Spoilers for the ending of DA:O!!!!!
In your opinion... what is the best good-guy ending for DA:O? I've done both... I spared Loghain and made him redeem himself by being the one to kill the Archdemon and die in the process... I've also killed Loghain and made the Ultimate Sacrifice myself.
I just can't decide which one is the better ending. Does Loghain deserve redemption? Why does Alistair act like such a whiney ****** if you spare him?
Why does Alistair act like such a whiney ****** if you spare him?
Seriously? You can't understand why Alistair gets upset at letting Loghain live?
1. Abandoned the Ferelden army, allowing thousands to be massacred by darkspawn
2. Of those thousands was Duncan, a man Alistair thought of like a father
3. Loghain putting a bounty on any Grey Warden's head, causing you and Alistair to be hunted for over a year.
4. Alistair sees being a Warden one of the greatest honors. To allow Loghain to go through the Joining to possibly have that seemed wrong to him.
My personal preference is to just do the DR. Everyone lives. HUZZAH!
Anyway. To me Loghain didn't deserve redemption. BUT, had my Warden actually known why Riordan said we needed more Wardens, I would have spared him to keep my Warden and Alistair alive. But seeing as Riordan didn't deign to tell us before hand and there wasn't an option to go "Okay, hold up a sec Alistair. Let's put Loghain down in the dungeon and see what Riordan has to say. If we don't like what we hear, we kill Loghain. Sound fair?"
If you want to go for the best good-guy ending. It would be for you to make the sacrifice imo
Well my personal "best good guy ending" is spare loghain, Alistair and Anora as rulers, have OGB and everybody lives (depending on what the OGB does in future games this could actually go really bad). Anyway out of the two you've mentioned I would say redeemer. Loghain's going to die either way but this way he gets to redeem himself (and I think almost everyone should have the chance of redemption) and your warden lives to sort out amaranthine and whatever the warden might do in future games.
The downside is what happens to Alistair. If you let Loghain live he will either be executed or become a wandering drunk and a small coup will be lead in his name(or at least there's the rumor of a coup in the epilogue slides). Another option (and the best in my opinion) is to harden Alistair and then make king with Anora as queen meaning he survives and Ferelden (according to the epilogue) gets 2 very good rulers. As to why he's such a whiney ****** if you let loghain live, he was originally meant to be a battle hardened, jaded veteran so his actions at the landsmeet actually fit this personality. When they decided to change his personality to something much warmer I imagine they had already decided on what he would do in the landsmeet and by then it was too late to change (or something else, this is just me guessing).
Seriously? You can't understand why Alistair gets upset at letting Loghain live?
I don't mean his initial objections when you spare him at the Landsmeet. I'm referring to the cold speech he gives you alone later. I think after all we've been through, he should at least think I have a good reason for sparing Loghain. He basically says "blah blah blah, we can't be friends anymore." I mean, are you serious? I helped you find your family. I saved Eamon and his family. I made you into a KING... could you at least show little more respect/gratitude?
I don't really like the Ultimate sacrifice ending for anyone. I personally prefer the Dark Ritual. I don't really like killing Loghain either. I understand why he did what he did. Putting Loghain through the joining seems a smarter and more justifiable action than just killing him out right. The joining is often lethal. Let the maker decide what to do with him. If he dies, then Alistair gets what he wants. If he lives, you gain a powerful warrior for your fight against the dark spawn.
If you are insistent on someone dying at the end of your playthrough, let it be Loghain. Your Warden still has much to do.
As a warden, you can't allow yourself to base your decisions on good and evil or right and wrong. These are abstract terms meant for lesser people. You must be above such petty things. All that matters is eradicating the dark spawn. One way or another. As a Grey Warden, your opinions should end there.
I agree about sparing Loghain. I don't agree with what he did, but he honestly thought that he was helping everyone (though he was EXTREMELY misguided) and he defiled to me when he was defeated. I these games, I'm generally the "sparing my enemies if I can" type. Keeping Loghain alive would be the obvious choice if Alistair wasn't so dead set on killing him. I understand Alistair's reasons for not wanting Loghain to join (just like I understand Loghain's reasons) but once again that doesn't mean that I agree with them. When I first played, I kept waiting for the Persuade to pop up so I could get Alistair to see that we need every man we can get and that if Loghain is willing to seek redemption by helping us, then he should be allowed to do so. Being a Gray Warden isn't an honor, it is a hard job that few take for a good reason.
For my good files, I spare Loghain and make Alistair king with Anora, so I can have both around, to some extent.
Ultimate Sacrifice is about as "selfless good guy" an ending as you can get in Dragon Age: Origins in my opinion, especially if you do it after turning Loghain into a Grey Warden and refuse his offer to kill the Archdemon for you.
Bardox9, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Not much I can add. And by the way, I love your quote from Upton Sinclair!!
P.S. However, having said that I must admit that I never let Loghain live in any of my playthroughs. I just could not stand the guy and usually let Alastair kill him either in the duel or after I had dueled him.
I think sparing Loghain considering everything he did, and especially after Alistair's painful protests, is a darker scenario than making the ultimate sacrifice yourself. Without meta-gaming, your warden can't even know Loghain's true potential use as a warden.
Does Loghain deserve redemption? I don't think so which is also a reason I don't free Sten. Some acts aren't redeemable IMO. It's also unfair to people who are executed for lesser crimes who never get such an option. Besides, I don't necessarily think Loghain taking the killing blow would redeem him. It wouldn't hurt though.
Ultimate Sacrifice is about as "selfless good guy" an ending as you can get in Dragon Age: Origins in my opinion, especially if you do it after turning Loghain into a Grey Warden and refuse his offer to kill the Archdemon for you.
It's more "selfless martyr" to me.
If you want completely good guy, spare Loghain's life and make Alistair rule with Anora. Refuse to do the Dark Ritual, and make the Ultimate Sacrifice. I doubt any in the country would besmirch your honor after such a selfless act, not even Loghain.
If you want completely good guy, spare Loghain's life and make Alistair rule with Anora. Refuse to do the Dark Ritual, and make the Ultimate Sacrifice. I doubt any in the country would besmirch your honor after such a selfless act, not even Loghain.
This ending doesn't sound honorable to me at all. It just sounds like someone who wanted to get out of their responsibilities. It's the try to make everyone happy ending, which will probably end up screwing over the world once you're gone.
Do you really think Alistair will be able to stand up to Anora and Loghain once the Warden is dead? They would eat him alive even if he was hardened.
I'm definitely thinking that making a hardened Alistair and Anora rule together, sparing Loghain, and letting him land the final blow to the Archdemon is the best way to go. Alistair might be angry at first, but he definitely gets over it. If you play Awakening afterwards, he shows up at the beginning of the game acting like he's your best friend again.
Loghain is sent to Orlais, no matter what anyone does. Commanding Loghain to kill the Archdemon instead of killing it yourself could equally be construed as escaping ones responsibilities. If I were trying to appease everyone, I'd have killed Loghain. My point of view isn't about appeasing anyone, it's about what's best for Ferelden overall.
It's also unfair to people who are executed for lesser crimes who never get such an option.
Notwithstanding that this is true, I view it as a rather poor reason to kill someone.
Notwithstanding that this is true, I view it as a rather poor reason to kill someone.
Quite true. Also, nobility and the high ranking people were often dealt justice with different rules from commoners.
Quite true. Also, nobility and the high ranking people were often dealt justice with different rules from commoners.
I don't view that as entirely right either. Let them have a go at the darkspawn chalice too.
Edit: Well, if they can be trusted. My usual argument against sparing Loghain is that the guy who's just spent a year hating your guts and trying to kill you now gets to live armed to the teeth in the same camp you sleep in. We the players know that doesn't go poorly. The Warden doesn't.
For me the ultimate good guy is: Loghain is executed by Alistair, the PC does the ultimate sacrifice, Alistair remains a warden, and Anora rules alone.
Putting the warden Alistair on the throne is not good, is selfish and make the wardens look bad. Letting Alistair remain a warden is good (he will tell you right away, he never wanted to be king) because it is what he wants. Loghain gets justice, but his daughter Anora does not pay for his crimes, as she remains queen.
Notwithstanding that this is true, I view it as a rather poor reason to kill someone.
Agreed, but it's still a reason. There were plenty of other reasons to do it. In this case there wasn't a compelling reason to me to deny justice when it's enacted on so many others. Even if they needed Grey Wardens there's plenty of other younger, more trustworthy men who could become one before Loghain.
"We need him like we need being stabbed in the back, or did you forget him being a great general didn't help us last time?"
Agreed, but it's still a reason. There were plenty of other reasons to do it. In this case there wasn't a compelling reason to me to deny justice when it's enacted on so many others. Even if they needed Grey Wardens there's plenty of other younger, more trustworthy men who could become one before Loghain.
"We need him like we need being stabbed in the back, or did you forget him being a great general didn't help us last time?"
I think the "we need him like we need being stabbed in the back" thing is the best argument to give, not because that's how I view Ostagar (although there is a case) but because of... basically everything else he's done all game. I don't view those as capital offenses (because I don't like the idea of a capital offense) but I view them as making him maybe not the safest person to sleep near. And since due to the game mechanics (which are probably partly based on Ferelden's disdain for long prison terms) those are the only options...
I think the "we need him like we need being stabbed in the back" thing is the best argument to give, not because that's how I view Ostagar (although there is a case) but because of... basically everything else he's done all game. I don't view those as capital offenses (because I don't like the idea of a capital offense) but I view them as making him maybe not the safest person to sleep near. And since due to the game mechanics (which are probably partly based on Ferelden's disdain for long prison terms) those are the only options...
People often don't list the "I'm not sure I'd feel safe sleeping near Loghain" point as a reason not to recruit him although it's a very obvious one. It's the same reason I don't recruit Sten or Zevran if I'm role-playing at all. It's just crazy.
I am a redeemer so I give Loghain the kill, marry Anora myself if HN and if not then she rules alone, and I let Alistair rot in a prison or be executed. I don't do the DR either.
I can never condone Loghain. So in my "good people" ending, it's always Alistair married to Anora and the Warden do Ultimate Sacrifice.
Usually, I always put a headcanon with a rogue having DR, and a mage having ultimate sacrifice.
I can never condone Loghain. So in my "good people" ending, it's always Alistair married to Anora and the Warden do Ultimate Sacrifice.
Usually, I always put a headcanon with a rogue having DR, and a mage having ultimate sacrifice.
Agreed. I see the value in the Redeemer ending, and from a good guy perspective, it fits in with a save everyone stance. But I just can't bring myself to give Loghain a second chance after all the lives he's ruined. There are far more deserving candidates just out of the lives he's had a personal hand in destroying - Jowan, Cailan... letting him redeem himself as a hero is a big kick in the teeth for his victims imo. It doesn't feel like a “good” choice, as the good can't always turn a blind eye, as it will be the innocent who will pay.
If Loghain showed any remorse before the point in which would make our decision, it would make more sense to offer such redemption. Out of the other recruitments that are dubious Sten does speak of a wish to atone, iirc, and Zevran can at least move you to pity and it's not personal with him.
But most of all, letting Loghain die a hero is in no way a punishment when the alternative is ignoble execution.
I think letting Alistair execute him at the Landsmeet is a sort of good ending – better than having to endure death by hanging, which Alistair says at Flemeth's is what will happen to him – this being probably the traditional punishment for crimes of such nature. In comparison it's a merciful death.
The possible repercussions of the dark ritual make it too chancy, and I think a “good guy” would avoid it, and he wouldn't let Alistair die in his place, so yes, ultimate sacrifice.
Ultimate sacrifice of the main warden is the Heroic endings, or Redempiton ending is great, save your life and allow Loghain to forgive himself.
Forgivness>every other ending
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think they're both "good" endings. It really just comes down to whether you want closure to your Warden's story in DAO or not. Or if you wish it to continue into a unsettling mystery.
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