1428 réponses à ce sujet

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Pro-mage, but a Circle reformer rather than an abolitionist.

[Tevinter Soldier]

arguing with TKS isnt working he's set in his ways and his solutions are examples of his stance. Best to move on* shoulder nudge*

 

yeah your right i'm out!

[Keroko]

(4) Mages are pre-emptively interned for life. That is not acceptable. Any such measure must be temporary unless a mage can't learn to control their powers.
(5) The pragmatic rationale for keeping mages interned is all bound up in a moral message about magic's supposed "corrupting influence". That is not at all acceptable.

A mage is never entirely in control. That's one of the big problems without a perfect solution: There is no final line that, once you cross it, makes your magic safe forever. Every mage will carry the risk of demonic corruption for his or her entire life. Even older, far more experienced mages are not immune to this corruption, as Uldred showed us in great detail.

All it takes is one slip.

As for mages being a corrupting influence... well, power corrupts and all that. Happened to Tevinter, happened to the Chantry, happened to the templars, happens to every noble out there, will happen to the mages again.

[Celtic Latino]

Templars/Pro-Circle. While I do think there are some things that need to be relaxed (mages should be allowed to marry and have/raise children), and Templars should be monitoring each other's behavior just as much as they should the mages, I think overall the Templars have the right idea. They're essentially encouraging mages to train their skills safely under guided supervision while preventing them from hurting themselves or others.

[dragonflight288]

Like I said, I'd prefer a peaceful compromise option.  But if there is none?  Then maybe the new mages and likely new templars will do better than the idiots on both sides that came before.

 

The new mages would be four to six year olds barely discovering their power, and no knowledge on how to control it. Without trainers, people who can help them learn to control their power, not fall prey to demons and help them develop their mana use (Cardinal Rules of Magic and Mana codexes talk about the dangers there,) these young mages will have to learn everything from scratch.

 

And we all know how rationale children can be, especially when starting puberty as time goes on. 

 

Even if there isn't a peaceful compromise, we have to keep some adults alive to train the new ones. I doubt a return to the old system is even possible, it's too open to abuse and that abuse in my mind has made the templars and seekers forfeit their right to safeguard mages. But neither can mages be free and open to act as they please, I know I most certainly do not want Adrian having free reign, but also because they are so feared and hated by the people, after Kirkwall and the assassination attempt on the Divine. 

 

A new system, a reformed system, is the only thing that will bring lasting peace. We'll likely have to kill or imprison the extremists on both sides. And since this issue is so polarized, no matter what the reformed system is, some people will not be happy at all.

 

But the mages won't go back to the Circle's peacefully, and the templars who betrayed the Divine and the Chantry to hunt them will not settle for anything less than mages being dead, tranquilized, or back under their control. As Cullen says, it's become an ingrained attitude that templars have divine authority over mages, and this very attitude is not acceptable in a new system because it simply isn't true. 

 

I, for one, can't wait for Inquisition to come out and see what new things the world shows us, and my Dwarf, Elf, Qunari, and Human Inquisitors are ready to take the world in a large variety of ways. 

[Master Warder Z_]

the chantry forbids mages having political power, in navarra they are said to have "mortalitasi" as advisors running the country through a pathetic king.

Note many nobles have magi advisors anything beyond thats hearsay.

You going on a tangent about how Nevarra supposedly could survive a march doesn't change the fact having a mage advisor is just that having an advisor.

Not to mention it isn't a titled position so no laws are even being broken.

So you can spew conjecture all you wish but aside from two sentences in WOT there isn't even speculation on these supposedly free magi.

Actually being anything beyond a royal advisors.

I'd also point out Nevarra is a follower of the Chantry and as such it has Templars to prevent such things.

[Keroko]

I'd also point out Nevarra is a follower of the Chantry and as such it has Templars to prevent such things.

So did Rivain, and yet that place had people willingly turn into abominations as an accepted practice. Templars being somewhere doesn't automatically mean the Chantry's rules are followed to the letter.

[Sports72Xtrm]

If people think they can hold corrupt templars accountable for abuse, why is it such an impossible task to hold corrupt mages accountable without mass punishing all mages? I think a fair compromise is something like the riviain circle, though I know people won't see it that way as they distrust anything involving spirits or mages actually using their powers in unconventional ways. But the status quo has proven to be intolerable and corrupt. Rivain at least had an innovative way to humanely coexist with mages and so far its worked. Once a mage has passed his harrowing then he or she has proven oneself capable of resisting demonic possession otherwise the Harrowing is just a useless ritual with no purpose other than to give mundanes a false sense of security. Templars are great at fighting mages, there is no doubt of that but its not a just way of policing mages and that is a fact. I liked it better when they were an inquisition who went after bad mages and protected the good ones instead of institutionalized mass imprisonment and psuedo-slavery to placate irrational fears.

[Master Warder Z_]

So did Rivain, and yet that place had people willingly turn into abominations as an accepted practice.

Hardly.

We don't ever see it listed as an acceptable circle practice.

It's acceptable according to their culture not the law.

Make the distinction.

[elrofrost]

Mage of course. All the cool kids support the mages. Supporting Templars is like supporting that guy who yells "get off my lawn!".

[Br3admax]

I think a fair compromise is something like the riviain circle.

People with this mindset are a part of the problem. The Rivani Circle is the last thing that needs to be emulated.

[dragonflight288]

People with this mindset are a part of the problem. The Rivani Circle is the last thing that needs to be emulated.

 

And yet it was the common person who was most in support of it, to such a degree that the Chantry was forced to make allowances and mages there had far more freedom than in other Circle's because the mages were supported by the people. 

[dragonflight288]

Mage of course. All the cool kids support the mages. Supporting Templars is like supporting that guy who yells "get off my lawn!".

 

lol, now I have this image stuck in my head.

 

 

This guy is the templars. lol. 

[Kenadian]

Kill the blood mages/crazy bastards. Crazy templars are included in crazy bastards category.

[Keroko]

Hardly.

We don't ever see it listed as an acceptable circle practice.

It's acceptable according to their culture not the law.

Make the distinction.

And yet the templars didn't hunt down the practitioners. Not until more strict members arrived and burned the whole place down. Which means that your "templars would prevent mages getting into power in Nevarra" argument is rather baseless.

[MisterJB]

And yet it was the common person who was most in support of it, to such a degree that the Chantry was forced to make allowances and mages there had far more freedom than in other Circle's because the mages were supported by the people. 

And if you were to approach an Orlesian or Ferelden commoner or Marcher commoner, they would be most in support of the Andrastian Circle.

Popularity doesn't equal quality.

[Br3admax]

And yet it was the common person who was most in support of it, to such a degree that the Chantry was forced to make allowances and mages there had far more freedom than in other Circle's because the mages were supported by the people.

Their culture also supports allowing spirits to possesss them and turn them into abominations. Forgive me for not caring.

[KainD]

I really want to recruit blood mages and red templars into inquisition. But they probably won't work together.  
Maybe if I help blood mages destroy the regular templars and help red templars to destroy non-maleficarum mages they will be happy enough to set aside their differences for the common goal.. 

[Master Warder Z_]

And yet the templars didn't hunt down the practitioners.

I don't recall ever reading anything to suggest they didn't take issue with it.

Who's to say they didn't?

[MisterJB]

Were there even Templars outside of the capital?

[Keroko]

I don't recall ever reading anything to suggest they didn't take issue with it.

Who's to say they didn't?

... The fact that it was an accepted practice?

Really, you can't have templars in full control of a country's magical culture and a country having its own magical culture virtually unopposed.

[Master Warder Z_]

... The fact that it was an accepted practice?

 

Again culturally; nothing suggested it was accepted either by the Circle or its Guardians.

 

Cultural acceptance is not legal acceptance, nor it is automatic ground for tolerating it if it is illegal.

[The Baconer]

It is acceptable as per the law, actually. Seers are (were) allowed to exist on the condition that they offer assistance to the Templars when called upon.

 

According to WoT.

[Master Warder Z_]

It is acceptable as per the law, actually. Seers are (were) allowed to exist on the condition that they offer assistance to the Templars when called upon.

 

According to WoT.

 

Well there you go.

 

Finally some sense.

 

Mind providing a page number?

 

And given that they were under Templar authority they existed within the circle, thus at the behest of the Chantry, its restrictions, its laws.

 

It makes far more sense now.

 

I honestly didn't recall that bit, but it certainly clears things up, if they were locked away, monitored and kept under watch then it ceases to be as much of an issue, it isn't like they were living out among people.

[dragonflight288]

And if you were to approach an Orlesian or Ferelden commoner or Marcher commoner, they would be most in support of the Andrastian Circle.

Popularity doesn't equal quality.

 

Never said otherwise. Merely pointing out that the power of the people and the power of perception is a very powerful thing. Outside of Rivain, that same power gave the Chantry so much power. Add in cultural biases and norms, and there will never be a universal system that will work as a one-size-fits-all-mages. Whatever happens in Inquisition will likely have lasting effects, but even if we get to set up a new system, it won't work in Rivain the same way it would work in Nevarra, Orlais and so on. 

 

But the reverse is also true where it comes to templars and seekers. 

 

 

Their culture also supports allowing spirits to possesss them and turn them into abominations. Forgive me for not caring.

 

Are the ones possessed full of rage and lost their sanity? Or are they possessed of spirits such as Faith, Hope, Valor and such? Do these Seers have a way to allow themselves to become possessed while also retaining their minds? 

 

It's highly unlikely that they are the abominations we have come to expect otherwise they wouldn't be so popular among the non-mages of their country, and the Chantry wouldn't have been forced to make concessions. 

 

Until we actually know more, we can no more call these Seers "abominations" than we can Wynne, or even Spirit Warrior's. For all we know, they may very well be "Spirit Mages" in the same vein as those spirit warriors.