1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Tevinter Soldier]

"Cages"? yeah i think i will stay with pro-mage propaganda.Mages aren't locked in any cages mages are imprisoned and not because peoples see them as worse or inferior only as security measure they live in best conditions in thedas and have rights they just got different treatment for same reason bear and cat are treated differently.There is no "oppressive law" at least no more "oppressive" than our current save for harsher punishments for breaking law but it is in case for everyone.

 

 

About mages pretty much even her suspicions toward orsino.

 

 

 

Point would be that you can't claim any oppression if there is no oppression at least not supported by law mages have rights ,free speech and great life conditions (better than most) and aren't dehumanized by system that tells they have gift that is also curse any abuses are pretty much causes of corruption not system.

 

let's see: 

Freedom of movement? nope

freedom of association? nope

land rights? nope

can enter politics? nope

proper representation? nope?

ability to have their grievousnesses heard and resolved? nope

able to marry? nope

raise a family? nope

right to privacy? nope 

 

you seem to confuse freedom with wealth it's utterly incorrect.

all of these freedoms are denied to mages by law not corruption by law. it is oppression.

 

no one deny's mages are not poor like a farmer doesn't change the fact the farmer has more freedom and rights a concept you fail to understand.

 

your nonsense about the law is just that, you can't enshrine it in law and say. "öh well its legal, cant be oppressive".

the law is oppressive and the entire system is oppressive by its very nature.

 

Hence systematic oppression.  

[Lumix19]

In some ways, mages are opressed. In others, they are a privileged and protected class.

Argument over.

Indeed. So the real question is whether the oppression is necessary.

[Xilizhra]

The First Enchanter, Grace, Huon, Eveline, etc.

 

At any rate, there needs to be a degree of empathy towards mages in the Circle. However, the Templars must never become too amiable to the point where they will trust too much and lower their defenses or they'll end up like Thrask. Ultimately, they must remember they are there to protect people from mages.

 

It's a fine line to walk.
 

Thinking of it in those terms is part of the problem. I would say that their primary duty should be to protect mages from demons. Templars who have the task assigned to them of protecting mundanes from mages should be out there among said mundanes, watching over them; otherwise, the two duties get conflated despite being very different.

[Helios969]

Going back to the understanding theme...that is a two-way street.  Any who explore Meredith's dialogues will get a bit of insight into why she has adopted a ruthless stance.  For me it put her in a different light (she was still batsh*t crazy at the end.)  I got to believe Orsino would have some knowledge of her past.  The Mages also have a responsibility for understanding the position the Templars are in and should feel obligated to act responsibly.  I was 100% pro-mage going into DA2...less so upon completion, but if it taught me anything was there is no easy fix to this dynamic with plenty of blame to go around.

[MisterJB]

2.) I'll give you Orsino but I didn't see any other Circle mages using blood magic.

If you side with the Templars, nearly all mages summon demons and use blood magic.

And I don't buy they learned how to do that in the time it took for Hawke to walk across Lowtown and the Docks, they had to have been practicing it for some time.

 

 

3.) Exactly what rights are we talking here? Additionally I wouldn't say the exactly have free speech, and even if they do who are they going to say it too?

The right of association, for one. which is expressed through the formation of Fraternities.

As for free speech, well they could always shout in front on the king's palace. That's pretty much what Orsino did.

 

One of the nobles is act 3 says "Mages shouldn't be allowed to speak in public" which implies that they are normally allowed.

 

 

They aren't allowed to leave the Circle.

Except for Gregoir, Wynne, Rhys, Adrian, Ines, Finn, Mahren, etc.

They are allowed to leave the Circle. Rhys specifically says that they used to be allowed to visit Val-Royeaux to buy stuff. They just have to prove they're not a threat.

Obviously, people like Anders who abuse their leniance will see it revoked.

 

 outside of Tevinter magic is seen as a curse, not a gift.

The very first words of the Mage Origin are "Your magic is a gift and a curse."

Which I find to be a more reasonable and realistic position than Tevinter's.

[TheKomandorShepard]

let's see: 

Freedom of movement? nope

freedom of association? nope

land rights? nope

can enter politics? nope

proper representation? nope?

ability to have their grievousnesses heard and resolved? nope

able to marry? nope

raise a family? nope

right to privacy? nope 

 

you seem to confuse freedom with wealth it's utterly incorrect.

all of these freedoms are denied to mages by law not corruption by law. it is oppression.

 

no one deny's mages are not poor like a farmer doesn't change the fact the farmer has more freedom and rights a concept you fail to understand.

 

your nonsense about the law is just that, you can't enshrine it in law and say. "öh well its legal, cant be oppressive".

the law is oppressive and the entire system is oppressive by its very nature.

 

Hence systematic oppression.  

Remove ALL LAWS THEY OPPRESS US!

1.They have freedom of movment they can move simple they can't leave tower at least not without permission pretty same is with borders.

2.Fraternities

3.Very few peoples in setting have that so well.

4.Fraternities

5.What proper representation?Be more specific here.

6.False pretty much reason for FE.

7.False they can problem is that very few peoples outside circle would marry mage

8.Here i have to agree they can't

9.False they have right to privacy pretty much orsino tried go with that to grand cleric but same as with police they can investigate you.

[WildOrchid]

Mages ftw.

[Lumix19]

1)From what i remember that girl killed her father or at least she did something not nice? Cole killed someone as well... also we don't know if this is accepted by law , result of corruption or just punishment for mages that broke the law.

2.You mean Grace and her extensive band of circle mages? Same for Houn and good porion of blood mages in last part of the game?   

3.They have free speach pretty much existence of libertarians proves that they even could vote to separate from chantry.And no they aren't dehumanized chantry paints mages in both lights positive and negative so system is clean here if something it are individuals who do that.

1.) Has been discussed already

2.) I'm pretty sure Grace was the only blood mage there which she learned from Decimus, unless I'm missing something? The others I'll grant you though many of them weren't part of the Circle except Huon and Evelina.

3.) Except the Templars didn't allow the vote to proceed? I think individuals such as Cole's father, Keili and Meredith would disagree that mages are painted in a good light.

[MisterJB]

Actually, the mages can be said to be one of the very few groups in Thedas who can enter politics for the fact that any mages can become First Enchanter whereas becoming a noble or a king is difficult if not impossible in most places in Thedas.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.) Has been discussed already

2.) I'm pretty sure Grace was the only blood mage there which she learned from Decimus, unless I'm missing something? The others I'll grant you though many of them weren't part of the Circle except Huon and Evelina.

3.) Except the Templars didn't allow the vote to proceed? I think individuals such as Cole's father, Keili and Meredith would disagree that mages are painted in a good light.

1.Well if you say so.

2.Nope all of them were blood mages and part of the circle save who Evelina wasn't blood mage (or at we don't know that) she turned into abomnation. 

3.Im glad they didn't but mages refused to give Rhys in hand of the law who was suspect so mages broke the law then killing started.So you tell me our law paint black peoples in bad light because our society have racists?

[Lumix19]

If you side with the Templars, nearly all mages summon demons and use blood magic.

And I don't buy they learned how to do that in the time it took for Hawke to walk across Lowtown and the Docks, they had to have been practicing it for some time.

 

 

The right of association, for one. which is expressed through the formation of Fraternities.

As for free speech, well they could always shout in front on the king's palace. That's pretty much what Orsino did.

 

One of the nobles is act 3 says "Mages shouldn't be allowed to speak in public" which implies that they are normally allowed.

 

 

Except for Gregoir, Wynne, Rhys, Adrian, Ines, Finn, Mahren, etc.

They are allowed to leave the Circle. Rhys specifically says that they used to be allowed to visit Val-Royeaux to buy stuff. They just have to prove they're not a threat.

Obviously, people like Anders who abuse their leniance will see it revoked.

 

The very first words of the Mage Origin are "Your magic is a gift and a curse."

Which I find to be a more reasonable and realistic position than Tevinter's.

1.) And if you side with the mages basically none of them use blood magic except the weird one with the Pride Demon. What's your point?

2.) I believe freedom of association is the "right to join or leave groups of a person's own choosing, and for the group to take collective action to pursue the interests of members", I'm sorry but outside Fraternities what other groups are mages allowed to join?

3.) I'll give you that mages probably officially have some degree of freedom of speech. Unofficially? I doubt it's easy to say bad things about Templars when they are your jailors.

4.) Greagoir? He's knight-commander. Wynne helped the Hero of Ferelden, not typical, Rhys and Adrian were only allowed to leave because the Divine gave Wynne the go-ahead, Innes I'll give you but who's Mahren? Rhys is a Senior Enchanter, can we say that for all the other mages and apprentices?

5.) I've already said something about this

[Helios969]

1.Well if you say so.

2.Nope all of them were blood mages and part of the circle save who Evelina wasn't blood mage (or at we don't know that) she turned into abomnation. 

3.Im glad they didn't but mages refused to give Rhys in hand of the law who was suspect so mages broke the law then killing started.So you tell me our law paint black peoples in bad light because our society have racists?

#3:  At one time black people were painted in a bad light by laws by racists.  Thankfully society has grown beyond such...mostly.

[berrieh]

let's see: 

Freedom of movement? nope

The mages are often granted freedom of movement - less so once tensions arise after Kirkwall - depending on their station, perceived ability to control themselves, etc. Freedom of movement had only recently become restricted in Asunder, and there's no reason to believe it needed to be restricted forever. They are not free to just leave the Circle, if this is what you mean. This is for the safety of society as a whole, as well as the safety of the mages (against witch-hunters, demons, and themselves).

 

freedom of association? nope 

They have fraternities and freedom of association. The College of Mages was suspended, but not necessarily permanently. It co-existed with the Circle for hundreds of years and association was crucial to Circle life. 

 

land rights? nope 

This is true enough, but in return they get to live in relative wealth - better than almost anyone in Thedas. They cannot inherit land, but so few of them would be able to in general, it seems like a silly fuss. The Circle is a better life in terms of wealth than 99% of Thedas.

 

can enter politics? nope 

First Enchanters are political figures. They cannot enter politics except through the Circle, though. 

 

proper representation? nope? What does that even mean in Thedas, though? 

 

ability to have their grievousnesses heard and resolved? nope In many cases, they were. As tensions tightened, this became an issue - but it's not like it was an issue for a length of time. Mages had their colleges and conclaves for hundreds of years, and they had only recently been suspended. 

 

able to marry? nope True, they are not, because marriage is tied to inheritance and property in Thedas. They are allowed to have relations.

 

raise a family? nope This is something I don't understand, provide the child is also a mage. They are allowed to visit mage children in some cases, we know, once the children are in the Circle. 

 

right to privacy? nope To some degree, they are allowed this. 

 

you seem to confuse freedom with wealth it's utterly incorrect.

all of these freedoms are denied to mages by law not corruption by law. it is oppression.

 

no one deny's mages are not poor like a farmer doesn't change the fact the farmer has more freedom and rights a concept you fail to understand.

 

your nonsense about the law is just that, you can't enshrine it in law and say. "öh well its legal, cant be oppressive".

the law is oppressive and the entire system is oppressive by its very nature.

 

Hence systematic oppression.  

 

The thing is, most of the freedoms you cite come from our modern idea of freedom and rights. Thedas has no such rights in general, really (different areas obviously differ). Feudalism, in general, is oppressive. I would argue mages are less oppressed than elves (better to be a mage elf than otherwise a city elf) anywhere, certainly less than slaves in Tevinter, and no more oppressed than the average person in Thedas. 

 

I don't disagree their are abuses in the system and that it needs reformation, but you are holding the Circles to a standard much higher than anything else in Thedas. 

 

Actually, the mages can be said to be one of the very few groups in Thedas who can enter politics for the fact that any mages can become First Enchanter whereas becoming a noble or a king is difficult if not impossible in most places in Thedas.

 

Yes, mages are actually less restricted by their birth (race and class) than others. 

[berrieh]

#3:  At one time black people were painted in a bad light by laws by racists.  Thankfully society has grown beyond such...mostly.

 

A black person couldn't easily become possessed by demons and destroy a whole city. 

 

If you're looking for a true Civil Rights correlation, look to the City Elves, not the Mages. Mages are gun-control. 

[Lumix19]

1.Well if you say so.

2.Nope all of them were blood mages and part of the circle save who Evelina wasn't blood mage (or at we don't know that) she turned into abomnation. 

3.Im glad they didn't but mages refused to give Rhys in hand of the law who was suspect so mages broke the law then killing started.So you tell me our law paint black peoples in bad light because our society have racists?

1.) Exactly who is all of them?

2.) I'm not going to discuss Lambert's actions or the mages' refusal to hand over Rhys, this has been discussed in another thread I believe, one which discusses Lambert specifically. The point I'm trying to make is that the Templars didn't allow the Conclave to vote for independence. No, because law and religious/Chantry teachings are two different things. Don't confuse them. Besides the anti-mage sentiment is far more widespread than racism is in our society. Mages are looked upon as people to be pitied at best, and hated at worst and that's down to the Chantry's teachings.

[Helios969]

A black person couldn't easily become possessed by demons and destroy a whole city. 

 

If you're looking for a true Civil Rights correlation, look to the City Elves, not the Mages. Mages are gun-control. 

I wasn't trying to correlate anything...just shedding some light on a comment another made in an argument.

 

I find the whole pro-mage vs. pro-templar discussion as the proverbial dog that chases it's tale endlessly in circles.  It's highly amusing but wholly ineffectual.

[kann.nix9mm]

I find it very interesting when you talk about such things like freedom of speech etc. in a world with a middle age setting.

 

To the Topic question "Where do I stand?".

 

It pretty much depends from where I look at it. If I am looking from the outside with my current knowledge and believes I would say I tend to be more mage, even if in essence I am neither really comfortable with both sides. Anders stupidity and terrorist attack as well as Fionas drive to spark the war is disgusting. I won't go into the Templars, 17 annulments until now, enough said.

 

Would I live in Thedas and be a commoner like a freeholder, shop worker or merchant I personally would probably not care about either side. I would either curse them both or take advantage of the conflict. If I were either a Templar or Mage I probably would join the Wardens or the Inquisition, if only not to be mercilessly hunted down by one side.

[Lumix19]

A black person couldn't easily become possessed by demons and destroy a whole city. 

 

If you're looking for a true Civil Rights correlation, look to the City Elves, not the Mages. Mages are gun-control. 

I don't think mages and guns are a fair comparison. Guns can be used by anybody, mages are born to wield magic. Blood magic is more related to gun-control.

[raging_monkey]

#3:  At one time black people were painted in a bad light by laws by racists.  Thankfully society has grown beyond such...mostly.

im still pulled over for literally no reason.

[Helios969]

im still pulled over for literally no reason.

Are you rich person living in South Park?  Seriously though, that's f****d up!

[TheKomandorShepard]

#3:  At one time black people were painted in a bad light by laws by racists.  Thankfully society has grown beyond such...mostly.

Irrelevant here i was talking about current law and fact that racists still are hill and always will.

 

 

1.) Exactly who is all of them?

2.) I'm not going to discuss Lambert's actions or the mages' refusal to hand over Rhys, this has been discussed in another thread I believe, one which discusses Lambert specifically. The point I'm trying to make is that the Templars didn't allow the Conclave to vote for independence. No, because law and religious/Chantry teachings are two different things. Don't confuse them. Besides the anti-mage sentiment is far more widespread than racism is in our society. Mages are looked upon as people to be pitied at best, and hated at worst and that's down to the Chantry's teachings.

1) All names i pointed in our conversation as well grace/thrask plus large amount of blood mages in circle in last straw.

 

2.As i said mages didn't want give up suspect in the hands of the law that was legal reason why templars attacked.Circle law is also pretty much based on chantry that is religious institution that holds power over circles chantry paints mages in negative light and that negative light is nothing more than truth (i guess you would prefer to chantry lie about mages and they are safe?) but chantry also paints mages in good light how individuals feels about something doesn't change fact that chantry paints mages in bad (that is turth) and good light.Not mention mention pretty much that with that amount of disasters and destruction mages cause it is little to wonder why peoples fear and hate them... 

[Lumix19]

Irrelevant here i was talking about current law and fact that racists still are hill and always will.

 

 

1) All names i pointed in our conversation as well grace/thrask plus large amount of blood mages in circle in last straw.

 

2.As i said mages didn't want give up suspect in the hands of the law that was legal reason why templars attacked.Circle law is also pretty much based on chantry that is religious institution that holds power over circles chantry paints mages in negative light and that negative light is nothing more than truth (i guess you would prefer to chantry lie about mages and they are safe?) but chantry also paints mages in good light how individuals feels about something doesn't change fact that chantry paints mages in bad (that is turth) and good light.Not mention mention pretty much that with that amount of disasters and destruction mages cause it is little to wonder why peoples fear and hate them... 

1.) I'm just going to say that I didn't say any Circle mages wielding blood magic on the pro-mage side.

2.) Again your first part is discussed elsewhere, I'm not going to get into it. Yet people seem to ignore all the good they do, like provide healing and fight wars, weird that. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here, I doubt we'll change each other's mind.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Remove ALL LAWS THEY OPPRESS US!

1.They have freedom of movment they can move simple they can't leave tower at least not without permission pretty same is with borders.

2.Fraternities

3.Very few peoples in setting have that so well.

4.Fraternities

5.What proper representation?Be more specific here.

6.False pretty much reason for FE.

7.False they can problem is that very few peoples outside circle would marry mage

8.Here i have to agree they can't

9.False they have right to privacy pretty much orsino tried go with that to grand cleric but same as with police they can investigate you.

 

1: cant leave the tower without permission.............. that's a restriction freedom of movement.

2: do you know what freedom of association is? here's a hint being removed from your family violates freedom of association, but thanks for playing.

3: really? so your average person by law is excluded from owning land no matter how much money they have? so far only mages have this restriction 

4: once again we delve to your point scoring, entering politics of the country they are part of not the internal politcis of their jail.

5: proper representation would mean the people deciding the laws for mages would be comprised of shock horror mundanes and mages not just mundanes.

6: clearly bullshit, the FE cannot have a knight commander removed for corruption nor can they take the accusations of abuse to a higher power.

7: your finally right i concede they are forbidden from marrying.................merely "discouraged"

8: a breakthrough considering the your above comments.

9: you don't understand what privacy is either. here's a hint having to share space and being watched by templars all the time in your own home as mages do violates basic privacy.

 

but i'm sure you will continue to try and twist and worm your way into justifying the oppression. a clear sign it doesn't actually sit right with you. many others have conceded that the system is oppressive they just don't see a better way to do things.

 

so why are you so hell bent or trying to resort to rubbish political speak to pretend the mages aren't being oppressed? 

[raging_monkey]

Are you rich person living in South Park?  Seriously though, that's f****d up!

nah simply a law abiding person that has a "supsicious" car...

[Xilizhra]

The thing is, most of the freedoms you cite come from our modern idea of freedom and rights. Thedas has no such rights in general, really (different areas obviously differ). Feudalism, in general, is oppressive. I would argue mages are less oppressed than elves (better to be a mage elf than otherwise a city elf) anywhere, certainly less than slaves in Tevinter, and no more oppressed than the average person in Thedas. 

 

I don't disagree their are abuses in the system and that it needs reformation, but you are holding the Circles to a standard much higher than anything else in Thedas.

Only because the mages are the only ones trying to do something about it. I'd be behind the efforts of any others to free themselves from oppression.

 

Of course, mages also have many issues that the masses do not, such as being locked into confined spaces with people who might try to kill them at any moment, as well as the looming threat of mind rape for the younger ones.