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[inko1nsiderate]

I have heard the assertion that Tranquil mages original personalities still exist, and are helpless to control their bodies. If that's true (which I don't remember seeing any evidence of personally) then being a saarebas might be better. Otherwise I don't see what's so bad about it, unless you're cured and have to live with the memories of having your emotions stunted. (Whatever Gaider says the whole "no emotions at all" thing just doesn't seem consistent with what I've seen.) 

It basically removes all free will, and yeah, technically you still have free will... except you don't really because you lose any ability to really enact 'radical freedom'.  As long as you have access to your personality you can still try to exercise that freedom, even if it results in inevitable death (like it would under the Qun).  It's a fairly abstract reason to object to it, but I stand by it.  What I've seen of the tranquil is a fate worse than death, even if you never experience it subjectively it removes all semblance of radical freedom that even the saarebas still have.  And anyway, in DA2 when Anders' friend became un-tranquil for a while it seems like he was aware of the experience of being tranquil, and he wanted to die.  So I'll take that first hand account as probably a fairly accurate representation of the horror that is tranquility.  Kteojon, on the contrary, stoically accepted his fate and destroyed himself.  He chose to follow the Qun's radical and brutal solution, which is the kind of choice no Tranquil is really given.

[CavalierToast]

that doesn't mean your interpretation of his letter is the only valid interpretation.

Naturally it isn't. As I said earlier, to me the tone of that letter doesn't seem to indicate that Feynriel is enslaved or miserable.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It basically removes all free will, and yeah, technically you still have free will... except you don't really because you lose any ability to really enact 'radical freedom'.  As long as you have access to your personality you can still try to exercise that freedom, even if it results in inevitable death (like it would under the Qun).  It's a fairly abstract reason to object to it, but I stand by it.  What I've seen of the tranquil is a fate worse than death, even if you never experience it subjectively it removes all semblance of radical freedom that even the saarebas still have.  And anyway, in DA2 when Anders' friend became un-tranquil for a while it seems like he was aware of the experience of being tranquil, and he wanted to die.  So I'll take that first hand account as probably a fairly accurate representation of the horror that is tranquility.  Kteojon, on the contrary, stoically accepted his fate and destroyed himself.  He chose to follow the Qun's radical and brutal solution, which is the kind of choice no Tranquil is really given.

Except that we see a Tranquil choose to aid Wynne and her group in Asunder. Not only does this take the form of not reporting them to Lambert for their plan to destroy the phylacteries, she actually warns them of the exact details of the time constraints they're under. When Evangeline expresses confusion in a way that implicitly references your argument, the Tranquil says "Obedience is prudent. To confuse it for a lack of free will would be an error," with a small smile on her face. And now you know why I don't accept the argument that Tranquil are wholly without emotion.

[inko1nsiderate]

Except that we see a Tranquil choose to aid Wynne and her group in Asunder. Not only does this take the form of not reporting them to Lambert for their plan to destroy the phylacteries, she actually warns them of the exact details of the time constraints they're under. When Evangeline expresses confusion in a way that implicitly references your argument, the Tranquil says "Obedience is prudent. To confuse it for a lack of free will would be an error," with a small smile on her face. And now you know why I don't accept the argument that Tranquil are wholly without emotion.

Without ambition, or most emotions, how can the Tranquil experience the existential angst of the responsibility their freedom poses?    They cannot.  Without anxiety and dread that we feel in the face of radical freedom, then the freedom isn't fully meaningful as the rationality of the Tranquil means they cannot even stoically accept their sisyphean fate as they never realize the meaninglessness of their lives because they never seek to question it.  The tranquil do not have the option to change their values through action because they are depicted as rational, or prudent, to a fault.  Even if they choose to help people rebelling, they didn't choose to do it for fully irrational or emotional reason and they cannot because of what has been done to them.  The saarebas might have far more restrictions in something that looks like personal freedom, but they still have the ability to decide what they are.  In principle, any one in the Qun can become Tal-Vashoth, the grey ones who deny that their nature is fixed.  They can decide to not acknowledge who or what they are, or they can affirm their belief in the Qun and follow it's prescriptions even if it means self-destruction.  Before Asunder, the Tranquil cannot choose to reject their tranquility (even if it means inevitable death at the hands of the Templars).  In principle, the tranquil have more personal freedoms, but in a very profound way they are more restricted than the saarebas, and it is that form of repression that I find more upsetting on a personal level.

That being said, the right of tranquility is a prudent way of dealing with it, and is in some other ways more humane than what the Qunari do.  I can see why most in Thedas see it as a necessary evil that is superior to the alternatives presented in the Qun, I just don't personally share that view IRL.

As to the particular case of Asunder... doesn't that book show that tranquility is reversible?  I'd take a knowing smile on the face of the Tranquil to imply some kind of nod to the audience about how that character might not really be tranquil... but I didn't actually read Asunder.

[Adanu]

Because Tevinter is very much a mage meritocracy, with ruthlessness and a political system that is far worse than Orzammar, without the population issue, and with the Casteless as slaves instead of being ignored.

 

Unless you're at the top of the crop, or powerful enough to make it there with relative ease, you're going to hate it there.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As to the particular case of Asunder... doesn't that book show that tranquility is reversible?  I'd take a knowing smile on the face of the Tranquil to imply some kind of nod to the audience about how that character might not really be tranquil... but I didn't actually read Asunder.

The Tranquil are not granted access to that cure, and since they cannot cast spells they cannot cure themselves. Besides which the cured Tranquil are so incredibly emotional after they are cured that they absolutely cannot pass for non-cured Tranquil.

 

And really, given that one of the competing crimelords in Denerim describes a Tranquil mage as a "friend," the Tranquil reciprocates enough (or is scared enough) to lie to the police for the crimelord's benefit, and the Tranquil in the Tower you can save from the shades are able to show gratitude, I don't think that a little smile is out of character for a Tranquil who has not been cured. The first two, I think, can be explained in ways other than the Tranquil having emotions, but the third one I think gives the lie to Gaider's assertion that they are entirely without them.

[Sully13]

Its a bit like asking why a walmart workers strike dosn't flee to the USSR.. back when that was a thing. 

[KainD]

The Tevinters have the same Circle system. The main real difference is the possibility of rising to a rank where it no longer applies to you.

 

Wrong, Tevinter Circles are not a mandatory institution for mages. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wrong, Tevinter Circles are not a mandatory institution for mages. 

I got the impression from some Gaider quotes that there were, unless you were so highly privileged (which requires a degree of rank, and thus a degree of power) that you were exempt. (But then I suppose Varania should be in one if this were true.)

[KainD]

I got the impression from some Gaider quotes that there were, unless you were so highly privileged (which requires a degree of rank, and thus a degree of power) that you were exempt. (But then I suppose Varania should be in one if this were true.)

 

No mages just don't go to the circle unless they want to period, or better yet, if they are accepted. In Tevinter being a part of the circle is a privilege, and everybody wants to be a part of it, but only people with considerable magical talent are accepted. Being a part of the circle is a thing of power and politics as well. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Without ambition, or most emotions, how can the Tranquil experience the existential angst of the responsibility their freedom poses?    They cannot.  Without anxiety and dread that we feel in the face of radical freedom, then the freedom isn't fully meaningful as the rationality of the Tranquil means they cannot even stoically accept their sisyphean fate as they never realize the meaninglessness of their lives because they never seek to question it.  The tranquil do not have the option to change their values through action because they are depicted as rational, or prudent, to a fault.  Even if they choose to help people rebelling, they didn't choose to do it for fully irrational or emotional reason and they cannot because of what has been done to them.  The saarebas might have far more restrictions in something that looks like personal freedom, but they still have the ability to decide what they are.  In principle, any one in the Qun can become Tal-Vashoth, the grey ones who deny that their nature is fixed.  They can decide to not acknowledge who or what they are, or they can affirm their belief in the Qun and follow it's prescriptions even if it means self-destruction.  Before Asunder, the Tranquil cannot choose to reject their tranquility (even if it means inevitable death at the hands of the Templars).  In principle, the tranquil have more personal freedoms, but in a very profound way they are more restricted than the saarebas, and it is that form of repression that I find more upsetting on a personal level.

That being said, the right of tranquility is a prudent way of dealing with it, and is in some other ways more humane than what the Qunari do.  I can see why most in Thedas see it as a necessary evil that is superior to the alternatives presented in the Qun, I just don't personally share that view IRL.

As to the particular case of Asunder... doesn't that book show that tranquility is reversible?  I'd take a knowing smile on the face of the Tranquil to imply some kind of nod to the audience about how that character might not really be tranquil... but I didn't actually read Asunder.

The Tranquil are not granted access to that cure, and since they cannot cast spells they cannot cure themselves. Besides which the cured Tranquil are so incredibly emotional after they are cured that they absolutely cannot pass for non-cured Tranquil.

 

And really, given that one of the competing crimelords in Denerim describes a Tranquil mage as a "friend," the Tranquil reciprocates enough (or is scared enough) to lie to the police for the crimelord's benefit, and the Tranquil in the Tower you can save from the shades are able to show gratitude, I don't think that a little smile is out of character for a Tranquil who has not been cured. The first two, I think, can be explained in ways other than the Tranquil having emotions, but the third one I think gives the lie to Gaider's assertion that they are entirely without them.

 

 

No inko is right. I totally forgot that Wynne was an abomination who had a spirit inside her. Like Anders did with Karl, her close proximity to the Tranquil could temporarily reverse the Rite and give the Tranquil their emotions. Tranquil don't smile as that is an emotional response. That's probably why they decided to help Wynne. Wow nice that you caught that Inko.

[Augustei]

Tevinter is to busy at war with the Qunari trying to reclaim and hold Seheron to draw the attention of the southern nations right now.
Not to mention the Magisters would be opposed to the idea of a massive influx of foreign mages as they see them as nothing more than political competition according to David Gaider.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No inko is right. I totally forgot that Wynne was an abomination who had a spirit inside her. Like Anders did with Karl, her close proximity to the Tranquil could temporarily reverse the Rite and give the Tranquil their emotions. Tranquil don't smile as that is an emotional response. That's probably why they decided to help Wynne. Wow nice that you caught that Inko.

Except that we've seen newly cured Tranquil. They don't act that subdued about it. They get seriously emotional. Besides which the presence of a possessed person isn't enough to cure a Tranquil, even temporarily. Unless Wynne exerted herself and the spirit the Tranquil shouldn't have been restored.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Except that we've seen newly cured Tranquil. They don't act that subdued about it. They get seriously emotional. Besides which the presence of a possessed person isn't enough to cure a Tranquil, even temporarily. Unless Wynne exerted herself and the spirit the Tranquil shouldn't have been restored.

Well we've seen two tranquil's restored, one Karl, the other Pharamond. Pharamond was possessed and Karl restored by having Justice exert his control and be in close proximity. Now I don't remember if Wynne exerted herself but who's to say that an abomination or spirit in close proximity wouldn't be enough to give a little emotion out or perhaps that certain factors affect the emotional responses of temporary restoring the Rite such as how much the spirit exerts itself. I don't know why the Tranquil would have helped Wynne, as they go by logic. They shouldn't have cared about what happened to her since they lack emotions just like Karl set up Anders, they should have reported Wynne to the templars; and that smile is the first time I've seen any Tranquil exhibit any sort of emotional response aside from stoicism. They are most known for being expressionless and a smile refutes that. There is reasonable doubt that Wynne's spirit could have been a variable as reversing the Rite and spirits are related.

[Aimi]

The first two, I think, can be explained in ways other than the Tranquil having emotions, but the third one I think gives the lie to Gaider's assertion that they are entirely without them.

I think that the "no emotions" thing sounds better than it actually is. Trying to extricate emotions from motivations or actions is hard-to-impossible for modern psychology; if the Tranquil were emotionless, they'd just be, like, husks. Which they aren't.

[Roninbarista]

Wouldn't all the mages be refugees like the Fereldans who went to the Free Marches during the fifth blight?

 

It would not be pretty, and Tevinter many not want the mages unless they show promise and power.

 

Lastly there's that legalization of slavery, and mages in Tevinter won't hesitate to collar their own, and an outsider would do nicely.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well we've seen two tranquil's restored, one Karl, the other Pharamond. Pharamond was possessed and Karl restored by having Justice exert his control and be in close proximity. Now I don't remember if Wynne exerted herself but who's to say that an abomination or spirit in close proximity wouldn't be enough to give a little emotion out or perhaps that certain factors affect the emotional responses of temporary restoring the Rite such as how much the spirit exerts itself. I don't know why the Tranquil would have helped Wynne, as they go by logic. They shouldn't have cared about what happened to her since they lack emotions just like Karl set up Anders, they should have reported Wynne to the templars; and that smile is the first time I've seen any Tranquil exhibit any sort of emotional response aside from stoicism. They are most known for being expressionless and a smile refutes that. There is reasonable doubt that Wynne's spirit could have been a variable as reversing the Rite and spirits are related.

Except that I'd already given examples of Tranquil we know to be suffering the full effects of the process showing about as much emotion. To add to that, I'll mention Owain "preferring" to be in the stockroom instead of behind Wynne's barrier because it's "familiar." That's not logic, and it's in fact rather irrational. It's emotion. (Wait, that's in Wynne's presence too, so never mind that one.)

[Han Shot First]

The Tevinter Magisters might not be interested in an influx of mages, some of whom could end up potential rivals. Or maybe Tevinter doesn't want to get embroiled in having to face an Exalted March, particularly when it's also got the Qunari to worry about.

[Notshauna]

Except that I'd already given examples of Tranquil we know to be suffering the full effects of the process showing about as much emotion. To add to that, I'll mention Owain "preferring" to be in the stockroom instead of behind Wynne's barrier because it's "familiar." That's not logic, and it's in fact rather irrational. It's emotion.

The difficulty in understanding that is due to the fact that the emotional-rational dichotomy is a false dichotomy, there is no distinction as it's impossible to make any decision without emotion or rational thought. But, from an in universe standpoint that wouldn't be emotional, a preference for the status quo is usually the opposite of how emotions are depicted in fiction, emotion is something like fear, joy, anger, sadness, not familiarity.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The difficulty in understanding that is due to the fact that the emotional-rational dichotomy is a false dichotomy, there is no distinction as it's impossible to make any decision without emotion or rational thought. But, from an in universe standpoint that wouldn't be emotional, a preference for the status quo is usually the opposite of how emotions are depicted in fiction, emotion is something like fear, joy, anger, sadness, not familiarity.

Tl;dr it'd be far easier to stunt emotions than to remove them entirely?

[Notshauna]

Tl;dr it'd be far easier to stunt emotions than to remove them entirely?

Literally impossible without removing thought.

[rigron]

All this talk of the big bad Tevinter Imperium makes we want for a Dragon Age game set in Tevinter.

we all do for whatever reason qunari hating/mage hating or just to experiance the real tevinter instead of 2nd hand

 

This. I really expected for DA: Inquisition to have Tevinter as an avaliable site to go. Now I hope the next DA game in PS4/One/PC will be either settled on Tevinter or we can travel there. Or even a Tevinter DLC for Inquisition.