1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Jewlie Ghoulie]

Personally, It would depend on the situation. Sometimes mages are wrong, sometimes templars were wrong.

I don't think Meredith would have been wrong to seek Justice against Anders for blowing up the chantry, but I do think she was wrong for damning all the circle when he wasn't even from the circle . I also think Meredith had every right to be vigilant against blood mages in the circle but she went about it wrong.

I am in general proCircle as long as the templars but I also believe things can change for the benefit of mages and templars.
I'm very grey on the subject.

[The Elder King]

My decision in DAI will be based on The factions' goals and actions in the game.
I'm not very impressed on how they're acting in the Hinterlands though.

[Ryriena]

I stand with the mages on this but I am also someone whom is very much against opressing people for how they are born.

[Tevinter Soldier]

let's see: 

Freedom of movement? nope

The mages are often granted freedom of movement - less so once tensions arise after Kirkwall - depending on their station, perceived ability to control themselves, etc. Freedom of movement had only recently become restricted in Asunder, and there's no reason to believe it needed to be restricted forever. They are not free to just leave the Circle, if this is what you mean. This is for the safety of society as a whole, as well as the safety of the mages (against witch-hunters, demons, and themselves).

 

freedom of association? nope 

They have fraternities and freedom of association. The College of Mages was suspended, but not necessarily permanently. It co-existed with the Circle for hundreds of years and association was crucial to Circle life. 

 

land rights? nope 

This is true enough, but in return they get to live in relative wealth - better than almost anyone in Thedas. They cannot inherit land, but so few of them would be able to in general, it seems like a silly fuss. The Circle is a better life in terms of wealth than 99% of Thedas.

 

can enter politics? nope 

First Enchanters are political figures. They cannot enter politics except through the Circle, though. 

 

proper representation? nope? What does that even mean in Thedas, though? 

 

ability to have their grievousnesses heard and resolved? nope In many cases, they were. As tensions tightened, this became an issue - but it's not like it was an issue for a length of time. Mages had their colleges and conclaves for hundreds of years, and they had only recently been suspended. 

 

able to marry? nope True, they are not, because marriage is tied to inheritance and property in Thedas. They are allowed to have relations.

 

raise a family? nope This is something I don't understand, provide the child is also a mage. They are allowed to visit mage children in some cases, we know, once the children are in the Circle. 

 

right to privacy? nope To some degree, they are allowed this. 

 

you seem to confuse freedom with wealth it's utterly incorrect.

all of these freedoms are denied to mages by law not corruption by law. it is oppression.

 

no one deny's mages are not poor like a farmer doesn't change the fact the farmer has more freedom and rights a concept you fail to understand.

 

your nonsense about the law is just that, you can't enshrine it in law and say. "öh well its legal, cant be oppressive".

the law is oppressive and the entire system is oppressive by its very nature.

 

Hence systematic oppression.  

 

The thing is, most of the freedoms you cite come from our modern idea of freedom and rights. Thedas has no such rights in general, really (different areas obviously differ). Feudalism, in general, is oppressive. I would argue mages are less oppressed than elves (better to be a mage elf than otherwise a city elf) anywhere, certainly less than slaves in Tevinter, and no more oppressed than the average person in Thedas. 

 

I don't disagree their are abuses in the system and that it needs reformation, but you are holding the Circles to a standard much higher than anything else in Thedas. 

 

MisterJB, on 05 Nov 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Actually, the mages can be said to be one of the very few groups in Thedas who can enter politics for the fact that any mages can become First Enchanter whereas becoming a noble or a king is difficult if not impossible in most places in Thedas.

 

Yes, mages are actually less restricted by their birth (race and class) than others

 

rights and freedoms are inherent whether their observed generally at the time is irrevelant.

you havent even refuted anything i've said.

 

you acknowledge their are restrictions on their movement

you acknowledge that by being riped from their families and forced to live segregated from the rest of society impinges on freedom of association.

you acknowledge the restrictions on land rights

you acknowledge they cant enter politics outside the circle

you don't understand what representation means (basically those that inact laws are made up by their peers, example you have atleast one mage at a landsmeet)

those conclaves held no power their was no recourse to have templars brought in line or mages got the freedoms they want.

you acknowledge real marriage doesn't exist.

if mages have children they are removed and sent to another circle, that's not raising a child.

 

you don't even question the fact their being oppressed.

as i said the fact their oppressed is not open for debate its a fact. a fact commander Shepard doesn't comprehend. 

 

and hence i'm forced to educate him.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.) I'm just going to say that I didn't say any Circle mages wielding blood magic on the pro-mage side.

2.) Again your first part is discussed elsewhere, I'm not going to get into it. Yet people seem to ignore all the good they do, like provide healing and fight wars, weird that. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here, I doubt we'll change each other's mind.

1.Play the game then and see last straw if you don't see any blood mages.

2.Not rly they fought only with qunari and their healing is hardly worth constant spam of disasters and destruction.

 

 

1: cant leave the tower without permission.............. that's a restriction freedom of movement.

2: do you know what freedom of association is? here's a hint being removed from your family violates freedom of association, but thanks for playing.

3: really? so your average person by law is excluded from owning land no matter how much money they have? so far only mages have this restriction 

4: once again we delve to your point scoring, entering politics of the country they are part of not the internal politcis of their jail.

5: proper representation would mean the people deciding the laws for mages would be comprised of shock horror mundanes and mages not just mundanes.

6: clearly bullshit, the FE cannot have a knight commander removed for corruption nor can they take the accusations of abuse to a higher power.

7: your finally right i concede they are forbidden from marrying.................merely "discouraged"

8: a breakthrough considering the your above comments.

9: you don't understand what privacy is either. here's a hint having to share space and being watched by templars all the time in your own home as mages do violates basic privacy.

 

but i'm sure you will continue to try and twist and worm your way into justifying the oppression. a clear sign it doesn't actually sit right with you. many others have conceded that the system is oppressive they just don't see a better way to do things.

 

so why are you so hell bent or trying to resort to rubbish political speak to pretend the mages aren't being oppressed? 

1.You can't leave country without permission you are oppressed you know.

2.Naive pretty much like it or not it is necessity (even most mages know that) not to mention family can contant mage that was proved.

3.Not rly not everyone can own land in Thedas only peoples with position if mage somehow will prove himself it can be in case see willhelm or mage warden but it is same with everyone else in thedas.

4.If you talk about country same as above few peoples can do that so well...

5.Circles represent mages and FE and KC both have control over some aspects of circle also from what i remember circle was formed with mages approval.

6.Oh they can even devs said that it is how it works but sometimes FE is just weak and can't do that like in orsino case as they said.

7.They still can so well.

8.Because here it is truth they can't

9.I know what privacy is and im pretty sure if they can learn blood magic in circle they have privacy (way to much than they should have) so that means they aren't watched 24/7.

 

So it is nothing more than pure wrong accusation of system that tries work with reality and if you want working society you need restraint peoples and other things (animals ,guns and other things) by creating laws appropriate to certain being or thing.Simple mages are different than non-mages and different laws and measures are required.
 

[raging_monkey]

2Weeks til we have a glorious war

[Ieldra]

My main objections to the current system:

 

(1) The Circles are run by the Chantry, a religion with a strong anti-magic ideology. That is not acceptable.

(2) Templars are selected based on religious zeal rather than professional competence and careful judgement. That is not acceptable.

(3) Mages are prevented from taking their place in normal society. That is not acceptable. It's also bad from a pragmatic point of view, since isolation breeds disregard. Mages who take part in normal society are much less likely to look down on non-mages.

(4) Mages are pre-emptively interned for life. That is not acceptable. Any such measure must be temporary unless a mage can't learn to control their powers.

(5) The pragmatic rationale for keeping mages interned is all bound up in a moral message about magic's supposed "corrupting influence". That is not at all acceptable.

 

In my view, the ideal solution would be to make the Circles autonomous institutions for learning, and living for those who want to live there. Meanwhile, I am firmly convinced that almost all mages would be rather dead than possessed, and would welcome a trusted companion who could interrupt their magic. There should be an organization that trains its people to resist magic and to be trusted companions to mages rather than glorified jailors like the Templars. Under those conditions, I'd be OK with a rule saying that mages out of a Circle must be accompanied by someone who could interrupt their magic. 

[Lumix19]

1.Play the game then and see last straw if you don't see any blood mages.
2.Not rly they fought only with qunari and their healing is hardly worth constant spam of disasters and destruction.
 
 

1.You can't leave country without permission you are oppressed you know.
2.Naive pretty much like it or not it is necessity (even most mages know that) not to mention family can contant mage that was proved.
3.Not rly not everyone can own land in Thedas only peoples with position if mage somehow will prove himself it can be in case see willhelm or mage warden but it is same with everyone else in thedas.
4.If you talk about country same as above few peoples can do that so well...
5.Circles represent mages and FE and KC both have control over some aspects of circle also from what i remember circle was formed with mages approval.
6.Oh they can even devs said that it is how it works but sometimes FE is just weak and can't do that like in orsino case as they said.
7.They still can so well.
8.Because here it is truth they can't
9.I know what privacy is and im pretty sure if they can learn blood magic in circle they have privacy (way to much than they should have) so that means they aren't watched 24/7.
 
So it is nothing more than pure wrong accusation of system that tries work with reality and if you want working society you need restraint peoples and other things (animals ,guns and other things) by creating laws appropriate to certain being or thing.Simple mages are different than non-mages and different laws and measures are required.

I've just got to say quickly that the Circle was not formed with the permission of the magi. The original Inqusition signed the Nevarren Accords with the Chantry and set up the Circle together, mages who didn't surrender to the Circle were then rounded up by Templars.

[Medhia_Nox]

1)  The current tyranny of the dogmatic Templars has to change.  Whether that means making them a secular state governed faction or whether or not the Chantry itself can change remains to be seen.

 

2)  The current radicalized mage rebellion is unacceptable.  The rebellion must be crushed swiftly and the mages must be brought back to a baseline that involves education, monitoring and control when absolutely necessary.

 

If/when I have to choose in game - I am currently prepared, as a mage player, to choose the Templars.  As it has been confirmed that the leadership of the mages has not been compromised - and I do not feel, without compelling arguments in game, that they are a reasonable faction I will be able to talk sense into.  

 

The Templars have been so factionalized at this point - rebel templars, presumably loyal (to the Chantry) templars and Red Templars - that I imagine they (the loyal and rebel factions) will come quickly to heel.  I can change them from this point of advantage. 

 

Both factions are to blame - both factions must be called to task for their grossly irresponsible behavior.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I've just got to say quickly that the Circle was not formed with the permission of the magi. The original Inqusition signed the Nevarren Accords with the Chantry and set up the Circle together, mages who didn't surrender to the Circle were then rounded up by Templars.

Hm sorry that short after circle was formed mages negotiated with chantry .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Thedas was ruled by mages for more than 8000 years and still ruled in most places, every Thedas progress is a mages work...even dwarfs was nothing without mages and their golden age is mages work

 

the only problem what thedas have with magic is the problem what humans do when they became a slaves and army(as dragons and demons) of OLD GODs and OLD GODS after having what they needed do blight what mages stop by creating grey wardens with saved ancient elven knoledge about blight

 

the real problem of thedas is Orlais Empire and their Chantry and Tempalrs who for 700 years do so many bad sh*t for entire Thedas that Old Gods was not so bad after all

 

most of thedas knoledges was perish because of them and they do so many wars, opressions and destructions for almost nothing exept spreding their new version of maker religion and having money from lands and cirlces..and they just spend them for fansy shoes and gold statues and making more wars

 

 

fight with magic and mages is pointless and only make things worst for thedas and especially for stupid non-mages who was brainwashed by gready and stupid Orlais non-mages for 700 years with their Chantry and Templars

[Lumix19]

Hm sorry that short after circle was formed mages negotiated with chantry .

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Either way I'll just quote Gaider here:

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Thedas was ruled by mages for more than 8000 years and still ruled in most places, every Thedas progress is a mages work

 

the only problem what thedas have with magic is the problem what humans do when they became a slaves and army(as dragons and demons) of OLD GODs and OLD GODS after having what they needed do blight what mages stop by creating grey wardens with saved ancient elven knoledge about blight

 

the real problem of thedas is Orlais Empire and their Chantry and Tempalrs who for 700 years do so many bad sh*t for entire Thedas that Old Gods was not so bad after all

 

most of thedas knoledges was perish, they do so many wars, opressions and destructions for almost nothing exept spreding their new version of maker religion and having money from lands and cirlces

Yeah because tevinter spread love ,tolerance and peace not mention they almost killed every race last time.Chantry lands are utopia in comparison to tevinter (and that says something). 

 

 

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Either way I'll just quote Gaider here:
 

I agreed with you ,simple i mistook negotiations that were short after creating circle with negotiations during creating circle.Yet it seems that many mages still were fine with idea of circle what was my point.

[Esteed789]

Then let me ask this? Who would train the new mages being born every day on how to control their powers?

 

Even if we kill all of the current crop, more are being born. Kill all the experienced mages, and the new ones won't have any teachers, and will have to start from scratch, and with children being children, dangerous trial and errors and goof-ups, or simple horseplay. 

 

Like I said, I'd prefer a peaceful compromise option.  But if there is none?  Then maybe the new mages and likely new templars will do better than the idiots on both sides that came before.

[Lumix19]

I agreed with you ,simple i mistook negotiations that were short after creating circle with negotiations during creating circle.

Ah right

[Tevinter Soldier]

1.Play the game then and see last straw if you don't see any blood mages.

2.Not rly they fought only with qunari and their healing is hardly worth constant spam of disasters and destruction.

 

 

1.You can't leave country without permission you are oppressed you know.

2.Naive pretty much like it or not it is necessity (even most mages know that) not to mention family can contant mage that was proved.

3.Not rly not everyone can own land in Thedas only peoples with position if mage somehow will prove himself it can be in case see willhelm or mage warden but it is same with everyone else in thedas.

4.If you talk about country same as above few peoples can do that so well...

5.Circles represent mages and FE and KC both have control over some aspects of circle also from what i remember circle was formed with mages approval.

6.Oh they can even devs said that it is how it works but sometimes FE is just weak and can't do that like in orsino case as they said.

7.They still can so well.

8.Because here it is truth they can't

9.I know what privacy is and im pretty sure if they can learn blood magic in circle they have privacy (way to much than they should have) so that means they aren't watched 24/7.

 

So it is nothing more than pure wrong accusation of system that tries work with reality and if you want working society you need restraint peoples and other things (animals ,guns and other things) by creating laws appropriate to certain being or thing.Simple mages are different than non-mages and different laws and measures are required.
 

 

and were into to straw man,

1 it's got nothing to with countries borders its walking out your front door. mages aren't trying to enter a foreign country

2 win number 2 huzzah.

3 anyone can own land in thedas whether they have the means is completely different. the fact is only mages are denied to own land by law.

4 were talking about potential here the ability to, what because elves and dwarfs cant either you think its not oppression? news flash their oppressed as well!

5A: what? no FE can decide the law they are expressly forbidden from doing so. they have no say on the system.

5B: you seem confused here, the circle pre-dates anything to do with the pitiful chantry. the Navarra accord turned them into to jails without the consent of the Magi, a rebellion where mages locked themselves inside a chantry forced the chantry to concede ground and allowed them to practice limited magic inside their new prisons but they never agreed to be locked up in them. (notice something here the chantry has a history of requiring force to reform its draconian laws) 

the only Mages to agree to the circles was in tevinter and they are not run like the jails of the south. the fact you think sane people agreed to jailed for being born alarms me.

6: link to this comment? who do they turn to? 

7: we agree

8: we agree

9: privacy is more then just how often your watched,  it's a general right that law abiding citizens are not watched.

 

so far you've conceded on two point's

they don't have freedom of association and they can not raise a family.

clear signs of oppression. How long are we going to do this dance before the dam wall breaks? 

[Asdrubael Vect]

Yeah because tevinter spread love ,tolerance and peace not mention they almost killed every race last time.Chantry lands are utopia in comparison to tevinter (and that says something). 

 

Ancient Tevinter under the rule of Old Gods was not spread love, tolerance and peace(exept for dwarfs) for elves who they destroy by the order and dragons, demons armies of Old Gods

 

but they unite entire Thedas human barbarians by their rule and do progress, science, building, knoledges what noone is do in Thedas anymore and losing only more and more of what they do and create without replacing them with something new or atleast somethink what is as half is cost of what they do

 

entire Thedas humans and even dwarfs was nothing before Ancient Tevinter...they have a goal, they wanted to become better then Elvennan was, they use lefted knoledges of them, they tried to expand them....most of Thedas before Tevinter was a almost inhabitant wasteland of forestes and mountans with some separated ancient elven cities/ruins who was destroyes by the Old Gods

 

the only problem in Ancient Tevinter was Old Gods who do what they want and after create a blight to release themself and conquer-blighted everything

 

 

so much blood and work was payed for those good what was created for thousand of years and Orlais with their Chantry just destroy this...they put most of the Thedas in dark ages again, they do holy wars, witch & heretics burning, genocites, do slaves and zealots who bring them money, and make veil shread..and do this without any Old Gods who at least give something back

[AltanIV]

3.Not rly not everyone can own land in Thedas only peoples with position if mage somehow will prove himself it can be in case see willhelm or mage warden but it is same with everyone else in thedas.

Technically The Warden, mage or not, doesn't own Vigil's Keep/Amaranthine, The Keep is a property of The Grey Wardens and Amaranthine is under their Jurisdiction. At best the Warden is the Keep's Caretaker. Still doesn't change he had an important position but all in all he doesn't own any land.

As for Wilhelm he seems to be some kind of an exception, although I'm not sure if he was still in contact with the Circle.

[TheKomandorShepard]

and were into to straw man,

1 it's got nothing to with countries borders its walking out your front door. mages aren't trying to enter a foreign country

2 win number 2 huzzah.

3 anyone can own land in thedas whether they have the means is completely different. the fact is only mages are denied to own land by law.

4 were talking about potential here the ability to, what because elves and dwarfs cant either you think its not oppression? news flash their oppressed as well!

5A: what? no FE can decide the law they are expressly forbidden from doing so. they have no say on the system.

5B: you seem confused here, the circle pre-dates anything to do with the pitiful chantry. the Navarra accord turned them into to jails without the consent of the Magi, a rebellion where mages locked themselves inside a chantry allowed them to practice limited magic inside their new prisons but they never agreed to be locked up in them.

6: link to this comment? who do they turn to? 

7: we agree

8: we agree

9: privacy is more then just how often your watched,  it's a general right that law abiding citizens are not watched.

 

so far you've conceded on two point's

they don't have freedom of association and they can not raise a family.

clear signs of oppression. How long are we going to do this dance before the dam wall breaks? 

1.Mages are trying brake boundaries where they can be and can't be so well it is all pretty much about how large territory where you can be is. 

2.Win?

3.From where you have than infomation from what i saw only nobles have land...

4.Elves and dwarves can't because only certain peoples can so it isn't about being elf many humans can't as well unless like mage or elf somehow will prove themelves with that mage or elf will have harder time doing that for same reason why elves can have hard time joining chantry. 

5.Hm? FE have influence even pretty wynne wanted mage warden to become FE so he could change circles for the better.I think you just want FE to stamp his foot and circle to change their but it doesn't work that way they have to work with chantry and KC.

5b?I know i took wrong events but many mages were glad for circles in DG quote that was posted by lumix so point stands.

6.Sadly i don't have link to this topic where it was said but pretty much FE represents mages in circle and when FE is too weak it may end badly for mages like in orsino case so situation vary from circle to circle.

9.But you are watched by everyone only pretty much only private time you can have is in your home and in case of mages it is their rooms.

 

 

Technically The Warden, mage or not, doesn't own Vigil's Keep/Amaranthine, The Keep is a property of The Grey Wardens and Amaranthine is under their Jurisdiction. At best the Warden is the Keep's Caretaker. Still doesn't change he had an important position but all in all he doesn't own any land.

As for Wilhelm he seems to be some kind of an exception, although I'm not sure if he was still in contact with the Circle.

Well im not talking about being arl im more talking about being teyrn if you will take wealth boon also you can become chancellor.

 

[Angloassassin]

I am an Aequitarian - enough said.

 

 

For those who aren't versed in the "Mage Fraternities." 

 

 

Aequitarian's are Mages that believe in using their Magic for better purposes. Regardless of whether or not the Chantry rules them. These would be mages like Pre-Explosion Anders, that used his healing powers secretly to fix people. Despite being an illegal Apostate. And most unwittingly the Majority of Dalish Keeper's/Firsts - who only think of helping and guiding their Clans.

 

I am for the freedom of Mages from the portion of Jackbooted Templars who get their kicks off of performing illegal acts on mages (Tranquility for Harrowed Mages, allegations of non-consensual sexual activity, physical violence - often unprovoked.)

 

Templars like DA2 Cullen, Ser Thrask (Before kidnapping your Sibling/Love Interest), Knight-Commander Gregoir - and unnamed Templars from various Mage backstories (The Templar Wynne tells you about when they first brought her to the circle, giving her sweets and allowing her to ride on his shoulders to see everything.)

[Tevinter Soldier]

1.Mages are trying brake boundaries where they can be and can't be so well it is all pretty much about how large territory where you can be is. 

2.Win?

3.From where you have than infomation from what i saw only nobles have land...

4.Elves and dwarves can't because only certain peoples can so it isn't about being elf many humans can't as well unless like mage or elf somehow will prove themelves with that mage or elf will have harder time doing that for same reason why elves can have hard time joining chantry. 

5.Hm? FE have influence even pretty wynne wanted mage warden to become FE so he could change circles for the better.I think you just want FE to stamp his foot and circle to change their but it doesn't work that way they have to work with chantry and KC.

5b?I know i took wrong events but many mages were glad for circles in DG quote that was posted by lumix so point stands.

6.Sadly i don't have link to this topic where it was said but pretty much FE represents mages in circle and when FE is too weak it may end badly for mages like in orsino case so situation vary from circle to circle.

9.But you are watched by everyone only pretty much only private time you can have is in your home and in case of mages it is their rooms.

 

1: still going with the straw man? those boundries confine them within their homes........ or are you now arguing mages aren't even citizens of their own countries? equating it to a border just furthers my point.

2: you've agreed they don't have freedom of association. visitation doesn't negate that

3: and who are nobles but people with vast amounts of money? Hawkes family for example.

4: what? all that proves is other people are oppressed as well!

5A: you miss the point. there are no mages that can set the rules that govern them. you may not want mages governing themselves you may think you have very good reasons for doing so, fact is that is opression.

5B: your point does not stand, they have no choice! that is oppression!

6: no what matters is that the Knight commander is sane like griegor who accepts his place. If the knight commander over steps the FE is stuffed. there's no recourse. what's a FE supposed to do? arrest the KC?

9: you realise what you just said there right? mages aren't free of being watched in their own home. their privacy is violated. you can't disregard that because you don't like them.

 

Just admit the truth, that this is clearly systematic oppression and we can move on to the real argument.

[raging_monkey]

1: still going with the straw man? those boundries confine them within their homes........ or are you now arguing mages aren't even citizens of their own countries? equating it to a border just furthers my point.
2: you've agreed they don't have freedom of association. visitation doesn't negate that
3: and who are nobles but people with vast amounts of money? Hawkes family for example.
4: what? all that proves is other people are oppressed as well!
5A: you miss the point. there are no mages that can set the rules that govern them. you may not want mages governing themselves you may think you have very good reasons for doing so, fact is that is opression.
5B: your point does not stand, they have no choice! that is oppression!
6: no what matters is that the Knight commander is sane like griegor who accepts his place. If the knight commander over steps the FE is stuffed. there's no recourse. what's a FE supposed to do? arrest the KC?
9: you realise what you just said there right? mages aren't free of being watched in their own home. their privacy is violated. you can't disregard that because you don't like them.
 
Just admit the truth, that this is clearly systematic oppression and we can move on to the real argument.

arguing with TKS isnt working he's set in his ways and his solutions are examples of his stance. Best to move on* shoulder nudge*

[MisterJB]

Tevinter soldier, even if a freedom is restricted, it still exists. Your freedoms and mine were restricted from the moment we were born.
For instance, freedom of association. Even if all the options the mages havê are the Fraternities ; which isn't accurate (Grey Wardens); the option still exist and, therefore, so does the freedom.

[GrayTimber]

I support the mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1: still going with the straw man? those boundries confine them within their homes........ or are you now arguing mages aren't even citizens of their own countries? equating it to a border just furthers my point.

2: you've agreed they don't have freedom of association. visitation doesn't negate that

3: and who are nobles but people with vast amounts of money? Hawkes family for example.

4: what? all that proves is other people are oppressed as well!

5A: you miss the point. there are no mages that can set the rules that govern them. you may not want mages governing themselves you may think you have very good reasons for doing so, fact is that is opression.

5B: your point does not stand, they have no choice! that is oppression!

6: no what matters is that the Knight commander is sane like griegor who accepts his place. If the knight commander over steps the FE is stuffed. there's no recourse. what's a FE supposed to do? arrest the KC?

9: you realise what you just said there right? mages aren't free of being watched in their own home. their privacy is violated. you can't disregard that because you don't like them.

 

Just admit the truth, that this is clearly systematic oppression and we can move on to the real argument.

1.Well in fact they aren't as circles aren't under country jurisdiction only chantry and country don't have power there.

2.Children can be taken by goverment with justification "we don't like way you raise your children" in our world too well take your pick but you seems cling to ideal instead wheter it will work or not.

3.Nobles are peoples with title that you either born with or have to earn it and it isn't true that nobles are rich some nobles can be poor but wheter you can gain it by being rich is to question (i want to point that Hawke was an amell so he was already born in nobilty).

4.Nope that mean they don't have privilege that we have in our times not that they are oppressed as i doubt save for ambitious people that would hurt in any way.Of course such class system may be oppression but not because of that.

5.As i said there are fraternities for that reason pretty much they can even vote to separate themeslevs from the chantry i didn't worked well for them but they could and did.So hardly they don't have any influence over laws in circles...     
6.Orsino could appeal to grand cleric or even divine when he didn't liked what meredith was doing and meredith was not pleased and he was weak FE.

7.Not rly from what i saw mages have own rooms where they aren't wached whole tower is society/building they live in same is with prisons and mental hospitals with that they have better conditions.