1428 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

I don't think GRRM dever wrote a burn victim rape.
Someone should inform him Ramsay Snow is lacking a caracter trait.

[raging_monkey]

*rubs hand* No, No you've, I've. I shouldn't have hit you like that it's just...well....I'm a Mage we don't get to use our hands very often and I well....got excited in the moment.
 
I look at it like this: Mages if given the choice would live in "peace" they would go about there own creation of a system probably similar to the Circle but with a improved collection of wine and better customer service. The Templars however seem to have their minds set upon bloodshed I'm convinced they would gladly see this conflict dragged on and extended if it meant killing everyone: Mage and Mage supporter alike. It's like the Templar "peace" outcome in they're mind is killing everyone.
 
The inherit disproportional desire for bloodshed is what makes me angry when I see them complacent Mages, oooh I hate me a complacent Mage.

such a tease.. lol XD

But agree with you apo but while im all for rebellion and liberation. We are playing into their hands the factionizing, and fighting them it just gives them more fuel to fight... ahh but this me being soft again... lets just fight it out to see who wins. I dont mind "acceptable losses"

[Red of Rivia]

I don't think GRRM dever wrote a burn victim rape.
Someone should inform him Ramsay Snow is lacking a caracter trait.

[berrieh]

So because of what they might do we punish them? Still cant understand the logic, but maybe thats my afro american heritage speaking

 

They aren't punished - or shouldn't be generally - by the Circle system.

 

Part of the problem is that so many of the views people have seen of the Circle are from Kirkwall (where it was extreme from the beginning, according to the mages there who had experienced other Circles) and immediately post-Kirkwall (where an apostate mage with Circle affiliations blew up the Chantry and the First Enchanter and many mages turned to blood magic, this inciting fears in Templars, and where the Lord-Commander Templar had gone crazy, thus inciting fears in Mages). Things were tense. But there was no reason to believe a peaceful resolution couldn't have been reached and the temporary restrictions lifted. 

 

If you read into all the lore and listen to what the mages actually say about the pre-Kirkwall Circles, you will note that the mages are treated fairly well. They have luxuries; elves and humans are treated much as equals; they are trained - very few in Thedas learn to read, for instance, but every mage does; they have a College for association; they vote; they rule themselves; the First Enchanters, who are elected, have a lot of say in various matters, including Harrowings, who is made Tranquil, how to police, etc. Many FEs and Lord-Commanders had good relations (the one before Seeker Lambert arrives at the White Spire had a good relationship with the First Enchanter and many mages and was removed for allowing transgressions to occur because of it). 

 

Yes, they must adhere to restrictions. But to call that punishment, slavery or oppression misses the definitions of those words. Restrictions are not the same thing as slavery, oppression, or even punishment. The restrictions are created for the safety of the public and the safety of the mages. I think we could examine individual policies, tweak them, and make them better, but I think citing Kirkwall as a reason the Circle system doesn't work ignores that it was an outlier. Of course, both the mages and templars were idiots and acted precisely in the worst possible fashion for their cause. 

 

Ah, human nature. 

 

Especially ironic to this conversation is the fact that if you are an Elf in Thedas, the Circle is the absolute best life you can have. 

 

I mean, Kirkwall for example, getting beaten just for talking to a civilian visitor? Illegal tranquilizations that would be super easy to resolve since all Meredith would have had to do was look into her own records since she and Orsino both have to authorize the rite and then compare that to who the tranquil are and how many there are. And the Right of Annulment getting called to slaughter every man, woman and child for the actions of a single apostate who was right there in front of Meredith. Posters may argue back and forth about blood magic running rampant, but that is not the justification Meredith gives to try and get the Champion to support her. 

 

1. Who gets beaten for talking to a civilian visitor? I do agree the Kirkwall Circle seems entirely too secretive. 

2. Who is illegally made Tranquil? When you go on the mission, you generally realize that's just Anders's theory and that really the Tranquil Solution was never approved by anyone. I totally agree abuses by individual Templars should be investigated, of course, and, sadly, I'm sure such abuses exist. 

3. Meredith is red lyrium crazy by the time she calls for the Rite, and it's made pretty clear that if she lived, she would've been in big trouble for it. 

 

As a side note - I still don't get why she allows Orsino to leave to "get the Circle ready" when she plans on killing them all. Why not kill him on the streets? 

 

Actually, no. Neither the templars nor the Chantry can command a Circle to go to war. Request, yes. But not command. During Origins, it was Cailen himself who asked the Circle for help to fight the Blight, and First Enchanter Irving who agreed the Circle would help. The Chantry was not happy at all that Cailen did so, but couldn't do anything about it.

 

This is an excellent point. Additionally, the mages often win political concessions and support because of their help during Blights and various wars. 

 

She's in another country. Expecting her to personally stop this is like expecting FDR to personally bring the hammer down on war criminals in the Pacific, except even more difficult due to the lack of a decent communications network.

 

I think it's way too early to tell if Fiona is 1) out of her depth and can't get control, 2) allowing rampage, or 3) just in a situation where she cannot logically be expected to control. However, just like I would never condemn all mages for the actions of some, I also won't condemn all templars for the actions of some. I'm interested to see. I know there will be some dark portrayals on both sides, but I also hope we see the good of both sides. 

[raging_monkey]

They aren't punished - or shouldn't be generally - by the Circle system.
 
Part of the problem is that so many of the views people have seen of the Circle are from Kirkwall (where it was extreme from the beginning, according to the mages there who had experienced other Circles) and immediately post-Kirkwall (where an apostate mage with Circle affiliations blew up the Chantry and the First Enchanter and many mages turned to blood magic, this inciting fears in Templars, and where the Lord-Commander Templar had gone crazy, thus inciting fears in Mages). Things were tense. But there was no reason to believe a peaceful resolution couldn't have been reached and the temporary restrictions lifted. 
 
If you read into all the lore and listen to what the mages actually say about the pre-Kirkwall Circles, you will note that the mages are treated fairly well. They have luxuries; elves and humans are treated much as equals; they are trained - very few in Thedas learn to read, for instance, but every mage does; they have a College for association; they vote; they rule themselves; the First Enchanters, who are elected, have a lot of say in various matters, including Harrowings, who is made Tranquil, how to police, etc. Many FEs and Lord-Commanders had good relations (the one before Seeker Lambert arrives at the White Spire had a good relationship with the First Enchanter and many mages and was removed for allowing transgressions to occur because of it). 
 
Yes, they must adhere to restrictions. But to call that punishment, slavery or oppression misses the definitions of those words. Restrictions are not the same thing as slavery, oppression, or even punishment. The restrictions are created for the safety of the public and the safety of the mages. I think we could examine individual policies, tweak them, and make them better, but I think citing Kirkwall as a reason the Circle system doesn't work ignores that it was an outlier. Of course, both the mages and templars were idiots and acted precisely in the worst possible fashion for their cause. 
 
Ah, human nature. 
 
Especially ironic to this conversation is the fact that if you are an Elf in Thedas, the Circle is the absolute best life you can have. 
 

 
1. Who gets beaten for talking to a civilian visitor? I do agree the Kirkwall Circle seems entirely too secretive. 
2. Who is illegally made Tranquil? When you go on the mission, you generally realize that's just Anders's theory and that really the Tranquil Solution was never approved by anyone. I totally agree abuses by individual Templars should be investigated, of course, and, sadly, I'm sure such abuses exist. 
3. Meredith is red lyrium crazy by the time she calls for the Rite, and it's made pretty clear that if she lived, she would've been in big trouble for it. 
 
As a side note - I still don't get why she allows Orsino to leave to "get the Circle ready" when she plans on killing them all. Why not kill him on the streets? 
 

 
This is an excellent point. Additionally, the mages often win political concessions and support because of their help during Blights and various wars. 
 

 
I think it's way too early to tell if Fiona is 1) out of her depth and can't get control, 2) allowing rampage, or 3) just in a situation where she cannot logically be expected to control. However, just like I would never condemn all mages for the actions of some, I also won't condemn all templars for the actions of some. I'm interested to see. I know there will be some dark portrayals on both sides, but I also hope we see the good of both sides.

cant say i agree with you all over but i understand your stance on the situation and respect your opinion

[Apostate.]

The things is it isn't like reforms weren't asked for previously to the rebellion, obviously tweaking the existing system is better than this **** storm we got going on now. Talking to various Mages in the games mainly origins it's clear that many felt the Circle wasn't progressing in a meaningful way or fast enough. Or at least that was always my impressions of it, course idiots like Bloodmages only hindered any efforts 'good/normal' mages were attempting but I basically get the feeling that Mages were already seeking changes it just wasn't happening.

 

Templar Mindset DA:O/part of DA2: "You want to change the system? Lol nope, systems been in place for 1,000's of years besides y'all are dangerous."

 

Templar Mindset rest of DA2: "You want to change the system?(Hold a vote): "I'll gut you like a fish where you stand."

[raging_monkey]

The things is it isn't like reforms weren't asked for previously to the rebellion, obviously tweaking the existing system is better than this **** storm we got going on now. Talking to various Mages in the games mainly origins it's clear that many felt the Circle wasn't progressing in a meaningful way or fast enough. Or at least that was always my impressions of it, course idiots like Bloodmages only hindered any efforts 'good/normal' mages were attempting but I basically get the feeling that Mages were already seeking changes it just wasn't happening.
 
Templar Mindset DA:O/part of DA2: "You want to change the system? Lol nope, systems been in place for 1,000's of years besides y'all are dangerous."
 
Templar Mindset rest of DA2: "You want to change the system?(Hold a vote): "I'll gut you like a fish where you stand."

idk dao templars were fairly moderate but kirkwall was insane

And if a system has been in place for x time, people often dont wish for change. Humans stick to things that are familiar

[thesuperdarkone2]

Considering a note in one of the prestreams said that a significant number of templars are advocating mage GENOCIDE (and this is REGULAR Templars), I support the mages wholeheartedly

[Apostate.]

idk dao templars were fairly moderate but kirkwall was insane

And if a system has been in place for x time, people often dont wish for change. Humans stick to things that are familiar

History is filled with bitter old men who went kicking and screaming bemoaning change and its necessity.

"Bah why do we need a wheel when we have our two feet"

"What good is a club when I have my fist"

"What is the point of iron?"

"Steele? pfft I trust my iron"

....and so on

[raging_monkey]

Considering a note in one of the prestreams said that a significant number of templars are advocating mage GENOCIDE (and this is REGULAR Templars), I support the mages wholeheartedly

what?

[Nashina]

I think the mage circle is a good idea, young children no matter who they were or what background they had were sent to a circle and given a bed, food and training. 

If you were born in an alienage you may have gone hungry and had to put up with racisim and violence.

 

I believe the problem lies with the Chantry teaching, it socially isolates mages, puts the fear of the maker in people about mages and they believe all sorts of ridiculous things. (As evidenced in DA:O when you confront the toll collector bandits in front of lothering, if you are a mage and tell them so, one of them runs away thinking you'll turn him into a frog).

The chantry does wrong by the templars, forcing templars to become dependent on lyrium, keeping a tight leash on the lyrium trade (it is essentially a addictive and toxic drug).

It also fosters the view that mages are to be feared and loathed by their very existence. 

For that reason I feel the real problem in Theadas is the Chantry and their teachings, they are actively harming the population.

Yes there are horrible mages just as there are horrible templars, It is simplistic to say the templars are at fault since the chantry turns a blind eye to the faults of the templars, because they do not care about mages.

I think the chantry prefers to keep the mages subjugated just like they do with the templars, They enjoy far too much power in the world

So for these reasons I will side with the mages always, i believe they can self police and if given space and proper mentoring without chantry interference we could see good things from them and hopefully to be respected members of society one day.

 

[raging_monkey]

History is filled with bitter old men who went kicking and screaming bemoaning change and its necessity.
"Bah why do we need a wheel when we have our two feet"
"What good is a club when I have my fist"
"What is the point of iron?"
"Steele? pfft I trust my iron"
....and so on

sadly truebut i was being poetic lol

[Apostate.]

For that reason I feel the real problem in Theadas is the Chantry and their teachings, they are actively harming the population.

Yes there are horrible mages just as there are horrible templars, It is simplistic to say the templars are at fault since the chantry turns a blind eye to the faults of the templars, because they do not care about mages.

I think the chantry prefers to keep the mages subjugated just like they do with the templars, They enjoy far too much power in the world

So for these reasons I will side with the mages always, i believe they can self police and if given space and proper mentoring without chantry interference we could see good things from them and hopefully to be respected members of society one day.

I agree 100% very well said. You get caught up bemoaning the otherside depending who you personally choose to support but clearly as the sole authoritative power active between both groups blame, larger amounts, falls on the Chantry. Wow. Great post. Honestly felt like this reading it:

[raging_monkey]

I agree 100% very well said. You get caught up bemoaning the otherside depending who you personally choose to support but clearly as the sole authoritative power active between both groups blame, larger amounts, falls on the Chantry. Wow. Great post. Honestly felt like this reading it:

best movie ever imo a true picture of templars that go back... * up down fist bump*

[trying_touch]

I agree 100% very well said. You get caught up bemoaning the otherside depending who you personally choose to support but clearly as the sole authoritative power active between both groups blame, larger amounts, falls on the Chantry. Wow. Great post. Honestly felt like this reading it:

All the more devastating that the Divine, who could potentially change everything and was supportive of a new way of life for the believers of the Chantry, has been killed.

 

Granted, I do believe, to change the world the way the Divine wanted it to, she would need an apocalyptic miracle, like this sky hole in DAI.

[thruaglassdarkly]

I'm pro-freedom of choice, so I'm not very inclined to side with the Templars.  I'm more inclined to side with the mages, tbh.  The whole thing about being forced to go to the Circle regardless and being guilty until proven innocent when it comes to being accused of practicing blood magic kind of makes the whole concept of the Circle and the Templars seem like something else that gets mages to turn to demons and blood magic, whether intentional or not.  Well, to me, anyway.

 

Don't really feel like getting into a huge debate about Templars vs. Mages so I'm just going to post this gif and be on my way:

 

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I don't think this thread is going to end well.

 

Good on you @Gamer07219.  There is nothing worse than finding yourself in an argument about a hypothetical that can never be true.  So far, things have been pretty civil, but I'm only on page one, so we'll see.

 

 

 

depends on who i am in Thedas I cant logically be who i am in the real world My ideals and pov don't cross over to the time period i don't believe in kings or gods I enjoy a very liberal view point non of these things translate to thedas where your average person has bugger all education.
 
nobody is truly an individual where all shaped by or society. which is why society must first safe guard the rights of all individuals. so that every modicum of individuality comes is prtected. if i were somehow transported into thedas with my modern POV i would likely stand with Mages because it is just plain wrong you don't persecute people based on what they might do, not matter how powerful.
 
too quote someone i disagree with on many things:

 

This.  I lean toward pro-mage because I'm against restricting the basic human rights of someone just because they might be dangerous.  But that stance is influenced by the community I was raised in, the family I was raised in, the values I have gleaned from these and my own personal experience, and living in a universe that barely resembles Thedas.  In some alternate universe where people actually can call fire down from the heaven's using only there minds, I might have  been mixed up with those good chantry going folk who raise a suspicious eyebrow to all things arcane.  Its a difficult hypothetical because I'm having hard time finding an analog in reality.  People can be born physically stronger, or with a disposition toward violence, but to be able to yield that level of damage with nothing but a literal wave of the hands is a difficult thing for me to put in any real world context.  That said, I'll stay with my original stance.  Innocent until proven otherwise, or as another RPG might put it, "destruction magic is fine, just don't go burning down any buildings."

[berrieh]

The things is it isn't like reforms weren't asked for previously to the rebellion, obviously tweaking the existing system is better than this **** storm we got going on now. Talking to various Mages in the games mainly origins it's clear that many felt the Circle wasn't progressing in a meaningful way or fast enough. Or at least that was always my impressions of it, course idiots like Bloodmages only hindered any efforts 'good/normal' mages were attempting but I basically get the feeling that Mages were already seeking changes it just wasn't happening.

 

Templar Mindset DA:O/part of DA2: "You want to change the system? Lol nope, systems been in place for 1,000's of years besides y'all are dangerous."

 

Templar Mindset rest of DA2: "You want to change the system?(Hold a vote): "I'll gut you like a fish where you stand."

 

Here's the thing - a lot of these reforms only recently gained any traction among mages. 

 

The Libertarian mages were never the majority or even close and the vast majority of mages, and certainly the vast majority elected in power by the mages themselves, were pro-Circle. Now you can say, "That's not fair. Of course Circle leaders are pro-Circle." But if enough mages weren't, they could elect different leadership or join the Libertarians. Most didn't. Most were not pro-independence or clamoring for major reform for ages. You could make a case it's not fair that Apprentices don't really get a say, as it seems they didn't really in the College system. But that's as much on mages as anyone, as far as I can tell. 

 

The biggest problem I have with the Templars* (at large) is the suspension of the College. That was their big error. That said, it was a suspension. Titles were retained; fraternities still were allowed to exist - just no travel and conclaves and so forth - so it's not necessarily suggested it was a permanent decision. As to investigating Tranquility or the Harrowing, I didn't see evidence that mages were really interested in that.

 

We see some individual mages that are all, "I want to be free, apostate life for me" sure but at the end of the day, that's not how the votes fall. Not until extremist mages attempt terrorism and treachery and force templar stupidity and make it come to a brawl where NOT voting for independence is potentially voting for death. 

 

*Of course, the Templars at Kirkwall have other problems, but mages who have seen other Circles mention several times in DA2 that Kirkwall is far more extreme than many other places in terms of Circle oversight. Even there, people act like mages are routinely being abused or made tranquil but we see mages who escape, return to the Circle, and appear reasonably unharmed (not all and there are definitely problems). 

 

I guess where we vary is on the mindset. I think the Templar mindset is more like, "We do a necessary job to protect Thedas from the dangers of magic." And some also want to protect the mages themselves. And some are assholes, because some of all groups of people are. The original systems we see in DA:O show that both Templar and Mage are required to do much together. This seems to not be the case in Kirkwall, or not enough, and much less the case after Kirkwall. At this point, the problem is the templars seem to think they must STOP the trend of rebellion by facing it head on. If they were better at things like The Game, or playing at intrigue like the Divine, things might have gone differently. 

 

The funny thing is there is a very good chance I will stand with the Mages in-game, but I just don't understand the vilification of the Templars or the re-writing of history or selection of only few cases (like Anders, or only considering the Kirkwall Circle) to suggest the Circle is a bad thing. I can find far more cases of mage problems (blood magic, abominations, terrorism, slavery, corruption, oppression) than Templar problems. I mean, I can definitely find both but I find it odd that so many people are just "Freedom" with no consideration for the fact that Mage Freedom very likely leads to slavery, oppression, corruption, etc. The only slave state in Thedas is run by mages. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The conclave was only closed due Fiona's bungling.

Honestly how did she even get elected?!

[dragonflight288]

 

1. Who gets beaten for talking to a civilian visitor? I do agree the Kirkwall Circle seems entirely too secretive. 

2. Who is illegally made Tranquil? When you go on the mission, you generally realize that's just Anders's theory and that really the Tranquil Solution was never approved by anyone. I totally agree abuses by individual Templars should be investigated, of course, and, sadly, I'm sure such abuses exist. 

3. Meredith is red lyrium crazy by the time she calls for the Rite, and it's made pretty clear that if she lived, she would've been in big trouble for it. 

 

As a side note - I still don't get why she allows Orsino to leave to "get the Circle ready" when she plans on killing them all. Why not kill him on the streets? 

 

 

1. You can listen to random mages walking around the gallows. Click on one during any of the acts, more likely in Act 1, and they'll say they can't talk to you or they'll get beaten. 

2. During Act 2, you hear another random mage say that they've been put down for the Rite of Tranquility, and that can't happen because she passed her Harrowing. Also, if you loot the Knight-Lieutenant before Karl starts speaking again in Act 1 when recruiting Anders, you'll get a note from Alrik ordering his men not to go to Meredith when it came to tranquilizing Karl. There's also the woman who was made tranquil who tells her former lover that she belongs only to Alrik now. 

 

yes, I know Alrik is pretty much the one doing this, but he could easily have been caught since the Rite of Tranquility requires Meredith's and Orsino's approval, and they need to sign the Order (as per Mage origin in Origins) so Meredith could have easily caught him years before his death by simply looking at the number tranquil and comparing it to her records. 

 

3. Yes, she is Red Lyrium crazy, but as a player on my first playthrough, I had no idea of that until literally the last ten minutes of the game, and at the time, the only justification she gives me is "the people will demand blood because the Chantry was destroyed by magic." And yes, I know she would've been in trouble for it had she lived because it was not justifiable, which is exactly why none of her templars should have followed her orders and Cullen should've taken command as he does when she tries to kill the Champion. 

 

As for why....maybe she wanted in her crazed mind to make the mages panic, thus become more prone to being desperate, and thus prove her right about the Circle needing to be annulled. Or maybe she was simply waiting for reinforcements. 

 

Anywho, this has been fun debating, but I'm going on vacation tomorrow and won't be able to be back on for at least a week, so catch you all later. 

[raging_monkey]

The conclave was only closed due Fiona's bungling.
Honestly how did she even get elected?!

DEMOCRATIC PROCESS XD lol.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am standing in the only sane place.

 

Away from both nutty groups of extremists and pointing saying "This is why we cant have nice things"
 

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm wondering just how large these factions are when they joined.

I'm expecting severe losses to both sides due to the breach.

[Keroko]

Well, if the templars hadn't pursued war, none of this would have happened to begin with... however, this is the beginning of the revolution, in a fight that seems to be between renegade parties. Do what we can to remedy the situation and keep hope alive.

If the story takes place after Last Flight, at least two years have passed since the start of the revolution.
 

I think saying that they didn't realize it in such a wake that spoke of a lack of intelligence is highly premature.

Tower mages who never left the tower have that excuse. Fiona, who has travelled the world and personally knows how much of humanity treats that which is different, does not.

[-TC1989-]

I'm going to try to go in neutral, but from what I've seen from mages in the past two games... mehh.

 

In a real life situation? I don't know. If I heard a few stories of things happening similar to Hawke's mother then I would be hardcore Pro-Templar.... but honestly I can't say.

[old_dawn]

Try to bring peace and compromise between regular templars and mages. Kill the the red templars and maleficar.