138 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

You play video games with your mom?  WHY IS YOUR FAMILY SO MUCH COOLER THAN MINE!?

 

ME2 and ME3 were special exceptions. Mom was always a huge Trekkie and a strident feminist. I had told her about my experiences playing Femshep (the best space marine ever, IMO) and even shown her some gameplay. I asked her if she'd like to go through the story, but she didn't want to have to play the shooting parts. So instead, I played the game, and she made all the decisions.

 

One hilarious thing I learned? My Mom is WAY more Renegade than I am... >_>;

[sylvanaerie]

ME2 and ME3 were special exceptions. Mom was always a huge Trekkie and a strident feminist. I had told her about my experiences playing Femshep (the best space marine ever, IMO) and even shown her some gameplay. I asked her if she'd like to go through the story, but she didn't want to have to play the shooting parts. So instead, I played the game, and she made all the decisions.

 

One hilarious thing I learned? My Mom is WAY more Renegade than I am... >_>;

 

It's those quiet ones you have to watch out for  .  I love to play video games but my daughter is far better at it than I am.  

 

Oh, I'm a 'retired soccer mom'.

[Orberon]

Kill Leliana?! Why?!   Of all the horrible, evil, villainous acts! Anyone who killed her is an awful, awful person! My Leliana! I shall never do something so terrible to you! The only party member I ever killed was Anders. How dare he defile Justice?!

 I never actually resulted in killing any of my companions in DA: O or DA2, I didnt even have the heart to kill Anders with my fem hawk as the two were love interests... 

 

hmm, looks like thats going to have to change with my Inquesitor...

[Lady Mutare]

In one playthough I did poison the Urn and had to kill Leliana I thought. I also thought Wynne left the group because of that poisoning, But i am old and its been many years since my DAO playthroughs, so I may not be rememebring that correctly.

[Alodar]

For most play throughs my Wardens  never brought Lelianna along because she was crazy and thought the Maker spoke to her.

 

The Wardens who brought her along only killed her when she attacked them.

 

 

 

My Wardens always killed Zevran because he was an assassin who tried to kill me -- my characters as a rule killed everyone who tried to kill them.

 

I also left Sten, the child murderer, in his cage because I didn't want him in my camp.

 

Alistair or Loghain usually ended up dead as well.

 

 

 

I enjoyed being able to make those choices in DAO, but in a world that includes healing magic and spirit posession, death is not necessarily a permanent condition.

 

 

If you cut Lelianna's head off it is quite possible that she re-loaded her last save.

[Muspade]

Oh...well...if you say so lol...  ...

 

From Wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity )

 

Questions? 

Only one. Why are you using the word "retcon" the wrong way after attempting to explain it to me?

 

You can call it "Bad storytelling" all you want, if you feel like it but that her resurrection Is uncalled for and a "retcon" ..well, there are a lot of factors that could play into that.

http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/Retcon
"Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'"

[Who Knows]

So because they're speculative destroying them is fine? We know they help to bring a poisoned man back to fine health, what more reason do you need to keep them around????

 

I can't think of any other reason to defile the ashes except for the Reaver spec (Which is useless to Rogue and Mage Wardens anyway). Maybe some people defile it for sh*ts and giggle. In my City Elf play through, I defiled 'em just to give Genitivi a middle finger.

 

Also most people don't know how good the Wardens are at killing Darkspawns. Wardens haven't been useful for 400 years, so to everybody your character is just another knight or fighter with some knowledge about darkspawns. Also nobody alive currently in thedas knows what a blight even feels like so how the hell do they know what Wardens can do? Especially since your character and Alistair are rookies, so they're definitely no expert Darkspawn killers or have any extra special knowledge to share with everyone.

I actually don't really think that destroying the ashes is necessarily the wisest choice. I can see both sides.

Roleplaying wise though, there is more than just getting the reaver spec, like having the favor of a cult allied with a powerful dragon. If nothing else, the deal means you can travel through the area without having to fight them (useful for not getting killed).

 

But my original point posting in this thread is that the Warden defending themselves against Leliana and Wynne trying to murder them (even after the ashes have been destroyed) is hardly evil. I would also say that this attempt of murder is not justified. The ashes were already destroyed and could no longer be preserved, their powers were rumor and hearsay at best at the time, and pouring dragon blood on the ashes hurts no one directly. It is essentially killing over religious beliefs and rumor. I don't think it's justified even if Wynne and Leliana were completely ignorant of the importance of the wardens (and they definitely are not). Besides Wynne when the warden sides with the templars, this is also the only point in which Wynne and Leliana attack you. It's hard to argue that their betrayal was completely a matter of morality when you can do things like blood sacrificing elven slaves with only disapproval points gained.

 

I really don't think it's fair to compare Leliana and Wynne to most people in Thedas. They are clearly more educated - Wynne especially has a particular knowledge of warden history.

Alistair and presumably the warden do have extra special knowledge to share - they can sense darkspawn and thus can alert others to their presence. They are immune to the blight (pretty useful if you're fighting darkspawn). They had a special link to the archdemon (the dreams of which confirm that realness of the blight).

 

In attacking the warden(s), Wynne and/or Leliana also have to fight the rest of the party (the warden + one/two of alistair, morrigan, sten, oghren, shale, zevran, or dog), further lessening their chances of success against the blight. Leliana and Wynne don't wait until the wardens have got all of those armies to fight the darkspawn - they attack even if the sacred ashes quest is the very first thing you do after the mage circle or lothering quests, so they could potentially be killing everyone else in the entire party over the ashes. Then it's just Wynne/Leliana by themselves.

[Revan Reborn]

Unless it's somehow tied to a major story event, BioWare shouldn't allow the player to kill companions. It's nice having the choice and freedom to do so, but the negative consequences of such a decision vastly outweigh the positives. Having the choice to kill Leliana during the Ashes of Andraste quest really didn't make sense and certainly it wasn't a major decision in regards to the Fifth Blight. Killing Anders, on the other hand, made sense and was practical as it was tied to the major point of the story. BioWare recognized the fatal error and corrected it. This only made sense, especially since they decided Leliana would play a larger role in the series going forward.

[Travie]

Decision was retconned by BW. She survives no matter what.

 

 

You keep using that word. I don't think it mean's what you think it mean's.

Also, no. I consider her redemption arc too precious.

 

He knows exactly what it means and used it correctly. 

[topekaguy]

• "You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool."

[Reidbynature]

She's un-dead, Jim.

[topekaguy]

Fascinating...

[TimXP]

Never killed Leliana (or any of the companions, actually) except once to unlock the Reaver spec, then reload. I do have her dead in one world state on the Keep just to see how they handle it in Inquisition.

 

That said, I can understand why some players who did kill her are annoyed that she's not only back but so prominent in later games. On the other hand, 1) it's a fantasy game, characters come back to life all the time, it's part of the genre; and 2) there's a certain subset of gamers who seem like they'd never be satisfied with the evil options in an RPG unless they were able to have their Warden team up with the Darkspawn, personally burn down all of Thedas, and then feed themselves to the Archdemon, and have later games in the series reflect that status quo.

[Muspade]

He knows exactly what it means and used it correctly.

Prove it.

[TheJiveDJ]

I'd say it was a bone they were throwing people in the game, so they could play with the game setting anyway that the player wanted... However, there is nothing that should force them into following all possible choices in their games, specially when they limit the setting of Dragon Age. Not all choices are nor should be treated equal if you want a coherent setting. Quite frankly, imo, they shouldnt try and explain it and just straight up say, "ya, some of the choices were never intended to be followed through" and leave it at that, instead of trying to please every possible occurrence that some people have in mind as carrying over from one game to the next.

 

If anything ,imo, they need to create a lot less throw-a-way characters that you can just kill or completely excommunicate from the story if they want it to be part of the setting, since there is this idea with some people that every choice they make in the video game is sacred. At least, imo.

Yeah I hear you. It's BW's story ultimately, and they can decide how events unfold. I just think that if they never wanted Leliana dead, it shouldn't have been a choice in the first place. If you have regrets after the fact, then suck it up and move on; don't sacrifice good storytelling because you really liked a character.

[TheJiveDJ]

Only one. Why are you using the word "retcon" the wrong way after attempting to explain it to me?

 

You can call it "Bad storytelling" all you want, if you feel like it but that her resurrection Is uncalled for and a "retcon" ..well, there are a lot of factors that could play into that.

http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/Retcon
"Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'"

Ok...and that is different from how BW has handled Leliana's death....how, exactly?

[Meltemph]

Yeah I hear you. It's BW's story ultimately, and they can decide how events unfold. I just think that if they never wanted Leliana dead, it shouldn't have been a choice in the first place. If you have regrets after the fact, then suck it up and move on; don't sacrifice good storytelling because you really liked a character.

I dont think not respecting all choices in a separate game is bad storytelling, honestly. I personally dont think it is a problem to allow players to kill companions and what not in that game, while at the same time not allowing you to create a "canon setting" that transfers from 1 game to the next. This idea that everything allowed in a game, must be respected and followed through to the setting hurts potential gameplay freedoms from game to game, simply because people want their more setting damaging choices to transfer. I think your mindset, personally, would reduce choices in the game(which I'm fine with, but I know some people are not). 

[Travie]

Prove it.

 

He already did. If you disagree on whether it's retconning, that's fine, but don't try and insult his intelligence by telling him he doesn't even understand the words he is writing. It's a pretty immature way to try and argue. 

[viciouswhisper]

As to Sten, are we sure he is Arishok in all world-states? The comics are Bioware canon. We have no confirmation that he will surely be in DA:I, do we? 

 

The decapitate animation aside (which was NOT a choice - just a gameplay animation), the choice of leaving Leliana to die still seems to matter (in the Keep and I don't doubt it'll be referenced at some point) and the writers have explicitly said there is a substantial reason for her survival/resurrection that will, at some point, be revealed. Since she is a Bard and Rogues all have a "feign death" skill, I don't find it so unlikely that it is possible she simply played dead, but there are a myriad of other possibilities people have shared, and the writers no doubt have an even better one.

 

Stabbing /= killing. I see no reason why Morrigan wouldn't have healing potions with her had she not acquired any healing spells by the time of Witch Hunt. 

yeah yeah yeah theres always a reason isnt there? i dont like it i think its stupid that as someone who kills on a daily basis the warden wouldnt be able to kill two people? noooope i dont care how they survived the point is i killed them dont tell me my canon is mine to make then change it for me. thats all im saying

[Meltemph]

yeah yeah yeah theres always a reason isnt there? i dont like it i think its stupid that as someone who kills on a daily basis the warden wouldnt be able to kill two people? noooope i dont care how they survived the point is i killed them dont tell me my canon is mine to make then change it for me. thats all im saying

It is still your "canon", however, you being able to see the ramifications of every possible decision in the game doesnt need to be adhered too. I'd rather have a cohesive setting to play in. Just because you assumed every decision you made in the game needed to be followed through from every sequel doesn't make it so.

[MetalGear312]

"You monster frisbee!"

[viciouswhisper]

It is still your "canon", however, you being able to see the ramifications of every possible decision in the game doesnt need to be adhered too. I'd rather have a cohesive setting to play in. Just because you assumed every decision you made in the game needed to be followed through from every sequel doesn't make it so.

look dragon age as a whole i love it its my most played game but at  least admit that its makes no sense that either one survived thats all im saying i mean every other person you killed up to that point stayed dead so why are they any different?

[Swagger7]

My evil Warden stabbed her, but I'm not surprised she's still alive since he was kind of a ****up.

[Muspade]

Ok...and that is different from how BW has handled Leliana's death....how, exactly?

Acknowledging the death happening despite her not being dead is the opposite of "retcon" as there was no handwaving the entire matter away.

How you view the resurrection trope with "no foreshadowimg" In a Holy lyrium mountain with loads of spirits and a pot of sacred ashes is out of my hands, really. Would've agreed if we were talking about just any other companion + location.

[Muspade]

He already did. If you disagree on whether it's retconning, that's fine, but don't try and insult his intelligence by telling him he doesn't even understand the words he is writing. It's a pretty immature way to try and argue.

I beg to differ. Calling it an ass pull would've been more appropriate.