1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Helios969]

 I generally support government regulation, and generally reject the idea of freedom as a right, especially in a world where some people are walking nukes. As it relates to this topic, I do think magic/mages are useful, but it needs to be regulated so that the right kinds are contributing to society and the wrong kinds are not corrupting it (and if the wrong kinds do get out, it will be few enough to easily deal with).

 

I stand with upholding the status-quo, but I would offer more freedoms to mages that demonstrate they can handle them responsibly, which would be determined by the headmasters at the Circle of Magi.

 

I more or less agree, but some minor changes are needed.  I mean the status-quo got us in this mess.  I'm not sure I want drug attics watching over our nuclear arsenal.

 

Nice avatar btw.  Should I call you "discount, double-check?" (Yep, Packer fan.)

[Lumix19]

I more or less agree, but some minor changes are needed.  I mean the status-quo got us in this mess.  I'm not sure I want drug attics watching over our nuclear arsenal.

 

Nice avatar btw.  Should I call you "discount, double-check?" (Yep, Packer fan.)

Indeed. I mean surely the people watching over the mages are those who understand them best? Not just being able to relate to them but actually understanding their limitations as well as their strengths and weaknesses.

[Helios969]

I'm not sure understanding really matters...anyway how can you really quantify whether someone understands another?  Simply because they say so?  Someone like Meredith would smile and nod and work her way up the latter because she was obsessed with keeping Mages in check.  What is needed is a way to keep those in the position of oversight from abusing their power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

i'm trying to put this as nicely as i can, i don't believe you have a firm grasp of the subject i'm talking about. do some researcg understand what systematic oppression is. (it's a big subject to large for to explain in one post) Once you understand the topic if you like we can continue this in PM's.

 

but i'm not going to continue to talk to someone about systematic oppression mages face, when they believe because mages aren't being tortured everyday it's not occurring.  

This is nothing than pro-mage propaganda based prety much on nothing oppression isn't in case in any way because mages aren't harmed (save for those dangerous) in any way pretty much it is otherwise mages have much better terms of living that most peoples in thedas so term oppression is simple out.It is like saying that peoples are oppressed because they have to follow law... 

So read again what i have said before.

[Lumix19]

I'm not sure understanding really matters...anyway how can you really quantify whether someone understands another?  Simply because they say so?  Someone like Meredith would smile and nod and work her way up the latter because she was obsessed with keeping Mages in check.  What is needed is a way to keep those in the position of oversight from abusing their power.

Really? I think understanding is pretty crucial. A person who doesn't abuse their position but doesn't understand the limitations of magic could very easily do the same thing Meredith did and think they're completely in the right. A person who thinks they're in the right is just as, if not more dangerous than someone who abuses their power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Really? I think understanding is pretty crucial. A person who doesn't abuse their position but doesn't understand the limitations of magic could very easily do the same thing Meredith did and think they're completely in the right. A person who thinks they're in the right is just as, if not more dangerous than someone who abuses their power.

Meredith understanding of magic was great she was right about most things so i don't see any problem here.

[Lumix19]

This is nothing than pro-mage propaganda based prety much on nothing oppression isn't in case in any way because mages aren't harmed (save for those dangerous) in any way pretty much it is otherwise mages have much better terms of living that most peoples in thedas so term oppression is simple out.It is like saying that peoples are oppressed because they have to follow law... 

So read again what i have said before.

Pro-mage propaganda? Really? The obvious oppression isn't something read about from a codex but actually visibly seen during the Magi Origin in DA:O and in the book Asunder. I fail to see how that is "pro-mage propaganda". Also most people in Thedas aren't locked in cages and if that's the law, it's a pretty oppressive one. Also being forced to follow an oppressive law is oppression, just saying.

[Lumix19]

Meredith understanding of magic was great she was right about most things so i don't see any problem here.

Exactly what was she right about?

[Tevinter Soldier]

This is nothing than pro-mage propaganda based prety much on nothing oppression isn't in case in any way because mages aren't harmed (save for those dangerous) in any way pretty much it is otherwise mages have much better terms of living that most peoples in thedas so term oppression is simple out.It is like saying that peoples are oppressed because they have to follow law... 

So read again what i have said before.

 

what would be the point of re-reading what you've said? you either don't understand the concepts i'm talking about or intentionally ignoring it to antagonise me.

the systematic oppression of mages is not up for debate.

 

one of the key points of systematic oppression throughout history is that it is legal. that's what makes it systematic.

[Lumix19]

what would be the point of re-reading what you've said? you either don't understand the concepts i'm talking about or intentionally ignoring it to antagonise me.

the systematic oppression of mages is not up for debate.

 

one of the key points of systematic oppression throughout history is that it is legal. that's what makes it systematic.

I concur. The fact that the mages are oppressed is undeniable. Whether that is ethically right is a different matter.

[Helios969]

Really? I think understanding is pretty crucial. A person who doesn't abuse their position but doesn't understand the limitations of magic could very easily do the same thing Meredith did and think they're completely in the right. A person who thinks they're in the right is just as, if not more dangerous than someone who abuses their power.

I think your right but also wrong.  Understanding is a good thing it's just not something you can consistently rely on in large organizations.  Again how do you quantify it? For that matter how do you even define it?  Most importantly who decides who is understanding and who is not?  You see what I'm getting at?  It's an abstract concept with a wholly subjective interpretation.

[Lumix19]

I think your right but also wrong.  Understanding is a good thing it's just not something you can consistently rely on in large organizations.  Again how do you quantify it? For that matter how do you even define it?  Most importantly who decides who is understanding and who is not?  You see what I'm getting at?  It's an abstract concept with a wholly subjective interpretation.

Indeed and I agree, it is difficult. But then reading people is subjective. Even finding somebody who won't abuse their power is difficult because you can never be sure they won't change. I tend to believe that if you live long enough with people then you'll grow both to understand them but also to love them - I'm pretty much ripping off Orson Scott Card there.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pro-mage propaganda? Really? The obvious oppression isn't something read about from a codex but actually visibly seen during the Magi Origin in DA:O and in the book Asunder. I fail to see how that is "pro-mage propaganda". Also most people in Thedas aren't locked in cages and if that's the law, it's a pretty oppressive one. Also being forced to follow an oppressive law is oppression, just saying.

"Cages"? yeah i think i will stay with pro-mage propaganda.Mages aren't locked in any cages mages are imprisoned and not because peoples see them as worse or inferior only as security measure they live in best conditions in thedas and have rights they just got different treatment for same reason bear and cat are treated differently.There is no "oppressive law" at least no more "oppressive" than our current save for harsher punishments for breaking law but it is in case for everyone.

 

 

Exactly what was she right about?

About mages pretty much even her suspicions toward orsino.

 

 

 

what would be the point of re-reading what you've said? you either don't understand the concepts i'm talking about or intentionally ignoring it to antagonise me.

the systematic oppression of mages is not up for debate.

 

one of the key points of systematic oppression throughout history is that it is legal. that's what makes it systematic.

Point would be that you can't claim any oppression if there is no oppression at least not supported by law mages have rights ,free speech and great life conditions (better than most) and aren't dehumanized by system that tells they have gift that is also curse any abuses are pretty much causes of corruption not system.

[MisterJB]

Exactly what was she right about?

Exactly what she was wrong about in the matter of limitations of magic?

[Tevinter Soldier]

I concur. The fact that the mages are oppressed is undeniable. Whether that is ethically right is a different matter.

 

I would say even the ethics can't really be argued. it's whether its necessary given the state of the world and the potential threat magi pose.

 

I side on the fact that simply many seek to deny the oppression exists or pretend its justified, suggest's its necessity is also suspect.

[MisterJB]

Indeed and I agree, it is difficult. But then reading people is subjective. Even finding somebody who won't abuse their power is difficult because you can never be sure they won't change. I tend to believe that if you live long enough with people then you'll grow both to understand them but also to love them - I'm pretty much ripping off Orson Scott Card there.

I'm going with Shale on this one.

Familiarity breeds contempt. That's probably why so many marriages fail.

[Lumix19]

"Cages"? yeah i think i will stay with pro-mage propaganda.Mages aren't locked in any cages mages are imprisoned and not because peoples see them as worse or inferior only as security measure they live in best conditions in thedas and have rights they just got different treatment for same reason bear and cat are treated differently.There is no "oppressive law" at least no more "oppressive" than our current save for harsher punishments for breaking law but it is in case for everyone.

 

 

About mages pretty much even her suspicions toward orsino.

 

 

 

Point would be that you can't claim any oppression if there is no oppression at least not supported by law mages have rights ,free speech and great life conditions (better than most) and aren't dehumanized by system that tells they have gift that is also curse any abuses are pretty much causes of corruption not system.

1.) Yes mages are locked in cages. It happens right at the beginning of Asunder when a female mage gets imprisoned. It happened to Cole too, that's pretty much how he died.

2.) I'll give you Orsino but I didn't see any other Circle mages using blood magic.

3.) Exactly what rights are we talking here? Additionally I wouldn't say the exactly have free speech, and even if they do who are they going to say it too? They aren't allowed to leave the Circle. Yeah they pretty much are dehumanized, outside of Tevinter magic is seen as a curse, not a gift.

[Helios969]

Familiarity breeds contempt. That's probably why so many marry and then get divorced!

[KaiserShep]

 I tend to believe that if you live long enough with people then you'll grow both to understand them but also to love them - I'm pretty much ripping off Orson Scott Card there.

 

I appreciate a good dose of irony, myself.

[berrieh]

1.) Yes mages are locked in cages. It happens right at the beginning of Asunder when a female mage gets imprisoned. It happened to Cole too, that's pretty much how he died.

 

The girl is in the dungeon. Because she not only set her house on fire and burned her family but was fairly happy about it (she is not remorseful and admits as much to Cole). She is dangerous and thus put in the dungeon. She's in a cell, not a cage. Cole is also not in a "cage" but a cell/pit. Now the Templars *did* forget about him and let him starve - that is a very real problem, I'll grant you, but he wasn't in a "cage" (like Sten was or the prisoner at Ostagard was). And again he was brought in under violent circumstances, though they seem much more reasonable than the girl's. 

 

We see more mundanes in cages in the games/stories than mages in cages. A cell is not a cage and does not carry the same connotation. Yes, mages are locked up, sometimes in deplorable circumstances - we should avoid that. This is certainly not a problem restricted to mage prisoners, though, and we've never seen it used on mages who were not suspected of violence. Granted, I think there's a better intake system for a girl who burned her family with her magic than "throw her in the dungeon" (because the girl could have been remorseful, in theory) but I think phrasing it as though she's in a cage is disingenuous. 

[Lumix19]

Exactly what she was wrong about in the matter of limitations of magic?

I don't mean she was wrong about the limitations of magic although I do question her understanding. I meant that she obviously didn't understand the people she was supposed to be looking after.

"But how can we allow them freedom when so many would use it to commit atrocities?"

"Tell me, Champion, that you have not seen with your own eyes what they can do, heard the lies of mages who seek power?"

 

When she says these things how many mages within her Circle could she honestly say seek power or commit atrocities?

[MisterJB]

In some ways, mages are opressed. In others, they are a privileged and protected class.

Argument over.

[Lumix19]

The girl is in the dungeon. Because she not only set her house on fire and burned her family but was fairly happy about it (she is not remorseful and admits as much to Cole). She is dangerous and thus put in the dungeon. She's in a cell, not a cage. Cole is also not in a "cage" but a cell/pit. Now the Templars *did* forget about him and let him starve - that is a very real problem, I'll grant you, but he wasn't in a "cage" (like Sten was or the prisoner at Ostagard was). And again he was brought in under violent circumstances, though they seem much more reasonable than the girl's. 

 

We see more mundanes in cages in the games/stories than mages in cages. A cell is not a cage and does not carry the same connotation. Yes, mages are locked up, sometimes in deplorable circumstances - we should avoid that. This is certainly not a problem restricted to mage prisoners, though, and we've never seen it used on mages who were not suspected of violence. Granted, I think there's a better intake system for a girl who burned her family with her magic than "throw her in the dungeon" (because the girl could have been remorseful, in theory) but I think phrasing it as though she's in a cage is disingenuous. 

I apologise I meant a cell.

[MisterJB]

I don't mean she was wrong about the limitations of magic although I do question her understanding. I meant that she obviously didn't understand the people she was supposed to be looking after.

"But how can we allow them freedom when so many would use it to commit atrocities?"

"Tell me, Champion, that you have not seen with your own eyes what they can do, heard the lies of mages who seek power?"

 

When she says these things how many mages within her Circle could she honestly say seek power or commit atrocities?

The First Enchanter, Grace, Huon, Eveline, etc.

 

At any rate, there needs to be a degree of empathy towards mages in the Circle. However, the Templars must never become too amiable to the point where they will trust too much and lower their defenses or they'll end up like Thrask. Ultimately, they must remember they are there to protect people from mages.

 

It's a fine line to walk.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.) Yes mages are locked in cages. It happens right at the beginning of Asunder when a female mage gets imprisoned. It happened to Cole too, that's pretty much how he died.

2.) I'll give you Orsino but I didn't see any other Circle mages using blood magic.

3.) Exactly what rights are we talking here? Additionally I wouldn't say the exactly have free speech, and even if they do who are they going to say it too? They aren't allowed to leave the Circle. Yeah they pretty much are dehumanized, outside of Tevinter magic is seen as a curse, not a gift.

1)From what i remember that girl killed her father or at least she did something not nice? Cole killed someone as well... also we don't know if this is accepted by law , result of corruption or just punishment for mages that broke the law.

2.You mean Grace and her extensive band of circle mages? Same for Houn and good porion of blood mages in last part of the game?   

3.They have free speach pretty much existence of libertarians proves that they even could vote to separate from chantry.And no they aren't dehumanized chantry paints mages in both lights positive and negative so system is clean here if something it are individuals who do that.