1428 réponses à ce sujet

[EmissaryofLies]

They are both spoilt children that must be punished.

 

Yep, you're on a list.

[raging_monkey]

I like that gamble.
 
Though killing all Mages is a really really bad idea with the Qunari Armada about to set sail for conquest. I think the Qunari solution to the Mage problem is the best option in order to protect the world from magic while not neutering yourself militarily.

hey every templar needs a pet am i right* sarcastic indifference to the MT war*

[Elfquisitor]

slavery theoretically brought the same benefits to slaves like Orana, that doesn't mean its for everybody....

Keeping you in the Circle doesn't mean that your a slave. Slavery is a form of taken away the freedom of the individual, and I don't se mages being inchained somewhere, or being starved to death, or forced to work. They are being kept and isolated because they are dangerous for everyone outside the Circle, espescially under emotinoal stress.How can a mage survive in the outside, when he can't prove that he is not a danger on the inside. As we've seen,there are mages who have proven themselves and have been allowed to travel outisde the Circle. You just have to prove that you won't go on rampage like we've seen so many times in DA2. What happend to Hawke's mother will happen even more often to so many people if the Circles are not reformed. And I rather support an extremist oppressor as the Templars, than take a risk with so many people on-the-line and make the mages free.

[herkles]

Keeping you in the Circle doesn't mean that your a slave. Slavery is a form of taken away the freedom of the individual, and I don't se mages being inchained somewhere, or being starved to death, or forced to work. They are being kept and isolated because they are dangerous for everyone outside the Circle, espescially under emotinoal stress.How can a mage survive in the outside, when he can't prove that he is not a danger on the inside. As we've seen,there are mages who have proven themselves and have been allowed to travel outisde the Circle. You just have to prove that you won't go on rampage like we've seen so many times in DA2. What happend to Hawke's mother will happen even more often to so many people if the Circles are not reformed. And I rather support an extremist oppressor as the Templars, than take a risk with so many people on-the-line and make the mages free.

 

you also have the incident with merdith's sister becoming an abomination killing Meredith's family and then killing an additional 70 people, as well as the whole incident with Conor in origins.

 

 

Not to mentions that as a feudal society, all these freedoms that we take for granted today, are not exactly common around this time, at least for the peasentry and commoners. 

[raging_monkey]

So because of what they might do we punish them? Still cant understand the logic, but maybe thats my afro american heritage speaking

[Sports72Xtrm]

Keeping you in the Circle doesn't mean that your a slave. Slavery is a form of taken away the freedom of the individual, and I don't se mages being inchained somewhere, or being starved to death, or forced to work. They are being kept and isolated because they are dangerous for everyone outside the Circle, espescially under emotinoal stress.How can a mage survive in the outside, when he can't prove that he is not a danger on the inside. As we've seen,there are mages who have proven themselves and have been allowed to travel outisde the Circle. You just have to prove that you won't go on rampage like we've seen so many times in DA2. What happend to Hawke's mother will happen even more often to so many people if the Circles are not reformed. And I rather support an extremist oppressor as the Templars, than take a risk with so many people on-the-line and make the mages free.

So we corral them up and if mages are a danger 24/7 only mages will kill themselves because they're "expendable" am I right? It's only the lives of mundanes that matter to you right? The Harrowing is a trial that proves that mages won't go on a rampage and are strong enough to resist demonic possession. What more proof is there needed to live a life freely? If the Harrowing is not enough, then it's just a ritual used on false pretenses to keep mages imprisoned in the tower. We've seen how the templars respect the mages' democratic process. All it takes is them saying no or an accusation of being a "corrupt" mage to give them the authority to tranquilize any mage. Labotomy or by the sword to crush dissent, that is oppression just as bad as slavery. And if you don't see the abuse in that then you are delusional and ignoring it.

 

I see you have no sympathy for Hawke's apostate father or sister Bethany who would be subjected to the same abuses.

[raging_monkey]

So we corral them up and if mages are a danger 24/7 only mages will kill themselves because they're "expendable" am I right? It's only the lives of mundanes that matter to your right? The Harrowing is a trial that proves that mages won't go on a rampage and are strong enough to resist demonic possession. What more proof is there needed to live a life freely? If the Harrowing is not enough, then it's just a ritual used on false pretenses to keep mages imprisoned in the tower. We've seen how the templars respect the mages' democratic process. All it takes is them saying no or an accusation of being a "corrupt" mage to give them the authority to tranquilize any mage. Labotomy or by the sword to crush dissent, that is oppression just as bad as slavery. And if you don't see the abuse in that then you are delusional and ignoring it.

a common view supported by the greater good logic and the majority before a minority. Which begs the question of why not cleanse magic born with tranquility or if the still want to use human weapons for wars give them more autonomy. Its a grey issue

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm pro-Smart people, so whichever group doesn't act and look like friggin idiots gets my vote.

 

*reminisces on my pro-Mage days*

So you generally don't exercise your right to vote in Thedas?

[dragonflight288]

So because of what they might do we punish them? Still cant understand the logic, but maybe thats my afro american heritage speaking

 

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done. 

[dragonflight288]

Nope.

She didn't join the mage rebellion.

It's diffirent to remain with the Chantry then it is to join the enemy.

 

So....you consider Lambert and every Seeker and Templar that followed him equally guilty of treason as she?

[Master Warder Z_]

So....you consider Lambert and every Seeker and Templar that followed him equally guilty of treason as she?

Do you purposely misunderstand?

[dragonflight288]

Do you purposely misunderstand?

 

Not at all. You are talking of the mages who left the Chantry, which the Chantry allowed may I add. You speak of Evangeline who stood with the mages and not her own order. 

 

However, every templar, every seeker who decided to leave the Chantry as well, and do an illegal hunt on mages, because the Chantry allowed the mages to leave, are engaging in a war based on their ideology on the place of magic in the world. But by doing so, they betrayed the Divine and the Chantry. The Divine owes no allegiance to the Seekers or the Templars, they as an order swear loyalty and allegiance to the Divine and the Chantry. The Seeker's own codex says they answer to the Divine. 

 

Ergo, Lambert and every templar and seeker who abandoned the Chantry is also a traitor. 

[raging_monkey]

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done.

it just befuddles me. I get x liberyies dont exist in medievil settings but they did have rebellions for x righta i believe

[Elfquisitor]

So we corral them up and if mages are a danger 24/7 only mages will kill themselves because they're "expendable" am I right? It's only the lives of mundanes that matter to you right? The Harrowing is a trial that proves that mages won't go on a rampage and are strong enough to resist demonic possession. What more proof is there needed to live a life freely? If the Harrowing is not enough, then it's just a ritual used on false pretenses to keep mages imprisoned in the tower. We've seen how the templars respect the mages' democratic process. All it takes is them saying no or an accusation of being a "corrupt" mage to give them the authority to tranquilize any mage. Labotomy or by the sword to crush dissent, that is oppression just as bad as slavery. And if you don't see the abuse in that then you are delusional and ignoring it.

 

I see you have no sympathy for Hawke's apostate father or sister Bethany who would be subjected to the same abuses.

You do realise that the Harrowing is in the moment, and a mage is a dangerous all of his life. He can always make a deal with a demon. No matter the Harrowing.

[Panda]

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done. 

 

If the mages wouldn't be vulnerable to demonic possession, accidentantly hurting others cause of untrained magic and being killed by fearful peasants I'd be all for mage freedom. But since they are vulnerable to that all there must be Circle system that protect others from them and them from others and also themselves. You can always put down a sword and never pick it again but you can't put away magic and whispering demons.

[dragonflight288]

it just befuddles me. I get x liberyies dont exist in medievil settings but they did have rebellions for x righta i believe

 

Yup. Generally called peasant revolts, which were pretty much put down hard by the nobles and knights. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

So because of what they might do we punish them? Still cant understand the logic, but maybe thats my afro american heritage speaking

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done. 

The core of the issue is that you both see it as a punishment, when it is anything but.

[Elfquisitor]

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done. 

 

So we corral them up and if mages are a danger 24/7 only mages will kill themselves because they're "expendable" am I right? It's only the lives of mundanes that matter to you right? The Harrowing is a trial that proves that mages won't go on a rampage and are strong enough to resist demonic possession. What more proof is there needed to live a life freely? If the Harrowing is not enough, then it's just a ritual used on false pretenses to keep mages imprisoned in the tower. We've seen how the templars respect the mages' democratic process. All it takes is them saying no or an accusation of being a "corrupt" mage to give them the authority to tranquilize any mage. Labotomy or by the sword to crush dissent, that is oppression just as bad as slavery. And if you don't see the abuse in that then you are delusional and ignoring it.

 

I see you have no sympathy for Hawke's apostate father or sister Bethany who would be subjected to the same abuses.

No, but I have sympathy towards all the people that had fallen victim to the abusement of a mage unnatural power. It's not because what they might do,it's because what they will do. Just look at the Imperium, mages running around free becoming magisters, owning SLAVES, sacrificing people to blood magic. Tranqulisation happens if mage cannot pass his harrowing,which I perfectly justify, because why would you let a demon puppet into the world. How many more examples do people need, I'm not saying Tempalrs are perfect and not corrupt,but mages cannot be allowed to exist outside the Circle. For the sole reason that they are a danger in all of their life, they suffer every single night, and are exposed to Fade threats always. Imagine just imagine if the Templars are gone, who will stop a demon controlled mage, a few oridnary soldiers, who have no experience in dealing with such things , or a Templar who trains all his life to protect people from the abuse of magical abillties.

[dragonflight288]

If the mages wouldn't be vulnerable to demonic possession, accidentantly hurting others cause of untrained magic and being killed by fearful peasants I'd be all for mage freedom. But since they are vulnerable to that all there must be Circle system that protect others from them and them from others and also themselves. You can always put down a sword and never pick it again but you can't put away magic and whispering demons.

 

Which is an argument to place mage apprentices, untrained, or weak willed into a center until they are fully trained and can show they can handle their powers. Not to prevent them from marriage, take away any children they have immediately at birth, discourage relationships, or to beat them for talking to visiting civilians. 

 

Once a mage proves they can resist demons via the Harrowing, there is no longer a need to keep them locked up. There's nothing wrong with giving them permission to live in a nearby town or a city with a templar garrison, offer magical services such as healing, serve in the army, or whatnot, so long as they check in with the templars and the templars have the right to check in on them. 

 

And if magical paranoia and hatred is strong enough among the populace, that'll likely make the mage more willing to return to the Circle and have a lot less fuss about the conditions there when they know firsthand how much they're feared and hated by the common man or woman. 

 

One of the biggest issues for the mages is that they are completely and utterly cut off from the outside world in the Circle's. They've got a lot of luxeries, but all they can see are how much they're oppressed and how few rights they have, because pretty much from really early childhood to old age they live in a tower, guarded and watched by an order that is trained to put them down on a second's notice, many of whom discuss it with glee, and are watched at all times, with a great many rules, including if they can or cannot enter relationships based on the Knight-Commander in charge. 

 

It also doesn't help that the mages have no one to voice complaints to if the templars in charge of the Circle's abuse their power. 

 

But if the barrier of awareness is removed, and mages get to experience the world outside of the Circle's, within reason of course, many may actually prefer the Circle's once they find out that the grass isn't greener on the other side. 

[dragonflight288]

The core of the issue is that you both see it as a punishment, when it is anything but.

 

The separating and training until the Harrowing is understandable. But a lot of the policies instituted, and seen in practice in-game and in the novels, are way too excessive, and they do punish mages for crimes they are not responsible for. 

 

I mean, Kirkwall for example, getting beaten just for talking to a civilian visitor? Illegal tranquilizations that would be super easy to resolve since all Meredith would have had to do was look into her own records since she and Orsino both have to authorize the rite and then compare that to who the tranquil are and how many there are. And the Right of Annulment getting called to slaughter every man, woman and child for the actions of a single apostate who was right there in front of Meredith. Posters may argue back and forth about blood magic running rampant, but that is not the justification Meredith gives to try and get the Champion to support her. 

 

And the templars have next to no oversight when they abuse their power if the Knight-Commander chooses to turn a blind eye, or the Seekers are incompetent. 

 

Taking a security measure because of the danger of magic is one thing, but overdoing it with excessive punishments that far exceed the action is quite another, and it won't take long for the mages, and their sympathizers, to find more fault in the security and the guards, and hold it more responsible for problems than the danger of something that might happen. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The separating and training until the Harrowing is understandable. But a lot of the policies instituted, and seen in practice in-game and in the novels, are way too excessive, and they do punish mages for crimes they are not responsible for. 

Uldred is living (well not anymore) proof that letting mages go after their Harrowing is simply not sufficient.

 

I mean, Kirkwall for example, getting beaten just for talking to a civilian visitor? Illegal tranquilizations that would be super easy to resolve since all Meredith would have had to do was look into her own records since she and Orsino both have to authorize the rite and then compare that to who the tranquil are and how many there are. And the Right of Annulment getting called to slaughter every man, woman and child for the actions of a single apostate who was right there in front of Meredith. Posters may argue back and forth about blood magic running rampant, but that is not the justification Meredith gives to try and get the Champion to support her. 

 

Kirkwall was a steaming cesspit of lies, rumors and untruths. Mages were obviosuly NOT beaten for talking to visitors, since we talk to multiple mages, and they show no fear of punishment for doing so. Templars also thought that their vigil was lethal. Point is, don't put too much stock in rumors and hearsay, especially not in Kirkwall.

And the annulment of the Gallows, is not really a prime example of the use of the right. It is pretty much widely known that Meredith would have been condemned for her actions afterwards, if she had survived. If you instead look at the example of Kinloch Hold, then there is a perfect example of the use (or lack thereof) of the Rigght of Annulment. The tower was overrun with Abominations, and the risk of a catastrophic magical incident grew ever higher.

 

And the templars have next to no oversight when they abuse their power if the Knight-Commander chooses to turn a blind eye, or the Seekers are incompetent. 

 

If those who are supposed to provide oversight turns the blind eye, then EVERYONE is practically wtihout oversight. I could sue this exact same example with the Circle of Dairsmuid. The Templars there chose to turn the blind eye on abhorent practices of forcing spirits and demons into girls, yet I don't attempt to make broad statements about ALL mages, based on this particualr instance.

 

Taking a security measure because of the danger of magic is one thing, but overdoing it with excessive punishments that far exceed the action is quite another, and it won't take long for the mages, and their sympathizers, to find more fault in the security and the guards, and hold it more responsible for problems than the danger of something that might happen. 

 

I have yet to see punishment of mages which didn't fit the crime (in a medieval setting), other than Meredith's call for the annulment.

[MisterJB]

I don't get the logic either, and I'm not afro-american. Just doesn't make sense to me to punish people for what they haven't actually done. 

They aren't being punished. The Circle was about prevention, not punishment.

[Sports72Xtrm]

You do realise that the Harrowing is in the moment, and a mage is a dangerous all of his life. He can always make a deal with a demon. No matter the Harrowing.

Apparently not dangerous enough for you keep them alive so you can exploit them.

[Panda]

<snip>

 

I don't disagree with this, I'm all for expanding rights of mages but not to point of mage freedom as no compulsary education of magic. Good schooling system could be enough if there was templar guard force or Seeker hunting mages who commit crimes too.

[raging_monkey]

Apparently not dangerous enough for you keep them alive so you can exploit them.

lock us up give us limited licenses to use our skills but when a war breaks out lets use em til its over right?