78 réponses à ce sujet

[Kenshen]

My DN is the only one that supports Harrowmont.  I like Bhelen otherwise and will continue to support him in all other origins, Long Live King Bhelen!

[BartDude52]

The only reason that I've ever sided with Bhelen was to get the achievement for doing so. On every other occasion I've always sided with Harrowmont. I honestly don't care if Bhelen is supposed to be the 'better' choice or not; he's devious, sleazy, underhanded, and just rubs me up the wrong way and gives me bad vibes (especially after playing the Dwarf Noble origin for the first time). Maybe Harrowmont is a traditionalist and the 'worse' option, but at least he's a good and honourable man, unlike Bhelen (case in point, if you decide to make Bhelen king and Harrowmont is ordered to be executed, he honourably accepts his fate, unlike Bhelen who has a hissy fit if you choose Harrowmont as king over him). I'm probably letting my personal feelings get in the way of my better judgement here, but to be honest I can't even begin to contemplate letting an unscrupulous scumbag like Bhelen become king, so that's why I always choose Harrowmont when given the option.  

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 To keep your family noble house in power (the DN Warden can say this himself/herself, which Bhelen will praise).

[mousestalker]

Of course being praised by Bhelen is like winning the 'venomous snake of the year' award.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Of course being praised by Bhelen is like winning the 'venomous snake of the year' award.

I don't know about you, but I like venomous snakes. I used the Invisible Spell feat on a spell to summon a fiendish one once.

 

On-topic: My first DN went to Bhelen, did his first quest, snuck over to Harrowmont to do the quest to betray Bhelen (which strengthens my rep at Bhelen's expense), and then put Bhelen on the throne after all. "Venomous snake of the year" strikes me as kinda faint praise.

[Mykel54]

 To keep your family noble house in power (the DN Warden can say this himself/herself, which Bhelen will praise).

 

You mean the same family that exiled the "Pride of Aeducan" (note: you) without giving a chance at defending yourself? No assembly defense, no proving to show innocence, nothing. Endrin sacrifices his favourite son just because he did not want the murder investigated. Then it is Harrowmont who feeds you the information about the wardens you need to survive.

 

If i were the dwarf noble, i would be a lot more grateful to Harrowmont than to Endrin. In fact, if you have a kid with Mardy, Harrowmont will adopt it ... therefore if Harrowmont is king, your kid would have very good chances of being the heir. How is that for sticking it to Bhelen? "I will never be king, but my son will".

 

Bhelen also screws you out of your birthright by either using you like a tool (if you are stupid enough to believe him and then kill him yourself) or framing you for Trian´s murder. If you make him king, remember that he will be sitting on his cozy throne and enjoying his noble hunters, while you are wadding through mud and blood in the deep roads, fighting darkspawn until you become a ghoul yourself. So much for royal blood.

 

The only dwarf noble i could see supporting Bhelen, is one that fulfills all these requisites:

- killed Trian yourself (so you are guilty anyway)

- loyalty to house > loyalty to oneself (ex. Dace´s quest)

- makes the ultimate sacrifice (cannot bear to be a mere warden while Bhelen is king, plus want a glorious death)

 

[Aimi]

Gaider hasn't just said so on Twitter. It was confirmed in several threads on the old forums not long after Origins release. Howe didn't need anyone to sanction his actions. It's clear in the Human Noble Origin that there is some generational bad blood between the Howes and the Couslands. As a HN, if you talk to Howe in the dungeon he confirms that he really just hated your father. Howe's plan is to leave no survivors, and had not counted on your HN to escape, and that's the only thing that thwarts his plan. Had you not escaped, then it's as Duncan said. He would have told Cailan anything he wished and Cailan would have no reason not to believe Howe.

[...]

And on that note, I'm also going with the theory (that one could also call fact since it was confirmed by Gaider and Mary Kirby) that Loghain never betrayed nor murdered Cailan. He retreated and Cailan died, because sometimes that happens in war. It's extremely difficult to "carefully plan" for an ogre to kill your king, or for any death to occur in a large battle.

So it's extremely difficult to plan for any single death to occur in a large battle, but perfectly normal to expect to successfully wipe out an entire family and their personal guard in one fell swoop with no survivors? Never mind Fergus, who had already left with the Highever troops.

At this point, I'm less interested in authorial intent or in "what actually happened" (chimaeras, frankly) than I am in the confused mess that the game and subsequent forum/Twitter/Tumblr comments have made. If we are to believe everything in the game and everything that has been said by the game's writers after the fact, none of the political or military maneuvers by any of the Fereldan elite - Loghain, Cailan, Howe, Duncan, even Eamon/Teagan - made any sense whatsoever, were internally contradictory, and seem to have been crafted that way solely to create the post-Ostagar political situation rather than out of any appreciation for plausibility. And none of the characters, save Howe, has a clear characterization apart from "embarrassingly incompetent".

Y'know, that's actually not too different from A Song of Ice and Fire, in which the political history of Westeros is apparently one humongous pileup of idiotic mistake after idiotic mistake beginning with whatever the hell happened with Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Reading and playing in that sort of world gets tiresome after awhile; it's nice that perfect competence isn't assumed, but writers' own lack of facility with politics and warfare tends to create mistakes anyway without deliberately making everybody a drooling moron. Martin is awful at writing warfare...and BioWare is usually not great at it either.

Second, after Ostagar, Howe commands, even without Highever, the largest contingent of troops, what with Redcliffe being overrun by undead, knights scattered, and Eamon poisoned. Loghain needs those troops in the civil war. The easiest way to ensure he gets them is to ignore what Howe did and then give him Highever and  Denerim, ensuring that one of his supporters is also the commander of one of the largest military forces in Ferelden. It's simply what's practical at that point.

There is no evidence about the size of any of the extant forces in Fereldan. We have no numbers whatsoever. It was one of the few things relating to warfare that the Origins writers got right: don't provide too many details, because they can only serve to trip you up. We also know essentially nothing about the outbreak of the civil war: who was against Loghain, who was for him, why people took the sides that they did, etc.

I think that Loghain and Howe portrayed as Han Shot First indicated appear to be rather more competent than otherwise, and I think that - apart from writers' subsequent attempts to claim that Loghain was not even responsible for the things he was specifically depicted as being responsible for in the game (e.g. sanctioning Caladrius' slaving operation) - the alternative portrait of Loghain is no less evil and a good deal dumber. If the Loghain that the writers want to show is so out of touch that he doesn't even know about anything his own regency government is doing, that's their business, I suppose. If we're supposed to believe that the Hero of the River Dane's good-faith contribution to the battle of Ostagar resulted in the near-destruction of Ferelden, that's fine.

Just makes the game and its storytelling a wasted opportunity.

To some degree the only justifiable reason to side with Bhelen is the metagame knowledge that he gets on the whole better results for Orzammar as a whole than Harrowmont does.* However, since the DN knows them better than the player would, you can easily imagine that they would be able to extrapolate the information you have to metagame for from their own knowledge.
 
* Unless you're a DC, but that's not relevant to the current proposition and is at any rate selfishly privileging your family over the rest of Orzammar in your decision.

I wouldn't say "only" reason. Neither one of them presents such a compelling argument that the other's argument is obviously wrong. Neither of them appears blameless for the state of affairs in the Assembly. Bhelen brings up most of his programs as talking points anyway, like "more trade!" (however that is supposed to happen) and "help the casteless so they'll fight for us!" If a character is interested in those policies and thinks that Bhelen is likely to enact them, then that ought to be enough of a reason for her to support him.

I also have difficulty roleplaying a DN who sides with Bhelen, but I can see how one could make a character so devoted to family ties (for example) that she would pick him over Harrowmont.

[mousestalker]

No one ever said Rendon Howe was the sharpest axe in the shed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So it's extremely difficult to plan for any single death to occur in a large battle, but perfectly normal to expect to successfully wipe out an entire family and their personal guard in one fell I wouldn't say "only" reason. Neither one of them presents such a compelling argument that the other's argument is obviously wrong. Neither of them appears blameless for the state of affairs in the Assembly. Bhelen brings up most of his programs as talking points anyway, like "more trade!" (however that is supposed to happen) and "help the casteless so they'll fight for us!" If a character is interested in those policies and thinks that Bhelen is likely to enact them, then that ought to be enough of a reason for her to support him.

I also have difficulty roleplaying a DN who sides with Bhelen, but I can see how one could make a character so devoted to family ties (for example) that she would pick him over Harrowmont.

When does he mention helping the casteless?

[Aimi]

When does he mention helping the casteless?

It's, like, the most relevant policy that separates him from Harrowmont? ("Help" here having a fairly narrow definition.) I know it plays a minor role in his First Task, in the dialogue with Denek Helmi, who is of similar persuasion.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's, like, the most relevant policy that separates him from Harrowmont? ("Help" here having a fairly narrow definition.) I know it plays a minor role in his First Task, in the dialogue with Denek Helmi, who is of similar persuasion.

Yes, I'm aware that it's the most relevant policy that separates him from Harrowmont. In which context you'd think he'd make it more obvious than he does. For instance I don't remember being allowed to mention it to Denek; the reason you tell him he should vote for Bhelen is on the spurious charge that Harrowmont is swindling his family. I mean, if Bhelen had told Denek of this in confidence he might very well have gotten that vote without having to tell any lies that Denek should have been able to see though with a second's investigation.

[Monica21]

So it's extremely difficult to plan for any single death to occur in a large battle, but perfectly normal to expect to successfully wipe out an entire family and their personal guard in one fell swoop with no survivors? Never mind Fergus, who had already left with the Highever troops.

 

Well, yeah. Precisely because Fergus had already left with most of the Highever troops and because Howe's troops were almost all that remained behind. The Couslands are pretty easy pickings, frankly, and if Dog doesn't wake up the HN, you're dead before you even open your eyes. On the other hand, even hoping to control what happens to a single individual in close combat during a battle that size is damn near impossible.

 

As for the rest, well, I'm not going to change anyone's mind on what they think of Howe or Loghain, their involvement in the Cousland massacre or what happened at Ostagar. What does annoy me is that the writers who actually wrote these lines haven't said a peep about them in years. If their intent was to create a character that was just evil, then fine, but they didn't do that. Maybe they didn't mean to create a character who was this divisive, but they did, and they just sit back and are happy to go with the villian/traitor narrative, despite everything they said and what the epilogue says about Loghain if he kills the Archdemon. (Yeah, I know the epilogue isn't canon.)

 

The thing is that Loghain is frankly the most interesting character in the game and the most layered. Whatever you choose to do with him, whether you think he knew about the plot against the Couslands or not, any decision you make about his fate is perfectly acceptable. Every reason is a good reason, but the writers have backed away from creating a layered character and instead just dug in and haven't looked up in years. Hell, maybe it was all just an accident and only later did they realize that they meant to create a boring black and white villian but except they didn't. Loghain may be the most accidentally interesting NPC I've ever encountered in a video game.

[Han Shot First]

I can already taste the regret in replying to this.

Gaider hasn't just said so on Twitter. It was confirmed in several threads on the old forums not long after Origins release. Howe didn't need anyone to sanction his actions. It's clear in the Human Noble Origin that there is some generational bad blood between the Howes and the Couslands. As a HN, if you talk to Howe in the dungeon he confirms that he really just hated your father. Howe's plan is to leave no survivors, and had not counted on your HN to escape, and that's the only thing that thwarts his plan. Had you not escaped, then it's as Duncan said. He would have told Cailan anything he wished and Cailan would have no reason not to believe Howe.
 

 

I know that Gaider has said as much in other places beyond Twitter. I'm fact I'm not really sure if he said anything about Loghain and the Couslands at all on Twitter, as I don't follow it. I just know that it was said somewhere online, rather than portrayed in the actual games. I was using Twitter canon as a sort of shorthand for canon for fictional universe that gets established on social media rather than in the games, films, or books that those fictional universes were spawned from. I'm against that practice, particularly when it makes a mess of the already established story, as it has done in this case. David Gaider is usally a good writer, but I think sometimes his flaw is that he is a little bit like George Lucas in not knowing when to leave a story alone. After that story has been published, quit tinkering and editing and introducing changes.

 

As for bad blood between Howe and the Couslands, that in part explain's Howe's motivations. But it does not explain why Howe thought he could get away with it. Put yourself in Howe's boots. How do you explain to the king, the deaths of the Couslands and every servant, staff member, knight, and man-at-arms in their castle? How do you explain the fact that your own men are now occupying Highever and the scene of the crime? How do you explain away the fact the Couslands were murdered at a time when their army had mostly departed, except for your own rear guard? How do you keep your plans secret when likely hundreds of your own troops were involved in it? The larger the plot, the larger the likelihood of leaks. There is simply no realistic way for Howe to conceal his involvement. Anyone with a half of a brain would have immediately recognized Howe as the murderer. His plan was not exactly subtle. 

 

Given that there was no way anyone was not going to suspect Howe, he needs Cailan dead. Treason and murder have always traditionally been capital offenses in all cultures, and it just not make sense for Howe to commit it half-cocked and without at least some reasonable expectation of getting away with it. That expectation could only come from foreknowledge of Cailan's downfall.

 

If we were to take the twitter canon as the correct version of events, it turns Howe into a suicidal idiot who simply got extremely lucky rather than someone who came up with a solid plan for gaining Highever. It also makes Loghain a much less interesting character, as his own plan is now full of holes. He then had no plan to deal with the Couslands, who would surely oppose him and possibly topple him, and simply gets lucky that Howe's plan to go Leroy Jenkins on the Couslands is carried out at precisely the same time he's betraying the king. All of that is also not very plausible in the least and reduces both characters to rash incompetents who simply got lucky, and the story would be diminished because of it.

 

Second, after Ostagar, Howe commands, even without Highever, the largest contingent of troops, what with Redcliffe being overrun by undead, knights scattered, and Eamon poisoned. Loghain needs those troops in the civil war. The easiest way to ensure he gets them is to ignore what Howe did and then give him Highever and  Denerim, ensuring that one of his supporters is also the commander of one of the largest military forces in Ferelden. It's simply what's practical at that point.
 

 

If Howe commands the second largest contigent of troops post-Ostagar it is only because Loghain does not strip of him of rank, title, and land, confirms him as the new Teyrn of Highever, and gives him the Arling of Denerim to boot. His military strength and political influence was in large measure bestowed upon him by Loghain after Ostagar. The Banns and freeholders who once owed fealty to the Couslands, or to the previous Arl of Denerim, have no reason to swear fealty to Howe until Loghain raises Howe above them and makes him their new liege.

 

Had Loghain instead stripped Howe of rank and declared him an outlaw, his power would have evaporated in an instant. Likely none of those Banns who were once vassals to the Couslands would have thrown in with him, as Loghain has a much larger power base and after Ostagar was the effective ruler of the country. As the hero of the River Dane, Loghain also commanded a more formidable military reputation than Howe making it even less likely that minor lordlings would consider throwing in with Amaranthine. They also would have likely marched against Howe, if not to avenge the Couslands then to gain favor with the Regency and perhaps gain the Arling of Amaranthine or the Teyrnir of Highever for themselves. How many of Howe's own knights would have stayed with him if he was declared a traitor to the realm and marked for death?  

 

Howe rises in power because Loghain benefits from the elimination of the Couslands, as they were the most powerful family in Ferelden other than the royals, and they were ardent Theirin loyalists to boot. Loghain needs them dead to secure the country. He also needs someone to keep those Banns and freeholders in line who once owed fealty to the Couslands, some of whom no doubt would have questionable loyalties to the Regency. I think that also makes it awfully convenient (and suspicious) that the Couslands should die and Highever be seized by a reliable Regency ally precisely when Loghain needs both to happen. 

[TEWR]

There are plenty of good reasons to side with Bhelen, as I've done (though I still find him a hack, but I side with him because the game forces me into a false dichotomy of A vs. B.) Bhelen favors increased trade with the surface, which you can find out upon entering Orzammar. Metagame wise, there's also the fact that he's willing to give more rights to the casteless, but you only find out this when you make him king and meet people in Dust Town.

 

He's ruthless, don't get me wrong, but he's also willing to get rid of the outdated modes of the Assembly because the Dwarves are in a perpetual state of war (like Eithnar Bemot was) and the Assembly gets in the way.

 

I still think he's a hack because apparently he couldn't cut it during the game proper (and indeed, follow-up events suggest he still fails despite what the epilogue slides wanted to tell you) but even a progressive half-assed competent hack is preferable to an incompetent traditionalist who tries to cater to everyone and anyone.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I still think he's a hack because apparently he couldn't cut it during the game proper (and indeed, follow-up events suggest he still fails despite what the epilogue slides wanted to tell you) but even a progressive half-assed competent hack is preferable to an incompetent traditionalist who tries to cater to everyone and anyone.

Which follow-up events are those?

[TEWR]

 

The only dwarf noble i could see supporting Bhelen, is one that fulfills all these requisites:

- killed Trian yourself (so you are guilty anyway)

- loyalty to house > loyalty to oneself (ex. Dace´s quest)

- makes the ultimate sacrifice (cannot bear to be a mere warden while Bhelen is king, plus want a glorious death)

 

Please. Politically savvy Wardens could easily put Bhelen on the throne and use him as a means for their own ends. I put him on in-game because of the politics involved (though my headcanon is a full on rejection in favor of retaking the throne, as the lore, if studied, shows as perfectly possible for a DN)

[TEWR]

Which follow-up events are those?

 

The comments by the Dwarven soldiers pre-Final Battle about how the noble families haven't really devoted enough soldiers (or something. I'm on vacation right now so bear in mind finding the exact dialogue isn't something I can do. Laggy interwebz) and, unless one looks at it from a certain perspective, House Helmi going towards Kal-Hirol with their soldiers.

 

Those are the two that come to mind first and foremost. I'd elaborate on the problems as it applies to Bhelen's rule, but get back to me on this Wednesday.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The comments by the Dwarven soldiers pre-Final Battle about how the noble families haven't really devoted enough soldiers (or something. I'm on vacation right now so bear in mind finding the exact dialogue isn't something I can do. Laggy interwebz) and, unless one looks at it from a certain perspective, House Helmi going towards Kal-Hirol with their soldiers.

 

Those are the two that come to mind first and foremost. I'd elaborate on the problems as it applies to Bhelen's rule, but get back to me on this Wednesday.

Oh, right. House Klaret I think it was. Bear in mind that that was early in his rule, though. As was House Helmi, assuming that Bhelen did not approve of or at least authorize that mission. Unless you have a failure of command that happens far later I'm not sure it's anything more than a shaky start before he hits his stride.

[Monica21]

@Han Shot First:

 

All good points and I understand your POV, but I'll just say that suspicion and proof are two different things. There's no way to prove, for example, that the Couslands weren't killed in an uprising by their own soldiers and that Howe's men came upon the fighting too late. Sure it's suspicious, but it doesn't really mean much considering the medieval time period we're looking at. Howe's an Arl who supposedly took great care in presenting something of a friendship with Bryce Cousland to the rest of Ferelden. In addition, if you play HN, you meet people who are sympathetic that your entire family died, but no one actually cares who did it. No one is demanding justice for the Couslands. If someone in-game doesn't like Howe, it's because of an entirely different reason than, "that's that guy who murdered the teryn."

 

As for Howe's men, it doesn't matter that he wasn't stripped of rank and title, what does matter is that Teagan told Loghain that the Bannorn wouldn't stand for his regency. Loghain needed more soldiers to fight the banns. I can't remember if Loghain addresses it if you recruit him, but something makes me think he was planning to deal with Howe after the war. Loghain needed more men and took the most practical position he could. All in my opinion, of course.

[SemiJames]

Just want to say, that I'm importing my dwarf noble into the Inquisition. He gleefully went along with murdering Trian, got blamed by Bhelen, and cast out. Became a Grey Warden, bashed Isolde unconscious then murdered her son, murdered Jarvia in Dust Town, murdered Ruck in the Deep Roads, murdered Branka, and finally getting the chance, got to kill another brother; Bhelen. You don't mess with a double-kinslayer Grey Warden. He'll do the job, no matter the cost. Just don't impede my progress. Oh, and the name's Beard. Don't forget it. 

[Gilsa]

One of the more interesting DN game I've read about was from other poster (KoP, dunno if he's still around) back in the DAO days was this:

DN respected and admired Bhelen's game. DN went on to put a weak Alistair (not hardened) on the human throne and appointed himself as Alistair's chancellor. This way the Aeducan brothers would be in a position to control both dwarven and human kingdoms for their own ends.

Of course, this is just one way to interpret the events of DAO, but I thought it was a nice perspective.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

One of the more interesting DN game I've read about was from other poster (KoP, dunno if he's still around) back in the DAO days was this:

DN respected and admired Bhelen's game. DN went on to put a weak Alistair (not hardened) on the human throne and appointed himself as Alistair's chancellor. This way the Aeducan brothers would be in a position to control both dwarven and human kingdoms for their own ends.

Of course, this is just one way to interpret the events of DAO, but I thought it was a nice perspective.

I did that with my second Aeducan. KoP gave me the idea. (I also had my paladinesque Surana [not the Chaotic Evil blood mage, though the two have two of the same specs] serve as chancellor to an unhardended Alistair, but her I picture as doing it for far less self-serving reasons.)

[dragonflight288]

OP

 

You can have the one-night stand with Mardy, and grudgingly work with Bhelen to secure your son's birthright. I know he'll get it if you work with Harrowmont as well, but that's one way to get the DN to work with Bhelen. 

[Ap0crypha]

Well, when I did my DN, she was a complete and utter brat. "Gorim, why is this man talking to me?" "Gorim, kill him for looking at me", yadda yadda yadda. Easily manipulated into killing her brother, threw a big temper tantrum over her exile. She was just unlikeable, but was popular for her battle skills.

 

Anyway, when she came back she'd gone through a lot of character development and was no longer that spoiled little ******. She was angry at first, yeah, but ultimately she recognized that both she and Trian would have been terrible rulers, and that if Bhelen was clever enough to remove them from his path, he'd earned the throne. Plus I figured she'd grown up knowing Harrowmont, knowing first-hand how weak he was and that he would never be able to rule Orzammar well, nor get her her troops. Hence her little brother won.

 

Basically, if the DN a) puts family before revenge, is able to recognize that Bhelen's the better ruler, or c) still loves their little brother despite everything, then I could totally see them siding with him.

[TEWR]

One of the more interesting DN game I've read about was from other poster (KoP, dunno if he's still around) back in the DAO days was this:

DN respected and admired Bhelen's game. DN went on to put a weak Alistair (not hardened) on the human throne and appointed himself as Alistair's chancellor. This way the Aeducan brothers would be in a position to control both dwarven and human kingdoms for their own ends.

Of course, this is just one way to interpret the events of DAO, but I thought it was a nice perspective.

 

Yup, KoP's Aeducan was a grandmaster of the political scene.

 

Indeed, I'd almost be tempted to do that myself, because one could actually say that an Aeducan Warden is in control of both kingdoms, upon being named Paragon. But I prefer my alliance between Orzammar and Ferelden between the Cousland twins, Xanthos, Anora, and Alistair.