190 réponses à ce sujet

[GodBrandon]

Hopefully it never happens, because i did the saintly thing and completed the US.

[Revan Reborn]

I don't mind a DLC/expansion, but a full game? I would be very disappointed if that happened as it would make the US even less appealing. Awakening already was a bit of a mistake in that way. Also, I'd rather see new stories - DA is the only game that tells new stories in the same fantasy universe. No one else does this. 

 

 

The setting is what unites those stories together. You get to see the variety of perspectives on Thedas. The more we see, the more interesting Thedas and its history and mysteries become. I find Thedas a much more compelling setting than Tamriel (not necessarily in design, but in lore). The lore of the setting is part of the setting - I'm not just talking about set dressing. 

 

 

I feel like the lack of a central character, a central voice, in DA lore makes the setting and lore stronger in DA than it was in ME. The fact that it's not a world with Earth also helps that, I'm sure. I love ME, but I personally find Dragon Age more rewarding. We'll see if that continues with Inquisition or not, but I really liked the choice to tell a smaller, loosely related story with DA2. The story definitely worked for me very well. I like the aspect of changing protagonists and seeing the world through new eyes. 

 

 

 

See, I find ME to be a more traditional type of storytelling (neither is a particularly traditional type of game, due to the continuity) since it centers on one protagonist and that's much more traditional. I think DA is the most interesting Bioware franchise, though - it's the only one I'll read the novels, etc, for. 

Whether people thought Awakening was a mistake or not, it's unanimous that it was an amazing expansion, especially if you imported your Hero of Ferelden. As far as the ultimate sacrifice being a mistake, BioWare never suggested that. It clearly was meant to be an option but not prevent them from doing more tasks with the Warden which was always part of their plan.

 

You sure about that? The Elder Scrolls comes to mind right at the top of my head. It has been in the same universe since 1994 and they always have a new protagonist with each new installment. Dragon Age is hardly original in this respect. Lets not also forget KotOR, which had Revan as the protagonist in one and the Exile as the protagonist in the sequel. Still the same galaxy. Mass Effect's approach, on the contrary, is actually rather unique. The Witcher would probably be the closest example of somewhat resembling it.

 

Agree to disagree then. Dragon Age doesn't even come close to matching the depth and complexity of lore and setting that The Elder Scrolls provides. For one, TES is a lot older and thus has a lot more lore. Secondly, TES is a lot more realistic and complex in terms of nations, culture, conflicts, and disputes. Dragon Age is more like The Lord of the Rings in that its much more of a fairy tale and a story rather than anything remotely grounded in realism and rarely is it complex. Just read through the Imperial Library website and you can see the mythology, history, biases, and complexities that make TES truly unique and alien.

 

Dragon Age and Mass Effect are certainly different, but again I don't believe it's the storytelling devices that makes one better or worse. It's purely the characters, the protagonist, and the obstacles they must overcome that makes them interesting. The setting is just meant to compliment and enhance the story. Overall, I don't find Thedas to be that original or interesting. Perhaps as BioWare explores it more, they will change my mind.

 

I'm not playing DAI at all because it is in Thedas. I'm playing it because I'm curious to see the impact of my actions and how all these various characters will affect the game, as well as the Inquisitor. I find it interesting that many seem to think setting plays a role as the Dragon Age games have rarely ever taken setting into account at all. What you remember are the characters from DAO, not what color the grass was in Lothering.

[Razyx]

I am not a Marvel fan, so cannot appreciate the comparison fully, maybe, but I think of DA as more a "Game of Thrones, see the world from different perspectives" kind of thing (albeit over a longer period of time)....

 
Sorry, the Marvel thing was an exaggerated analogy, many heroes there that is almost impossible to know about all of them.
  

...Granted, we are only seeing one perspective in each story so maybe it's a poor analogy, but it's more about seeing different adventures in this same world. And since it's a fantasy setting, there are lots of adventures to be had. I don't doubt several other people are having adventures simultaneous to my Inquisitor (Hawke certainly seems to be, and I can think of a few characters from the books we may or may not meet who are). I don't consider my game heroes to be the only people of note in Thedas - others of note are mentioned all over Bioware DA canons of various kinds. Plus, our companions are experiencing their own versions of the story as well. 
 
I don't really see the problem or know what the "Marvel universe" problem is. Comics aren't really my think, sorry.

Yup, indeed I think it's great some adventures with different heroes, places, companions, and plots... but while we evolve in Thedas through a new body (inquisitor this time) the underlaying question is, why more than one hero?. I think there's no need, at least if you are thinking on a different way to closure the series.

Well Just speaking my mind

[Fardreamer]

The Elder Scrolls always have a new protagonist because the games always take place 100s of years apart, lol.  The time between Oblivion and Skyrim was a few hundred years.

 

Here's the thing, people... Many of us have NOT done the US.  There's just too many better endings to just die at end of the game.  If you did, that's great.  But I'd say the majority of people had their Warden go on to Awakening. 

 

Now, in DA:I, 2 of the most popular Love Interests are returning to play prominant roles.  That raises the logical question of:  "What Leliana's here?  Where the hell is her beloved and most cherished companion?"

 

See... the DA2 cliffhanger, is not the only reason people are asking for the Warden's return.  When we see his loved ones showing up in the game without him, we're left wondering where the hell he is.

[Revan Reborn]

The Elder Scrolls always have a new protagonist because the games always take place 100s of years apart, lol.  The time between Oblivion and Skyrim was a few hundred years.

 

Here's the thing, people... Many of us have NOT done the US.  There's just too many better endings to just die at end of the game.  If you did, that's great.  But I'd say the majority of people had their Warden go on to Awakening. 

 

Now, in DA:I, 2 of the most popular Love Interests are returning to play prominant roles.  That raises the logical question of:  "What Leliana's here?  Where the hell is her beloved and most cherished companion?"

 

See... the DA2 cliffhanger, is not the only reason people are asking for the Warden's return.  When we see his loved ones showing up in the game without him, we're left wondering where the hell he is.

The time span between Morrowind and Oblivion was 20 years. In fact, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion all took place in the Third Era under Emperor Uriel Septim VII. Skyrim was a massive leap forward in time due to the end of the Septim line leading to the Fourth Era, so it's really an exception to the rule. Not the standard.

 

I do agree that it was likely a minority who actually chose the ultimate sacrifice as their ending. This was partially because most of the options allowed the Warden to live, but because Awakening also encouraged the Warden to survive (Orlesian Warden was poorly written and executed).

 

It is rather strange how so many returning characters from DAO have significant roles when the main protagonist of DAO is nowhere to be found. Many misunderstand why we believe the Warden has a place. Not only is this an issue of geopolitical concern, but potential companions and love interests are also in the mix. Why wouldn't he be involved?

[Razored1313]

See... the DA2 cliffhanger, is not the only reason people are asking for the Warden's return. When we see his loved ones showing up in the game without him, we're left wondering where the hell he is.

actually that is the only reason I'm here, I'm completely content to move on as long as they explain why they decided to bring the warden back instead of just leaving him with a satisfying ending, which they did until DA2s ending...bet whoever wrote that last line is kicking themselves XD.

[Lee T]

W hile my warden going through the eluvian with Morrigan is all I need as closure, I understand the issue.

But I woulnd't want to be the bioware guy in charge of such a comeback. It's a trifecta for horror.

First the story would have to be good and somehow be able to reflect the personnalities of our very varied wardens.

Second the warden would either have to be silent without it looking weird or they would have to find a voice, and we're back to our varied personnalities.

Finally, you' ll probably remember the nightmare with ME3 that couldn't import correctly the Shep face made in ME1/ ME2. It probably would be hell to render the old face in the new completely unrelated engine and character making tool.

Seems like one hell of a thankless job (unless it's perfeclty done and that person will be covered in laurels).

[PapaSmurfer]

This is in response to OP because I don't really feel like reading through the rest of this thread (maybe some of this has already been said):

 

I loved the idea of the Warden, but that's all the Warden was. The Warden wasn't really a specific character. He or she wasn't much more than the player's hand. If, for instance, you were to look at the Warden and compare them (him or her starts sounding sloppy) to Shepard from Mass Effect, you'd see a blank slate versus a more defined character. The Warden is hardly tangible, and so it's difficult to include them when they really aren't much of anything at all -- character-wise. Yes, they stopped the blight, but was it the Warden? The character? Or was it the player? Hawke had a voice and developed a personality that other characters reacted to; the Warden was much harder to define.

 

Beyond that, I don't even know whether we should expect the Warden to have a place in this story, hero or not. It might just be a bit too coincidental; if it occurred, it could come off as lip-service to the playerbase and nothing more. See, when I think of heroes - true, honest-to-god-holy-sardinecan heroes, I think of people who have accomplished the unimaginable. I think of people like Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Those guys did something that was monumental. It was more amazing than many of us can believe. Honestly, what they did relative to us is greater than what the Warden did relative to Thedas. Blights had been fought and beaten down before; Arch Demons had been vanquished. But you know what? No one before Buzz or Neil had ever, EVER stepped foot on the moon. Not a one. And it isn't as if it was some easy "anyone can do it" task. No, they were heroes: world heroes. Not celebrities (though they surely could have been, had they so desired), but heroes. And the thing is, they weren't involved in everything that we did after they stepped foot on the moon. They weren't presidents or secret cult leaders (as far as I know). They lapsed into the realm of relative obscurity -- not complete obscurity, mind you, but it wasn't as if they ran around like Brad Pitt or Tom Hanks. 

 

The reason I bring that up is because I wanted to try to explain that heroes, even if they're your heroes - ones that you make and play in RPGs - aren't involved in everything. They aren't everywhere. They don't pop up like curious whack-a-moles whenever there's trouble. They do what they need to do, and, maybe if they're lucky, they get a nice long nap.

[berrieh]

Whether people thought Awakening was a mistake or not, it's unanimous that it was an amazing expansion, especially if you imported your Hero of Ferelden. As far as the ultimate sacrifice being a mistake, BioWare never suggested that. It clearly was meant to be an option but not prevent them from doing more tasks with the Warden which was always part of their plan.

 

 

I like Awakening, and I didn't even have my canon Warden do the US (I went DR, with Alistair both crowned and as my mister since I was a City Elf and couldn't marry him), though I have had some Wardens do it in my playthroughs. But a whole new game with the character would be a slap in the face to anyone who did the US and basically make it canon that the Warden did not do the US. A full game with a random Warden couldn't just use the Warden-Commander and be the same game. A stand-alone expansion doesn't have these problems, but a full DA:I-sized game is untenable. 

 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Bioware saw it as a mistake - I'm saying I do. 

 

You sure about that? The Elder Scrolls comes to mind right at the top of my head. It has been in the same universe since 1994 and they always have a new protagonist with each new installment. Dragon Age is hardly original in this respect. Lets not also forget KotOR, which had Revan as the protagonist in one and the Exile as the protagonist in the sequel. Still the same galaxy. Mass Effect's approach, on the contrary, is actually rather unique. The Witcher would probably be the closest example of somewhat resembling it.

 

Revan Reborn, on 03 Nov 2014 - 8:44 PM, said:

 

The Elder Scrolls games don't have main characters, really, and only 2 have been games that are available to all audiences, and those two were 100 years apart (Oblivion and Skyrim). I never feel like Bethesda games have characters at all. Plots, yes, but not characters. Also they aren't all in the same time period. KOTOR is a really old game, and it was primarily a PC game. I never finished it. There are LOADS of modern games with single-character stories that continue, though most are pre-defined characters, of course. ME is also unique, but why can't the concepts of ME and the concepts of DA co-exist? Why should DA become ME? Maybe you'll get a new character to follow in the new ME reboot. DA is the only game with characterization and real story that I can play on my console and continue the story through different protagonists. 

 

Anyway, maybe there are hundreds of PC-only games that fit the criteria I mentioned. I have a gaming PC but it rarely gets use and I certainly can't make it through a long RPG on it (I have Skyrim on the PC and 360 and almost 3x as many hours on the 360). I was thinking of all the stories of characters you can play in modern cross-plat video games, not necessarily all RPGs, of course. 

 

 

 

Agree to disagree then. Dragon Age doesn't even come close to matching the depth and complexity of lore and setting that The Elder Scrolls provides. For one, TES is a lot older and thus has a lot more lore. Secondly, TES is a lot more realistic and complex in terms of nations, culture, conflicts, and disputes. Dragon Age is more like The Lord of the Rings in that its much more of a fairy tale and a story rather than anything remotely grounded in realism and rarely is it complex. Just read through the Imperial Library website and you can see the mythology, history, biases, and complexities that make TES truly unique and alien.

 

 

I like TES games, but they don't really tell stories. The lore is also impressive, but I don't think of Tamriel as being a more interesting or real setting than Thedas. I have no interest in, say, reading novels and graphic novels about Tamriel, because there are no characters there I care about and no issues and factions that interest me. The companions - and seeing them through different eyes - is a really unique thing in DA. I love the idea of meeting Leliana as 3 different people, seeing different sides. I love how Cullen went from a throwaway character to a minor character to an advisor. I find Thedas a fairly realistic fantasy setting, more-so than Tamriel for mirroring our own world. I find it to be more Westeros/Essos than Lord of the Rings (I hate LoTR really) and it reminds me a lot of a pen and paper RPG setting. I can see many adventures in Thedas. The factions seem more realistic to me, for one thing. I do love Skyrim and have nearly 1000 hours in it, though, and I've read through the Imperial Library website many a time. I just find Thedas more compelling. 

 

 

Dragon Age and Mass Effect are certainly different, but again I don't believe it's the storytelling devices that makes one better or worse. It's purely the characters, the protagonist, and the obstacles they must overcome that makes them interesting. The setting is just meant to compliment and enhance the story. Overall, I don't find Thedas to be that original or interesting. Perhaps as BioWare explores it more, they will change my mind.

 

To each their own. The setting is my favorite part of the game - the characters contribute to that, but not the PCs as much as the companions and smaller characters that just turn up in different ways. I like the way people change in different settings.

 

I'm not playing DAI at all because it is in Thedas. I'm playing it because I'm curious to see the impact of my actions and how all these various characters will affect the game, as well as the Inquisitor. I find it interesting that many seem to think setting plays a role as the Dragon Age games have rarely ever taken setting into account at all. What you remember are the characters from DAO, not what color the grass was in Lothering.

 

 

I don't really think of "color of grass" as setting, but rather things like "unique take on Mages, interesting version of elves, compelling religions, interesting countries and factions and recurring characters that align with them," etc as part of the setting. Again, not set dressing, but the time and place, including its atmosphere and the effect my choices have had on the setting. Maybe you simply consider setting to be a much more limited thing than many do. 

 

 
Sorry, the Marvel thing was an exaggerated analogy, many heroes there that is almost impossible to know about all of them.
  

Yup, indeed I think it's great some adventures with different heroes, places, companions, and plots... but while we evolve in Thedas through a new body (inquisitor this time) the underlaying question is, why more than one hero?. I think there's no need, at least if you are thinking on a different way to closure the series.

Well Just speaking my mind 

 

A different hero is needed for a different situation. Here's the thing with ME - I had to be relatively consistent in my choices OR headcannon some reason to change. This time, I get to start fresh. My inquisitor can be anyone. I feel like ME is great, but there's no denying Shepard accumulates a lot of baggage throughout three games. The DA method of getting to inhabit the same world but through new eyes just feels different to me. 

 

Here's the thing, people... Many of us have NOT done the US.  There's just too many better endings to just die at end of the game.  If you did, that's great.  But I'd say the majority of people had their Warden go on to Awakening. 

 

Now, in DA:I, 2 of the most popular Love Interests are returning to play prominant roles.  That raises the logical question of:  "What Leliana's here?  Where the hell is her beloved and most cherished companion?"

 

See... the DA2 cliffhanger, is not the only reason people are asking for the Warden's return.  When we see his loved ones showing up in the game without him, we're left wondering where the hell he is.

 

For the record, my canon Warden is a City Elf who did the DR to save herself and her love Alistar. She became his consort, and he was King. But I find it quite reasonable that, in the world of Thedas, their happy ending was short lived and she had to leave his side for reasons beyond their control. If the loved ones forgot the warden, I could see the issue, but I see no reason we're led to believe any hero in Thedas or anyone in this story would be so lucky as to get to stay with their companions forever. I never assumed the LIs had true permanence. I guess that's me. 

[wcholcombe]

TES is a good world. Lots of lore. But none of the games feel at all connected. They are all vastly different worlds by feel and setting. I have enjoyed the last 4 games fabulously, but to casually disregard the DA world as shallow and artificial is to do it a disservice, there is a lot of depth and realism to the game.

[wcholcombe]

The Elder Scrolls always have a new protagonist because the games always take place 100s of years apart, lol. The time between Oblivion and Skyrim was a few hundred years.

Here's the thing, people... Many of us have NOT done the US. There's just too many better endings to just die at end of the game. If you did, that's great. But I'd say the majority of people had their Warden go on to Awakening.

Now, in DA:I, 2 of the most popular Love Interests are returning to play prominant roles. That raises the logical question of: "What Leliana's here? Where the hell is her beloved and most cherished companion?"

See... the DA2 cliffhanger, is not the only reason people are asking for the Warden's return. When we see his loved ones showing up in the game without him, we're left wondering where the hell he is.

As far as the love interest bit, this is the weakest argument. They had a fight off screen and splitt. You are at best the 2nd person lelianna has been in love with. As for morrigan, she very easily and casually left you after the DR, I doubt she is that heavily invested in the relationship.

[Revan Reborn]

 

I like Awakening, and I didn't even have my canon Warden do the US (I went DR, with Alistair both crowned and as my mister since I was a City Elf and couldn't marry him), though I have had some Wardens do it in my playthroughs. But a whole new game with the character would be a slap in the face to anyone who did the US and basically make it canon that the Warden did not do the US. A full game with a random Warden couldn't just use the Warden-Commander and be the same game. A stand-alone expansion doesn't have these problems, but a full DA:I-sized game is untenable. 

 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Bioware saw it as a mistake - I'm saying I do. 

 

 

The Elder Scrolls games don't have main characters, really, and only 2 have been games that are available to all audiences, and those two were 100 years apart (Oblivion and Skyrim). I never feel like Bethesda games have characters at all. Plots, yes, but not characters. Also they aren't all in the same time period. KOTOR is a really old game, and it was primarily a PC game. I never finished it. There are LOADS of modern games with single-character stories that continue, though most are pre-defined characters, of course. ME is also unique, but why can't the concepts of ME and the concepts of DA co-exist? Why should DA become ME? Maybe you'll get a new character to follow in the new ME reboot. DA is the only game with characterization and real story that I can play on my console and continue the story through different protagonists. 

 

Anyway, maybe there are hundreds of PC-only games that fit the criteria I mentioned. I have a gaming PC but it rarely gets use and I certainly can't make it through a long RPG on it (I have Skyrim on the PC and 360 and almost 3x as many hours on the 360). I was thinking of all the stories of characters you can play in modern cross-plat video games, not necessarily all RPGs, of course. 

 

 

 

I like TES games, but they don't really tell stories. The lore is also impressive, but I don't think of Tamriel as being a more interesting or real setting than Thedas. I have no interest in, say, reading novels and graphic novels about Tamriel, because there are no characters there I care about and no issues and factions that interest me. The companions - and seeing them through different eyes - is a really unique thing in DA. I love the idea of meeting Leliana as 3 different people, seeing different sides. I love how Cullen went from a throwaway character to a minor character to an advisor. I find Thedas a fairly realistic fantasy setting, more-so than Tamriel for mirroring our own world. I find it to be more Westeros/Essos than Lord of the Rings (I hate LoTR really) and it reminds me a lot of a pen and paper RPG setting. I can see many adventures in Thedas. The factions seem more realistic to me, for one thing. I do love Skyrim and have nearly 1000 hours in it, though, and I've read through the Imperial Library website many a time. I just find Thedas more compelling. 

 

 

 

To each their own. The setting is my favorite part of the game - the characters contribute to that, but not the PCs as much as the companions and smaller characters that just turn up in different ways. I like the way people change in different settings.

 

 

I don't really think of "color of grass" as setting, but rather things like "unique take on Mages, interesting version of elves, compelling religions, interesting countries and factions and recurring characters that align with them," etc as part of the setting. Again, not set dressing, but the time and place, including its atmosphere and the effect my choices have had on the setting. Maybe you simply consider setting to be a much more limited thing than many do. 

 

Again, I'd wager very few actually committed the ultimate sacrifice. Even if they did, a large portion of the BioWare fan base has multiple world states and playthroughs, so I doubt it would cause that much of an uproar honestly.

 

I won't not say that at all. On the contrary, every protagonist in TES has been crucial. Especially with Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. In Morrowind, you are the reincarnation of a Dunmer general who was loved by his people. It is your destiny to defeat Dagoth Ur and to bring an end to the Tribunal, of which was created through lies and greed by taking Lokhan's heart. In Oblivion, you become the Champion of Cyrodiil, Divine Crusader, and the Daedric Prince of Madness (Sheogorath). In Skyrim, you are the last Dragonborn who is destined to defeat Alduin, the World Eater and first dragon. These stories and resolutions are all canon and add to the history and lore of TES.

 

KotOR was not "primarily a PC game." It was BioWare's first game on console (original Xbox) and they have been a console-centric developer since. You'll find most of the fans who played KotOR I and II purchased it on the Xbox. My point about DA is there is a lot it can learn from ME in terms of storytelling. DA is always limited due to constantly jumping to new protagonists, leaving the games loosely connected, your choices having less impact, and making the world seem more disconnected.

 

You are doing yourself a disservice then. Whether we look at the Dragonborn Emperors ranging from Saint Alessia, the Reman Dynasty, or the Septim Dynasty, that's only the political dynamics of Cyrodiil alone. TES has many diverse and interesting races of which are all different and expansive in their cultures. Most of the races believe in the Nine Divines, although their religious practice is different and even the names and stories for the various Divines differ.

 

I'd argue the books and the biases of the authors are what make TES lore superior to any of fantasy RPG on the market. Whether you are reading about the creation of Mundus and how the various Divines created Nirn. Whether you read about Hjalti Earlybeard/Tiber Septim/Talos and his conquest to unite all of Tamriel. The mysterious disappearance of the Dwemer and all of their highly advanced machinations and ruins. The mystery behind Yokuda, it's disappearance, the brutal yet honor-driven system of the Redguards, and their unrivaled skills in combat and swordsmanship. I can go on about TES for hours and hours. There is so much depth and complexity it's mind-boggling really. Dragon Age is great, but it's lore and setting don't even graze the surface of TES.

 

The setting certainly contributes to the experience, but it's ultimately the characters that make it all worth while. That's why I love BioWare games and have been playing them since KotOR I. Whether I was annoyed by Carth, conflicted with Bastila, or listened to the incredible stories of Jolee Bindo, it was those characters and the interactions that always made BioWare such a great RPG developer. The fact that it was Star Wars was obviously icing on the cake.

 

I see your point. Overall I found Ferelden to be rather uninteresting and generic in terms of copying Medieval Europe. What made DAO so amazing, however, was the Darkspawn conflict and the purpose of the Wardens. Visiting Orzammar was nice as well, although the Deep Roads were clearly a LOTR rip-off. Calenhad Lake was probably the most interesting and unique aspect of DAO in my opinion in terms of setting. Kirkwall was a much better place to take a game due to its history of slavery and the corruption of the city.

 

We'll have to see how being primarily in wilderness will change the tone and setting in DAI.

[berrieh]

Again, I'd wager very few actually committed the ultimate sacrifice. Even if they did, a large portion of the BioWare fan base has multiple world states and playthroughs, so I doubt it would cause that much of an uproar honestly.

 

I won't not say that at all. On the contrary, every protagonist in TES has been crucial. Especially with Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. In Morrowind, you are the reincarnation of a Dunmer general who was loved by his people. It is your destiny to defeat Dagoth Ur and to bring an end to the Tribunal, of which was created through lies and greed by taking Lokhan's heart. In Oblivion, you become the Champion of Cyrodiil, Divine Crusader, and the Daedric Prince of Madness (Sheogorath). In Skyrim, you are the last Dragonborn who is destined to defeat Alduin, the World Eater and first dragon. These stories and resolutions are all canon and add to the history and lore of TES.

 

Revan Reborn, on 03 Nov 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

 

First of all, I don't think most people who bought/played the game have multiple world states, nor do I think most people who new games are marketed to have multiple world states in Origin. They could definitely make them with the Keep. DA:O was a success, but it was already 5 years ago. At this point, to return to an old PC character would severely limit the market. I don't doubt most people on these forums have multiple world states, of course. 

 

What you say for TES have to do with plot, not character or setting. I didn't disagree each game had a plot exactly - I disagreed that it built a more compelling world and setting than Thedas and that it built any kind of real character. 

 

KotOR was not "primarily a PC game." It was BioWare's first game on console (original Xbox) and they have been a console-centric developer since. You'll find most of the fans who played KotOR I and II purchased it on the Xbox. My point about DA is there is a lot it can learn from ME in terms of storytelling. DA is always limited due to constantly jumping to new protagonists, leaving the games loosely connected, your choices having less impact, and making the world seem more disconnected.

 

Everyone I've spoken to about Kotor has either played it on a mobile device (I've tried that too) or PC. Didn't know it even sold on Xbox. Fair enough. Still a VERY old game by game standards. DA:O is an old game already - I wouldn't go back past that or ME1 for any sort of data on game types. An Xbox is two console generations away by now. 

 

My point about DA is that it is a more interesting structure from ME and that it doesn't need to "learn" anything from ME because it does the "continuous world choices" better through multiple protagonists. That has been my view so far, albeit limited to just two games. I don't feel the world seems disconnected at all. I feel the story is made stronger by multiple protagonists - instead of a straight line, it is a more interesting narrative structure with more adaptability and possibility but still a tight narrative connection. 

 

I like ME, but I love DA. I don't want DA to lose what makes it DA. 

 

You are doing yourself a disservice then. Whether we look at the Dragonborn Emperors ranging from Saint Alessia, the Reman Dynasty, or the Septim Dynasty, that's only the political dynamics of Cyrodiil alone. TES has many diverse and interesting races of which are all different and expansive in their cultures. Most of the races believe in the Nine Divines, although their religious practice is different and even the names and stories for the various Divines differ.

 

I'd argue the books and the biases of the authors are what make TES lore superior to any of fantasy RPG on the market. Whether you are reading about the creation of Mundus and how the various Divines created Nirn. Whether you read about Hjalti Earlybeard/Tiber Septim/Talos and his conquest to unite all of Tamriel. The mysterious disappearance of the Dwemer and all of their highly advanced machinations and ruins. The mystery behind Yokuda, it's disappearance, the brutal yet honor-driven system of the Redguards, and their unrivaled skills in combat and swordsmanship. I can go on about TES for hours and hours. There is so much depth and complexity it's mind-boggling really. Dragon Age is great, but it's lore and setting don't even graze the surface of TES.

 

I loved Skyrim, and I liked Oblivion. Couldn't play Morrowind, as either the Xbox port is crap or the game was actually crap and people just don't admit it. I think Bethesda does exploration very well (Fallout 3 also an example of this, with a more compelling setting). I think the books are a neat touch. I've read most of them. I'm not "missing out" - I merely find the setting much more generic and uninteresting, and I don't find a lot of the knowledge in the books reflected in the world around them per se. I just have a differing opinion and find Thedas a more compelling setting. The way the setting is crafted - not the world to explore, but the fantasy setting - in TES games is not nearly as compelling to me. The political bodies, the factions, the religions... they don't seem as real to me. I think Bioware does a really great job with making Thedas very real. I think Bethesda does a good job with creating sandboxes to play in and writing lore as a backdrop. YMMV.

 

 

The setting certainly contributes to the experience, but it's ultimately the characters that make it all worth while. That's why I love BioWare games and have been playing them since KotOR I. Whether I was annoyed by Carth, conflicted with Bastila, or listened to the incredible stories of Jolee Bindo, it was those characters and the interactions that always made BioWare such a great RPG developer. The fact that it was Star Wars was obviously icing on the cake.

 

I see your point. Overall I found Ferelden to be rather uninteresting and generic in terms of copying Medieval Europe. What made DAO so amazing, however, was the Darkspawn conflict and the purpose of the Wardens. Visiting Orzammar was nice as well, although the Deep Roads were clearly a LOTR rip-off. Calenhad Lake was probably the most interesting and unique aspect of DAO in my opinion in terms of setting. Kirkwall was a much better place to take a game due to its history of slavery and the corruption of the city.

 

We'll have to see how being primarily in wilderness will change the tone and setting in DAI.

 

 

I agree the characters matter more in Bioware games. I don't think anyone would dispute the NPC characters/companions matter greatly. I think their writing is strengthened when the PC character changes as well. I find it more compelling to see Leliana through new eyes, for example, since she has greatly changed. 

 

I found DA2 a more compelling story (it had other issues) than DA:O personally. The darkspawn were a great place to start - they are compelling. Some mystery still surrounds them, which is cool. But I find the mage/templar conflict more interesting than the darkspawn conflict because the darkspawn conflict is very simple - you kill the archdemon, you end the Blight. Awakening and The Architect added some interesting depth. But, generally, there is little room to see an array of sides on the darkspawn. They are simply destruction. 

 

When I say "setting" I don't mean just the way places look. The purpose and formation of the Wardens is part of the fantasy setting. Factions are part of the setting. Games with a historical setting, for example, carry all of the political and cultural facets of that setting within their "setting." You seem to be reducing setting to level design. "Wilderness" isn't exactly what I mean by setting - I mean the changing, reactive world (based on decisions) as well as the context of recent historical, cultural, religions, and faction events. The nature of mages, for instance, is part of the setting - it is consistent throughout Thedas where magic comes from and what mages are - and a consistent problem to be resolved with multiple plots. 

 

I think the backstory of Ferelden is very interesting - a small country with Barbarian heritage that rebelled from Orlais, and it's vast differences with Orlais are very interesting to me, more so than say "Empire vs. Skyrim" but, again, mileage may vary. 

 

Anyway, this is likely getting off-track - my point is that Dragon Age is able to craft stronger stories through multiple PCs, as far as I can tell, and the stories are allowed to move on. That's the thing with ME - It was all about the Reapers, really. I don't want DA to be all about the darkspawn. I liked Mass Effect, but it was ultimately one story so far (the new one will be different, with a different protagonist) just separated into three games. Dragon Age has been two stories so far, and we are getting a third. I'm much more interested in new stories in the same world. I don't want to be tied to the Warden or Hawke forever. I want to continue to move on, and I don't think there's something to learn from ME in terms of keeping the same character - it has its own limitations. I think it's cool they evolved the character over 3 games and fully enjoyed it - that is unique, but so is evolving the same world with new characters. Both ME and DA do things other games don't by letting you make choices in different ways. I just disagree that ME is superior to DA; if anything, I think the opposite has been shown - You carry a lot of baggage with you as Shepard, but you get to start each DA game fresh. 

 

I also feel like having new protagonists makes the possibility for changes and improvements greater in the DA series AND allows the games to be more marketable and grow the market - these two things are likely greater reasons why the game will move on than anything I say about story structure. DA:I will likely be played by many people who don't even have a Warden character. 

 

Edited for lines being mixed up, sorry

[Aldrick]

It will be hard to include the Warden, especially mine since my canon Warden was pretty evil.  (Pro-Elf, Pro-Mage, Anti-Templar, Anti-Chantry... did lots of bad things in pursuit of those objectives.)  

Since he was an Elven Mage, he left Avernus alive and told him to continue his unethical research, all in the hopes of AVOIDING the Calling himself and learning to control the taint within him.  

So, I am somewhat opposed to a Calling DLC, which would effectively force my Warden to die.  He left Avernus alive specifically to avoid this fate, and would likely allow himself to go full out Ghoul before he went into the Deep Roads and gave it all up.  He would be willing to do anything to avoid that fate, up to and including killing Morrigan (his love interest) and her child with Alistair.

[Navoletti]

wardens alive need a resolution with a scene,if they choice the way of mention is clear they ignore wardens fans.

[veeia]

I think its obvious they need to (and plan to) resolve the threads they left dangling in DA:A/2 with regard to the Warden. So I am sympathetic to the people who want her to be in the game because of that, and people who are going "lolol get over ur warden" are being kind of obnoxious, because in some regards, Bioware didn't let us.

But I am still pretty firm that I don't want to see her or hear from her, because either they would have to put a massive amount of resources into making that work (unlikely because its unfair to the current protagonist/story to devote that to her, and wouldn't have the same emotional impact to a larger audience that it would to us) or it's going to be a generic, reductionist thing. I don't think they can employ a simple algorithm to figure out how any given Warden would respond in a situation or what their views are or what their personality is.

DA:O may have had lots of choices with good/neutral/bad attached to them, but we were encouraged to think of those situationally, not as part of a bigger morality slider, so people's choices are all over the place. And why would we expect them to be the same 12 years later than they were during a 1 year period when they were very young and had just gone through a huge change and had big responsibilities thrown on them?

What I am hoping for in DA:I:

-mention of the Warden from Leli & Morrigan, explanations of what their current relationship is, if any with the Warden and how it's progressed since DA:O

-explanation for why the Warden disappeared and what they're doing. I am assuming they are outside of Orlais/Feraldan---maybe the Anderfels? Did they leave intentionally but secretly, or were they taken? Just something to justify Cass's certainty in da2, otherwise that undermines her character and also makes that ending annoying

--some sort of impact on the story...maybe the Warden's actions free up resources, or discover something

---some sort of sense of closure..even if its just "and she went back to being commander/queen/whateve"

I expect it to be vague, but enough so that we can fill in our own details and the Warden feels like an important part of the world.

What do you guys think? What would be *enough* for you with an offscreen Warden, or is there no way you see to make it work?