78 réponses à ce sujet

[Malfrun]

I really want my canon warden to be a dwarf noble but I also wanted the canon to be siding with Bhelen can anyone fathom a good reason for doing so. everyone and everything just shouts at you:

 

HARROWMONT!

 

HARROWMONT!

 

HARROWMONT!

 

I may just give up.

[DracoAngel]

As a dwarf noble? Hmm. I guess it depends on whether or not you feel your DN can look over the fact that he betrayed you and setup your brother's murder and may have possibly had a hand in your father's death. If you think that would be your DN's type of personality and can see that he is better for Orzammar as a whole, and feel that no matter what Bhelen had done the throne belongs to an Aeuducan.

 

But like I said, it depends on the type of person your DN is.

 

I am really hoping all this made sense. I'm slightly tired and have a headache.

[Killdren88]

You can side with Harrowmont the entire way and just head canon the Paragon chose Bhelen. Out of your hands then.

[mousestalker]

It depends upon your warden's sense of family loyalty.

In other words, would your warden prefer to have an outsider become king because of spite or would your warden rather the monarchy remain with the Aeducan family?

What helped me was watching the Godfather in between gaming sessions. If you view dwarves as mafia, then it will help you remain objective and treat what happened as 'strictly business'.

[Han Shot First]

You can side with Harrowmont the entire way and just head canon the Paragon chose Bhelen. Out of your hands then.

 

Wouldn't Bhelen have that brother murdered however? I could see him allowing a brother to live who crowned him, but not one who sided with his arch-rival.

 

A Dwarf Noble siding with Bhelen is hard to roleplay IMO. I think the scenario is sort of set up for you to side with Harrowmont. It's sort of like the human noble and the Loghain vs. Alistair decision. How do you roleplay a human noble who sides with the man who was an accomplice to his family's murder?

 

Actually come to think of it each origin has scenarios that would be difficult to roleplay.

 

A Dalish siding with the werewolves.

 

A mage siding with the Templars.

 

A City Elf siding with the werewolves / choosing Loghain over Alistair.

 

A Dwarf casteless siding with Harrowmont.

[Milan92]

It's sort of like the human noble and the Loghain vs. Alistair decision. How do you roleplay a human noble who sides with the man who was an accomplice to his family's murder?

 

Was it not confirmed by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with that? >_>

[Han Shot First]

Was it not confirmed by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with that? >_>

 

Sort of. But a lot of Gaider's twitter canon doesn't make sense compared to what's actually in the game.

 

Twitter canon says that Arl Howe was acting alone on a lot of what he did. Like for instance, planning the murder of the Couslands all by his lonesome. Here is where that completely falls apart: In order for Howe to get away with betraying and murdering the Couslands, he needs someone in power to sanction his actions. Without that protection something like this would be bound to happen to him. He also needs someone in power to confirm him as Teyrn of Highever. Without those two things, his treason is pointless and likely suicidal. Howe's actions don't make sense with Cailan as king, as Cailan would be all but guaranteed to go Ned Stark on Howe. So that means Howe had to know of Cailan's murder in advance and had to know that he could expect Loghain to both protect and reward him for it. In short, the murder of the Couslands doesn't make much sense unless Loghain was part of the plot.

 

On that note the Twitter canon that says Loghain didn't plan to betray and murder Cailan until at some point during Ostagar also does not make sense. Howe needs Cailan dead for his plan to have any chance of succeeding. Considering that Howe's actions are completely senseless (and suicidal) unless the plot to murder Cailan was both active before Ostagar and revealed to Howe, Cailan's murder had to have been carefully planned in advance.

 

But even if we take that Twitter canon at face value and don't question it, Loghain still rewards and protects Howe after the fact. That makes him an accomplice of sorts in the crime, even he had no part in carrying it out. 

[Milan92]

 

Sort of. But a lot of Gaider's twitter canon doesn't make sense compared to what's actually in the game.

 

Twitter canon says that Arl Howe was acting alone on a lot of what he did. Like for instance, planning the murder of the Couslands all by his lonesome. Here is where that completely falls apart: In order for Howe to get away with betraying and murdering the Couslands, he needs someone in power to sanction his actions. Without that protection something like this would be bound to happen to him. He also needs someone in power to confirm him as Teyrn of Highever. Without those two things, his treason is pointless and likely suicidal. Howe's actions don't make sense with Cailan as king, as Cailan would be all but guaranteed to go Ned Stark on Howe. So that means Howe had to know of Cailan's murder in advance and had to know that he could expect Loghain to both protect and reward him for it. In short, the murder of the Couslands doesn't make much sense unless Loghain was part of the plot.

 

But even if we take that Twitter canon at face value and don't question it, Loghain still rewards and protects Howe after the fact. That makes him an accomplice of sorts in the crime, even he had no part in carrying it out. 

 

Those are good points.

[Malfrun]

 

A City Elf siding with the werewolves / choosing Loghain over Alistair.

 

I would suggest swapping that for siding with the slavers as I can kind understand the others.

 

But anyway I suppose I may be able to do it and I Like Mousestalker's point of treating it as business.

[Han Shot First]

Those are good points.

 

The Witcher is a lot better at that sort of stuff honestly.

 

Political plots and scheming aren't DA's strongpoints, particularly with the tendency to tinker with the story after the fact via blogs and Twitter. 

[Milan92]

The Witcher is a lot better at that sort of stuff honestly.

 

Political plots and scheming aren't DA's strongpoints, particularly with the tendency to tinker with the story after the fact via blogs and Twitter. 

 

I agree.

[Sifr]

My Dwarf Noble sided with Bhelen because while they didn't trust their brother in the slightest and they did regret betraying Harrowmont (and tried to futility get Bhelen to spare him), they saw that Bhelen was the better man for the job because he wanted to increase contact with the surface, give the casteless more rights and try to bring Orzammar into the modern world, basically everything my Dwarven Noble would have done if they'd become King/Queen themselves.

 

While a good and honourable man, Harrowmont's traditionalist policies were going to keep Orzammar stagnant and remote from the world, which after having been on the surface and gained some perspective, my Dwarf noble saw was going to be the death of Orzammar. Harrowmont's refusal to allow the casteless to fight the Darkspawn was foolhardy as their people needed all the manpower they could muster, because Dwarven pride wasn't going to hold back the Darkspawn forever.

 

In the end, my Dwarf Noble saw that Bhelen had the same attitude as both themselves and Paragon Aeducan. When stupid people (aka the Assembly) cannot agree on a solution even to save their sorry necks, sometimes it's better to cut straight through the political bronto-sh*t and take matters into your own hands, as it's the only way to get things done.

[Han Shot First]

I suppose one way you could roleplay a Dwarf Noble who sides with Bhelen, is to have him or her be someone who views their bloodline and the glory of your royal house as ultimately all that matters. Bhelen might be a backstabber who murdered your father, brother, and tried to murder you...but he is still an Aeducan, unlike Harrowmont. That Warden could absolutely loathe Bhelen for what he has done and yet still make him king. Siding with Harrowmont means the end to the Aeducan dynasty, which could be more unbearable to that Warden than crowning a brother you potentially despise. You also arguably have greater status as both Paragon and the brother to the king, than as solely a Paragon. 

 

Basically dwarf noble meets Tywin Lannister.

[Bardox9]

My Dwarven Noble sided with Bhelen. The way I rationalized it was that, for Dwarves, nothing is more important than family and the appearance of honor. Harrowmont is too weak to stand against the Assembly and it's clear Bhelen knows how to "play the game" better than anyone else considering how easily he was able to blindside everyone. From the perspective of your DN, keeping an Aeducan on the throne is more important than taking revenge on someone for doing something that isn't all that shocking considering the cut throat nature of Dwarven politics.

 

My DN was actually impressed by Bhelen's... effectiveness.

[Han Shot First]

 

My DN was actually impressed by Bhelen's... effectiveness.

 

Bhelen might be a complete bastard, but it's hard to deny that he is a chessmaster when it comes to scheming and backstabbing. I'd rank him far above Loghain and Howe in that department.

[Milan92]

Bhelen might be a complete bastard, but it's hard to deny that he is a chessmaster when it comes to scheming and backstabbing. I'd rank him far above Loghain and Howe in that department.

 

He would totally fit in with GoT. I could even see him survive a few books.

[Han Shot First]

He would totally fit in with GoT. I could even see him survive a few books.

 

I think the most impressive thing about Bhelen to me is that he managed to portray himself for years as completely harmless and the least noteworthy of the Aeducan children as a mask for his plans. He basically pulled a Kaiser Soze.

[Bardox9]

GoT? Bah! Amateurs...

[Cypher0020]

I never choose Harrowmont, I mean..... Orrzamar suffers, no matter which way is up, but Behlen, although a tratorious jerk, knows 'the game' well enough, plus is progressive 

[Dabrikishaw]

You have the option of roleplaying a DN that admires Bhelen for his political savy.

[MouseHopper]

Thank you for this thread.  Naturally I came to this way of thinking very late.  I've played the dwarf noble several times and always sided with Harrowmont.  But at the end of the game, when the final scenes were running through I was never quite satisfied with how the Dwarves had ended up.  It sounded as if Harrowmont had been too weak as a ruler.  I kept wondering if I should have chosen Bhelan.  When I was in the Tapestry at the Keep, one of my choices was to change that choice to Bhelan, and that's what I did.  Not sure if I will keep that one or not.  If I have time for another complete playthrough of DAO before Inquisition I may just try the DN thing with Bhelan as a choice though.  Several of you have made some very interesting points.  Thanks again. 

[Monica21]

 

Sort of. But a lot of Gaider's twitter canon doesn't make sense compared to what's actually in the game.

 

Twitter canon says that Arl Howe was acting alone on a lot of what he did. Like for instance, planning the murder of the Couslands all by his lonesome. Here is where that completely falls apart: In order for Howe to get away with betraying and murdering the Couslands, he needs someone in power to sanction his actions. Without that protection something like this would be bound to happen to him. He also needs someone in power to confirm him as Teyrn of Highever. Without those two things, his treason is pointless and likely suicidal. Howe's actions don't make sense with Cailan as king, as Cailan would be all but guaranteed to go Ned Stark on Howe. So that means Howe had to know of Cailan's murder in advance and had to know that he could expect Loghain to both protect and reward him for it. In short, the murder of the Couslands doesn't make much sense unless Loghain was part of the plot.

 

On that note the Twitter canon that says Loghain didn't plan to betray and murder Cailan until at some point during Ostagar also does not make sense. Howe needs Cailan dead for his plan to have any chance of succeeding. Considering that Howe's actions are completely senseless (and suicidal) unless the plot to murder Cailan was both active before Ostagar and revealed to Howe, Cailan's murder had to have been carefully planned in advance.

 

But even if we take that Twitter canon at face value and don't question it, Loghain still rewards and protects Howe after the fact. That makes him an accomplice of sorts in the crime, even he had no part in carrying it out. 

 

I can already taste the regret in replying to this.

Gaider hasn't just said so on Twitter. It was confirmed in several threads on the old forums not long after Origins release. Howe didn't need anyone to sanction his actions. It's clear in the Human Noble Origin that there is some generational bad blood between the Howes and the Couslands. As a HN, if you talk to Howe in the dungeon he confirms that he really just hated your father. Howe's plan is to leave no survivors, and had not counted on your HN to escape, and that's the only thing that thwarts his plan. Had you not escaped, then it's as Duncan said. He would have told Cailan anything he wished and Cailan would have no reason not to believe Howe.

Second, after Ostagar, Howe commands, even without Highever, the largest contingent of troops, what with Redcliffe being overrun by undead, knights scattered, and Eamon poisoned. Loghain needs those troops in the civil war. The easiest way to ensure he gets them is to ignore what Howe did and then give him Highever and  Denerim, ensuring that one of his supporters is also the commander of one of the largest military forces in Ferelden. It's simply what's practical at that point.

And on that note, I'm also going with the theory (that one could also call fact since it was confirmed by Gaider and Mary Kirby) that Loghain never betrayed nor murdered Cailan. He retreated and Cailan died, because sometimes that happens in war. It's extremely difficult to "carefully plan" for an ogre to kill your king, or for any death to occur in a large battle.

And yes, at face value Loghain is, of course, an accomplice after the fact. Whatever one chooses to believe, Loghain's actions are questionable and morally grey, but not that difficult to defend.

[Mykel54]

If you side with Bhelen as a DN, this is your ending:

[luism]

I did it with the justification that the throne must stay with house aeducan

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

To some degree the only justifiable reason to side with Bhelen is the metagame knowledge that he gets on the whole better results for Orzammar as a whole than Harrowmont does.* However, since the DN knows them better than the player would, you can easily imagine that they would be able to extrapolate the information you have to metagame for from their own knowledge.

 

* Unless you're a DC, but that's not relevant to the current proposition and is at any rate selfishly privileging your family over the rest of Orzammar in your decision.