Clearly, the ashes are *something special* or a) the dragon cult wouldn't want them and b] there wouldn't be a Guardian they couldn't get past. 

 

Leliana and Wynne are clearly faithful to the Chantry, but they don't react to you denouncing their faith, etc. They react to you destroying a sacred, clearly magical object, for the purpose of furthering an evil Dragon cult. 

[VilhoDog13]

I could imagine a spirit possessing Leliana, similar to Wynne maybe?

 

Perhaps by a good spirit..or a bad spirit, that'd be really interesting to see play out.

[IVI4RCU5]

I didn't kill Leliana... But mostly because she knew what was good for her, and didn't push the issue when I corrupted the ashes.  Best part:  It didn't affect our romance in any way.

Wow, that's a really abusive relationship you've got there. 

 

I think them not following every single solitary decision and letting it effect the setting in a way that doesnt allow the world of thedas to be shaped how the writers want is perfectly understandable and acceptable. I would be annoyed if they tried to follow every decision they made possible, in each game, since you can really do some randomly dumb stuff. I think the fact you can do it in the game is reward enough. The setting comes 1st, imo.

I personally think it'd be better if they restricted you from doing the stuff so dumb that they can't account for it in later games.  Which they seem to have learned their lesson on, to be fair.  Unfortunately this results in the many, many psychopaths who are apparently fans of this series complaining about how they can't randomly murderstab every single one of their companions AND advisers AND the hero of the previous game. 

 

Perhaps, but you might be surprised. I played through Mass Effect 2 with my Mom once and we used the pre-game comic to determine her Mass Effect 1 decisions. Even with the comic, her world was so different from my near true-paragon run ME1 uploaded universe that it really surprised me. They were all little things but for someone like me, those little things made the world feel more real, and without them it just felt completely different. Mom, of course, noticed nothing.

You play video games with your mom?  WHY IS YOUR FAMILY SO MUCH COOLER THAN MINE!?

[Meltemph]

Wow, that's a really abusive relationship you've got there. 

 

I personally think it'd be better if they restricted you from doing the stuff so dumb that they can't account for it in later games.  Which they seem to have learned their lesson on, to be fair.  Unfortunately this results in the many, many psychopaths who are apparently fans of this series complaining about how they can't randomly murderstab every single one of their companions AND advisers AND the hero of the previous game. 

 

You play video games with your mom?  WHY IS YOUR FAMILY SO MUCH COOLER THAN MINE!?

Meh, if Bioware wants to dump resources given people "choices" that hurt the setting, that wont be respected(thank god) more power to them. I mean, I would prefer they dont divert resources to choices that create a setting almost nobody wants, there is some...appreciation that you CAN make a horrible decision, even though you dont ever want to(kinda like giving people race choices, even though almost everyone plays elves and humans in MMO's). So, ya I get why they do it, I just want them to be straight up and say, "ya, some of your guys insane gameplay's through the story wont be respected", so people stop saying "NOT MY WARDEN!!!!!!!".

[TheJiveDJ]

You keep using that word. I don't think it mean's what you think it mean's.

Also, no. I consider her redemption arc too precious.

 

Oh...well...if you say so lol...  ...

 

From Wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity )

 

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.^"

 

"Retcons often add information that contradicts previous information. This frequently takes the form of a character who was shown to have died, but is later revealed to have somehow survived."

We can get into a debate regarding what is considered an established fact in a work of fiction, but this wouldn't be constructive as it's open to interpretation. What we know for sure is that there was nothing in Origins implying that Leliana's "death" would be temporary.

BW established an event in Origins, made it unambiguous, and suddenly changed this established event in DAII with no explanation; sounds pretty retconny to me. The closest we've ever come to an explanation is when Leliana comments that "the maker had other plans for [her]" in Exiled Prince. So either they retconned her death, or they are using a cheap resurrection trope, which may also be considered a retcon depending on how it is implemented in DAI.

 

Explaining away a conflicting event by having it technically make sense retroactively doesn't preclude said event from being a retcon unless the event has been subtly implied throughout the story (i.e. like a good twist ending). They will either deny that her death ever happened, or attempt to explain away her resurrection somehow (e.g. a wizard did it, she wasn't really dead, she survived on grubs for two days before being rescued). These are not things that should be explained away after the fact; it is indicative of poor storytelling, hence the saying, "don't tell them, show them".

 

Questions? 

[Fredward]

People really need to let the head chop thing go, it was a stock combat animation. I mean feel free to ****** about the fact that Bioware shouldn't give the APPEARANCE of being able to kill people (it happened potentially three times in DAO with Flemeth, Morrigan and Leliana maybe more but those seem the most salient. Though Flemeth was understandable, that had suitable buildup and lore) quite so often when you really can't but the obsessing over the severed head thing seems unnecessary since it amounts to basically an oversight. If even that.

[Meltemph]

 

Explaining away a conflicting event by having it technically make sense retroactively doesn't preclude said event from being a retcon unless the event has been subtly implied throughout the story (i.e. like a good twist ending). They will either deny that her death ever happened, or attempt to explain away her resurrection somehow (e.g. a wizard did it, she wasn't really dead, her head magically reattached itself). These are not things that should be explained away after the fact; it is indicative of poor storytelling, hence the saying, "don't tell them, show them".

 

Questions? 

I'd say it was a bone they were throwing people in the game, so they could play with the game setting anyway that the player wanted... However, there is nothing that should force them into following all possible choices in their games, specially when they limit the setting of Dragon Age. Not all choices are nor should be treated equal if you want a coherent setting. Quite frankly, imo, they shouldnt try and explain it and just straight up say, "ya, some of the choices were never intended to be followed through" and leave it at that, instead of trying to please every possible occurrence that some people have in mind as carrying over from one game to the next.

 

If anything ,imo, they need to create a lot less throw-a-way characters that you can just kill or completely excommunicate from the story if they want it to be part of the setting, since there is this idea with some people that every choice they make in the video game is sacred. At least, imo.

[Fardreamer]

I refused to recruit Leliana on my Evil Warden playthrough.  On that playthough I only recruited Morrigan, Dog, Zevran, Shale, and Oghren (because he's forced).  I executed Alistair after the Landsmeet.  Oddly enough, it was one of the more satisfying playthroughs.

 

I left Sten in his cage... don't need someone blabbing about honor all the time.  Leliana stayed in the bar in Lothering... don't need her going on about a Maker I don't believe in.  Wynne survived the events at the Circle of Magi, but wasn't recruited because her idealism would have gotten in my way.

 

Camp was more cozy with just my small circle of cohorts.

[hellbiter88]

So since I never defiled the Sacred Ashes I never had the circumstance of killing Leliana. Can I ask.... did the Warden actually chop her head off? Cuz if so I am def going to go replay that scene.

[sylvanaerie]

So since I never defiled the Sacred Ashes I never had the circumstance of killing Leliana. Can I ask.... did the Warden actually chop her head off? Cuz if so I am def going to go replay that scene.

 

Oh, people have been whining about this since she shows up in DA2.  It's a game mechanic you can do a finishing blow and decapitate someone.  There is no actual "Death scene".  Because they did it in the combat, they expect her to be dead in canon.

Hell, I've decapitated Howe on many an occasion but he still rises up to say "Maker spit on you...I deserved more..."

[hellbiter88]

Oh, people have been whining about this since she shows up in DA2.  It's a game mechanic you can do a finishing blow and decapitate someone.  There is no actual "Death scene".  Because they did it in the combat, they expect her to be dead in canon.

Hell, I've decapitated Howe on many an occasion but he still rises up to say "Maker spit on you...I deserved more..."

 

oooh ok. and that's hilarious... so what the headless man just carries on conversation with you? lol