1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Yunaleska]

I always play as a mage in almost every games that give you a choice including DA but i will side with Templar. Mage in DA is very dangerous to society.

[Dark Helmet]

Templars 110%.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Not sure what you mean cause things can be never perfect cause humans aren't. If both sides don't want compromise they are childish and thus I don't want to associate with them ^^

 

take the Geth/Quarian war that was not a compromise everybody just gets what they want its all perfect.

that's not a choice that's..............i don't want to cry.

 

a real compromise would have involved so uneasy alliance ground given and taken, rules against armaments exclusion zones etc. instead enemies that have fought and killed each other for a few centuries basically hold hands and sing kumbaya and everything is resolved in a nice tiny little bow and now this?

 

a war that's been building for a thousand years and finally erupted and the inquisitor just sashay's into the room and says a few kind words and everything ends perfectly?

 

the very thought makes me nauseous, the games rated for adults it's not some saturday morning cartoon. 

if there's going to be a compromise it has to a proper one. Nitty-Gritty business where nether side is happy and they only accept this tentative peace to avoid further bloodshed that's compromise.

 

having all the mages return to the circle which is now just a school and they get to go home on weekends (despite the risks everyone has been so afraid of) while templars promise to be nice boys and girls and never rape or murder anyone ever again and we all forget this nasty business is not a compromise.......... It's an "i win button".

 

a thousand years this has been building, it shouldn't be resolved unless one side crushes the other or forces them to compromise.

if your going to do it you have to do it properly from land rights, to people being handed over for execution trial for political reasons. make it real.

[lil yonce]

I side with the mages. I don't have any faith in the current templar order after what they've done, and I don't know why anyone would put them in charge of the mages ever again.

 

There would have to be significant changes to the Circle system before I'd call mages going back to the towers under templar watch a compromise - like scaling back templar presence in all towers in both power and numbers.

 

And what one side considers compromise, the other side very may not, so maybe both sides have thought about ending the war with a compromise but realistically it just isn't going to work out.

 

And for my inquisitor, I'd like the option to not compromise.

[Panda]

take the Geth/Quarian war that was not a compromise everybody just gets what they want its all perfect.

that's not a choice that's..............i don't want to cry.

 

a real compromise would have involved so uneasy alliance ground given and taken, rules against armaments exclusion zones etc. instead enemies that have fought and killed each other for a few centuries basically hold hands and sing kumbaya and everything is resolved in a nice tiny little bow and now this?

 

a war that's been building for a thousand years and finally erupted and the inquisitor just sashay's into the room and says a few kind words and everything ends perfectly?

 

the very thought makes me nauseous, the games rated for adults it's not some saturday morning cartoon. 

if there's going to be a compromise it has to a proper one. Nitty-Gritty business where nether side is happy and they only accept this tentative peace to avoid further bloodshed that's compromise.

 

having all the mages return to the circle which is now just a school and they get to go home on weekends (despite the risks everyone has been so afraid of) while templars promise to be nice boys and girls and never rape or murder anyone ever again and we all forget this nasty business is not a compromise.......... It's an "i win button".

 

a thousand years this has been building, it shouldn't be resolved unless one side crushes the other or forces them to compromise.

if your going to do it you have to do it properly from land rights, to people being handed over for execution trial for political reasons. make it real.

 

The problem there is that the one side crushes other isn't really option. Mages will still be born no matter how many of them are killed. If the opposite happens, complete mage freedom, well instead of templars it will be common folk who will grap swords.

 

The issue isn't black and white and I don't think the solution can be either. However these systems; Circle and templar order have worked together centuries, just in different kind of success in different time and place. The whole war itself is stupid and like wars in real world; it should stop somewhere. Outcome should be shades of grey but not end in extermination of either sides since that doesn't just work. Rather than that I would like to see different choices within those shades of grey, outcomes where system gets stricter for mages or less strict for mages and templar orders role will be changed someway too. That's not childish to me at all, childish is looking permanent solution in problem where there can't be one instead of seeking compromise.

[Hagel]

Templars are a bunch of hypocrites in my opinion so I usually side with the mages. My stand would be that it's better to teach young mages how to control their power so they can function within society.

[berrieh]

I'm pro-Circle, but I believe it needs additional oversight and safeguards against abuses. I usually side with the mages in-game, just because I understand their plight, but I don't think just allowing them freedom works on a systemic level. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

People say the Circles were a success because it lasted so long but I see people looking the other way at abuses just so they can maintain absolute control and order and that is just distasteful to me. i don't know how one allows him or herself to be imprisoned, lobotomized, raped, coerced, and still be servile to their oppressors and look at themselves in the mirror with any sense of dignity. At some point, I'd rather choose violence then a servile existence. Mages all the way.

[earl of the north]

Templars are a bunch of hypocrites in my opinion so I usually side with the mages. My stand would be that it's better to teach young mages how to control their power so they can function within society.

 

 

Templars are hypocritical in that they accuse all mages of being blood mages and then are heavy handed causing many mages to turn to blood magic.

 

Mages are equally hypocritical in that they constantly complain about Templar oppression and then seem to constantly turn to blood magic once they are free of Templar control proving the Templars were right in the first place.

 

Young mages are taught to control their power it was actually kind of the point of the Circle system to allow the training of mages in a controlled safe enviroment.....okay that system got screwed up over 1,000 years but what system wouldn't?

 

Both sides are to blame for the current conflict, both are needed to end it.

 

I just like to point out as well that there has never been a fuctioning  society in Thedas that many pro-mages people want....mages have always either been controlled or have been in control (and mages have a history of commiting the worst atrocities in the history of Thedas while in control).

[Steeltrap]

This will sound crazy but I see so much similarity in the Mage vs Templar debate with Human vs Mutants in X-Men.

 

The school is the Circle, Magneto is a blood mage and the army are Templars.

 

The reason I say this is because I think the x-men movies do a good job of explaining why It is not right to judge everybody on the actions of a few. We see time and time again that it is the good mutants/mages themselves that save the world from the evil mutants/blood mages. The Templars are incapable of handling the tougher Mages, without good Mages the world would be destroyed many times over. Mutants like Mages are a natural occurance, killing all mages does not rid the world of them and just makes any new borns turn evil because they do not know any other life.

 

The x-men movies also show why a school/circle is required because without guidance we saw how difficult it was to control their powers, the same applies to Mages.

 

Good Mages understand why we need the circle so they should be able to govern themselves like in X-Men.

[Yermogi]

I would not be against the institution of the Circle as such, but I would be firmly against the treatment of mages and the current implementation of Templars. To my mind, the reason the whole war started in the first place would be because of the gross mistreatment of the mages at the hands of a failed system which would need to be seriously redone.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Mage superiority. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

The problem there is that the one side crushes other isn't really option. Mages will still be born no matter how many of them are killed. If the opposite happens, complete mage freedom, well instead of templars it will be common folk who will grap swords.

 

The issue isn't black and white and I don't think the solution can be either. However these systems; Circle and templar order have worked together centuries, just in different kind of success in different time and place. The whole war itself is stupid and like wars in real world; it should stop somewhere. Outcome should be shades of grey but not end in extermination of either sides since that doesn't just work. Rather than that I would like to see different choices within those shades of grey, outcomes where system gets stricter for mages or less strict for mages and templar orders role will be changed someway too. That's not childish to me at all, childish is looking permanent solution in problem where there can't be one instead of seeking compromise.

 

and what are these shades of grey?

you outlined exactly what i said would happen but are trying to frame it as having weight, it doesn't it cheapens the entire plot.

it defeats the entire purpose mages freedoms vs mundane fears conflict.

 

the comprise has to real. returning to the circles is exactly the fairytale ending i brought up. that's not a compromise, compromise would be surrendering land the mages give in to with what they wanted, self governance in those areas with autonomy. but aren't allowed to enter citys or towns etc, with templars and mages alike guarding boarder crossings.

 

something where piece is fragile where neither side is satisfied, yet can still point to a win. the entire point has been their can be no more compromise that mages would no longer accept the systematic oppression they lived under and nobody would listen so respect that there has be massive concessions for them to stop.

 

if their going back to the circle then respect the plot have them go back with a templar blade at their back. don't have them just give in because people don't want repercussions. 

 

Likewise the Templars have gone against the divine to hunt down the mages they risk suffering the wraith of the chantry all to stop mages getting independence expecting them to allow the mages to fundamentally change the circle system to dictate their power. Why would they go to war in the first? if where doing this then have the templars swept aside and mages decided how the circles are run and by whom.

 

suggesting a return to how things were with abit of pull here and push their is childish, there's no point to the plot. its wrapping everything up in a neat little bow and not solving anything. 

[Panda]

This will sound crazy but I see so much similarity in the Mage vs Templar debate with Human vs Mutants in X-Men.

 

The school is the Circle, Magneto is a blood mage and the army are Templars.

 

The reason I say this is because I think the x-men movies do a good job of explaining why It is not right to judge everybody on the actions of a few. We see time and time again that it is the good mutants/mages themselves that save the world from the evil mutants/blood mages. The Templars are incapable of handling the tougher Mages, without good Mages the world would be destroyed many times over. Mutants like Mages are a natural occurance, killing all mages does not rid the world of them and just makes any new borns turn evil because they do not know any other life.

 

The x-men movies also show why a school/circle is required because without guidance we saw how difficult it was to control their powers, the same applies to Mages.

 

Good Mages understand why we need the circle so they should be able to govern themselves like in X-Men.

 

There is similarities and there is other universums where similar situation also occurs but I think there is couple differences between X-men and mages. One is that X-mens aren't in threat of getting possessed by demons and other is that there really isn't much "superhero" mages around fighting against bad mages in Thedas, no that job is almost left for templars and people like Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor (who might or might not to be mages). So because of these cases templar order is needed and the education aka Circle has to be mandatory for mages In other parts I agree with you.

[Esteed789]

I stand where I've always stood, against tyranny and oppression in any form.  Mages deserve to have a fair shot at life, a life where they're allowed to learn and practice their art without fear of being put down for looking at someone wrong, and those that abuse their gift need to be put down for the good of all.  These two viewpoints aren't anathema to each other, but extremists on both sides have forced an open war because, apparently, compromise and cooperation are both dirty words in the lexicons of 99% of both mages and templars.

 

So, if I were a citizen in Thedas at the start of Inquisition?  I stand for sanity.  I stand for peace.  I stand for people reaching beyond their often flawed, broken natures and at least trying to aspire to something greater.  Which means I'd probably die a few minutes after I showed up because it doesn't seem like that viewpoint survives for very long in Thedas.

[Hagel]

Templars are hypocritical in that they accuse all mages of being blood mages and then are heavy handed causing many mages to turn to blood magic.

 

Mages are equally hypocritical in that they constantly complain about Templar oppression and then seem to constantly turn to blood magic once they are free of Templar control proving the Templars were right in the first place.

 

Young mages are taught to control their power it was actually kind of the point of the Circle system to allow the training of mages in a controlled safe enviroment.....okay that system got screwed up over 1,000 years but what system wouldn't?

 

Both sides are to blame for the current conflict, both are needed to end it.

 

I just like to point out as well that there has never been a fuctioning  society in Thedas that many pro-mages people want....mages have always either been controlled or have been in control (and mages have a history of commiting the worst atrocities in the history of Thedas while in control).

 

Templars are hypocrites because they use phylacteries, which is a type of blood magic to prevent mages from escaping and become blood mages, because they think blood magic is wrong. I'm not sure you know what hypocrite means. The examples you gave seems more like an counterproductive strategy, not hypocrisy.

 

Young mages should be tought, not imprisoned in my opinion. Well of course there is a grey tone to the entire conflict, there always is. About your last argument, Thedas is also full of apostates that live in peace. Saying that mages have to be in control or be controlled is to black and white for me. 

[Panda]

and what are these shades of grey?

you outlined exactly what i said would happen but are trying to frame it as having weight, it doesn't it cheapens the entire plot.

it defeats the entire purpose mages freedoms vs mundane fears conflict.

 

the comprise has to real. returning to the circles is exactly the fairytale ending i brought up. that's not a compromise, compromise would be surrendering land the mages give in to with what they wanted, self governance in those areas with autonomy. but aren't allowed to enter citys or towns etc, with templars and mages alike guarding boarder crossings.

 

something where piece is fragile where neither side is satisfied, yet can still point to a win. the entire point has been their can be no more compromise that mages would no longer accept the systematic oppression they lived under and nobody would listen so respect that there has be massive concessions for them to stop.

 

if their going back to the circle then respect the plot have them go back with a templar blade at their back. don't have them just give in because people don't want repercussions. 

 

Likewise the Templars have gone against the divine to hunt down the mages they risk suffering the wraith of the chantry all to stop mages getting independence expecting them to allow the mages to fundamentally change the circle system to dictate their power. Why would they go to war in the first? if where doing this then have the templars swept aside and mages decided how the circles are run and by whom.

 

suggesting a return to how things were with abit of pull here and push their is childish, there's no point to the plot. its wrapping everything up in a neat little bow and not solving anything. 

 

Uh huh. The thing can't be solved, there is no permanent solution, the conflict will always exist no matter what the outcome is (unless all of Thedas became Tevinter, then there would be new conflicts). The compromise what you pointed out is goal of isolationist mages but that hardly would work. Mages are born every side of Thedas, should they just be poured to on nation after mage talents are discovered? What about non-mage born in this mage society, should they be pushed outside of mage nation? Exiling people cause they are mages hardly is very humanistic solution either to the problem.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Uh huh. The thing can't be solved, there is no permanent solution, the conflict will always exist no matter what the outcome is (unless all of Thedas became Tevinter, then there would be new conflicts). The compromise what you pointed out is goal of isolationist mages but that hardly would work. Mages are born every side of Thedas, should they just be poured to on nation after mage talents are discovered? What about non-mage born in this mage society, should they be pushed outside of mage nation? Exiling people cause they are mages hardly is very humanistic solution either to the problem.

 

which is why its called a compromise, it solves the problem that triggered the war (respectfully) without solving all the problems.

but at least it respects the plot.

If you want mages back in the circle crush them and drive them there.

dont have them go, yeap totally trust the mundanes no to systomatic subjugate us again, this is just perfect. 

[Caramacchiato]

I'd support the Circle system, but it does need to be reformed. If the Chantry wants to prevent another Kirkwall incident, they need to make the Circle less of a prison and more like a place of learning, where young mages can learn to control their powers and resist possession. The Templars would still be needed of course, since there will be those mages who want nothing more than to recreate the Imperium, and unfortunately, those mages who aren't strong enough to protect themselves from demonic influence. That's what the Templars should be: guardians, protectors of magi and commonfolk alike, not just jailers who scare others into obedience. 

[Panda]

which is why its called a compromise, it solves the problem that triggered the war (respectfully) without solving all the problems.

but at least it respects the plot.

If you want mages back in the circle crush them and drive them there.

dont have them go, yeap totally trust the mundanes no to systomatic subjugate us again, this is just perfect. 

 

I don't the compromise is that far and returning to circle system is out of question. Lot of mages in Asunder wanted that but the situation just didn't let them. At least I will do my best in Inquisition to work with mages and templars alike and trying to resurrect circle system since it was the compromise and although flawed it worked.

[SgtSteel91]

For my first Inquisitor (a non-mage), she thinks that a magic problem like The Breach requires a magic solution, and the Mages are all about coming up with magic solutions. She also thinks that while the Templars will be very effective in fighting the Demons coming out of The Breach, it's only containing the problem. The Breach needs to be sealed, not contained, and she thinks the Mages will help her do just that. But she wants both sides under the Inquisition's banner, ideally.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I don't the compromise is that far and returning to circle system is out of question. Lot of mages in Asunder wanted that but the situation just didn't let them. At least I will do my best in Inquisition to work with mages and templars alike and trying to resurrect circle system since it was the compromise and although flawed it worked.

 

but its wasn't the compromise at all, no mage (outside of tevinter) ever got a say. it was die or go to the circle.

[herkles]

but its wasn't the compromise at all, no mage (outside of tevinter) ever got a say. it was die or go to the circle.

 

does everyone forget about the Mortalitasi? they are not

[Jazzpha]

Staunchly pro-Circle. My human Mage will reflect that stance, and side with whomever reflects that ideology best in DAI, be it Mages or Templars. But Rhys and Adrian don't seem much like Pro-Circle folks, so welp.

 

Although I do wonder if Rhys would have been more Pro-Circle if the Mage-Templar War predestination didn't mandate his support for open rebellion, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Tevinter Soldier]

does everyone forget about the Mortalitasi? they are not

 

because the chantry holds no real power their and if the rumours are correct the Mortalitasi rule that nation through a puppet king.

 

that is hardly a compromise that is magi winning.