1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

I do not understand this argument. Anyone in the world can potentially lose their loved one to a monster, magical or not. Fear of losing something dear is not an excuse to do whatever you want to other people just because you're afraid.

Meredith. 70 people died because a child was possessed. 70 people, not including her. A child. One who is nowhere near coming into her power. A lesser abomination. That's ridiculous. 

 

What about the people who lost their loved ones to diseases or wounds that could have been cured if healers were allowed to have clinics? Are they in any less pain because it was not a demon that cause the death? How many people in Thedas are dying every day for lack of proper medical care? Wouldn't it be something the Chantry should be striving for?

Stop feeding the mages, Chantry. All of that money should towards feeding the sick and poor all around Thedas. You might actually be on to something.

Why every time magic comes up all we hear about is blood magic and demons, while healing magic or any other kind that could have a practical use are blissfully ignored?

 

Because healers are actually used, for one thing. Eleanor thought that healing magic could save Bryce in enough time that a sword wound to the stomach wouldn't matter. Second, healers are a minority. The real danger of magic is far more prevalent.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Because healers are actually used, for one thing. Eleanor thought that healing magic could save Bryce in enough time that a sword wound to the stomach wouldn't matter. Second, healers are a minority. The real danger of magic is far more prevalent.

Quite. Healing, an extension of Creation magic, requires a level of precision far beyond the average mage. It's a rare gift.

[Senya]

Quite. Healing, an extension of Creation magic, requires a level of precision far beyond the average mage. It's a rare gift.

Gameplay and Story Segregation. It's the same reason they dropped blood magic for Inquisition. The previous games failed to include the consequences and there wasn't enough room in Inquisition for the amount of content required for one strictly optional specialization.

[Br3admax]

Not that my Inquisitor, or their allies, is average, mind you. 

[Hellion Rex]

Not that my Inquisitor, or their allies, is average, mind you. 

Oh of course not! Viv, and Knight Enchanters who have Resurgence, are sure as hell not average.

[KingTony]

why do the templar arguments always involve drugs?!

Because mage supporters run out of logical arguments pretty quickly.

[Mimilette]

Meredith. 70 people died because a child was possessed. 70 people, not including her. A child. One who is nowhere near coming into her power. A lesser abomination. That's ridiculous. 

 

 

Stop feeding the mages, Chantry. All of that money should towards feeding the sick and poor all around Thedas. You might actually be on to something.

 

Because healers are actually used, for one thing. Eleanor thought that healing magic could save Bryce in enough time that a sword wound to the stomach wouldn't matter. Second, healers are a minority. The real danger of magic is far more prevalent.

 

The example of Meredith is actually a stellar example of why the Chantry system is failing. Her family decided to hide the child ability because they were afraid of losing her. Exactly why Connor is another astounding example of how tearing apart families is such a terrible idea. Most people love their kids. Nothing will change that.

 

I do not understand you sarcasm concerning the mages being fed? Isn't the Circle earning money with Tranquil work? I am not sure I know enough about the way they are run economically so I might be wrong. Even though, I do not understand what is the relation with healing magic. The Chantry might not have the power to feed every soul on Thedas, but it sure has the capacity to give access to healing magic to citizens if it so wished to. And by citizens I mean all of them, not the already privileged like nobles.

 

The fact that healing magic is rarer is absolutely no reason to not try to use it for the greater good, since it seems this is all about, and other school of magic have most certainly practical uses that should be encouraged, instead of focusing sorely on the one bad blood magic. And even all blood mages do not fall to demons, as shown in the Last Flight.

 

I guess I'm more of a glass half full kind of person, rather than half empty.

[raging_monkey]

Because mage supporters run out of logical arguments pretty quickly.

im pro mage and i agree with that. We can do better

[KingTony]

im pro mage and i agree with that. We can do better

You have to be able to scrape up something! I love a good debate, but this one isn't shaping up well.

[raging_monkey]

You have to be able to scrape up something! I love a good debate, but this one isn't shaping up well.

it was going good earliar.. then it got tense

[Mimilette]

Because mage supporters run out of logical arguments pretty quickly.

 

You know, ridiculing "mage supporters" (whatever that means considering the vast array of opinions seen in this thread) speaks way more about you than them. I've seen some pretty solid logical arguments on both side.

Right now, the only person feeling the need to belittle the other side is you.

[The Baconer]

Grey Wardens? You keep trying.

 

You keep moving the goalposts by name-dropping different organizations and I'm the one who keeps trying?

 

And, yes, even the Grey Wardens are limited both de jure and de facto.

 

 

Nobles get tired of everything all the time. Others don't. You can't group all of them together just because a few were tired of anything. As to your other points, we have nothing to show it was anywhere near as out of control now, and peace was definitely in the cards. So yeah.

 

It's one of the factors that incited a coup in what is considered the strongest empire in Thedas. Apparently the ones who were tired were the ones that mattered.

 

It's a phrase was meant to convey that without leadership, everything went to ****, but as I'm sure you knew that, moving on.

 

Right, but it does will not absolve them, regardless of who the Inquisition sides with.

 

 

They obviously aren't right now. 

 

"Right now" it's literally open season on both them and the mages. Legally, they don't have any rights, let alone the right to secede. Of course, that they had a right to secede before is something that will be corrected after this learning experience.

 

 

And just as Saturn is morn than a government, that means nothing. They have no legal ties obligating them to remain in the Chantry if their mutual agreement is not respected. 

 

It means quite a lot, given the existence of ecclesiastical jurisdiction present in both Thedas and the time period(s) in our own world that it draws inspiration from. The rights imparted to them by the original Accord were a mistake (which is my point). Since the Inquisition is either going to be cleaning up their mess and bringing them back into the fold, or breaking their backs, either way they should not get a say in whether or not they get to retain these rights.

[Hellion Rex]

Because mage supporters run out of logical arguments pretty quickly.

Ummmm, I support mages, but I wouldn't use a drug argument against Templars...

[raging_monkey]

You know, ridiculing "mage supporters" (whatever that means considering the vast array of opinions seen in this thread) speaks way more about you than them. I've seen some pretty solid logical arguments on both side.
Right now, the only person feeling the need to belittle the other side is you.

he ment no offense it was a attempt in humour

[Br3admax]

The example of Meredith is actually a stellar example of why the Chantry system is failing. Her family decided to hide the child ability because they were afraid of losing her. Exactly why Connor is another astounding example of how tearing apart families is such a terrible idea. Most people love their kids. Nothing will change that.

It's weird. The kids taken away from peasants are happy, but the ones staying behind that lead to mass death and destruction proves it doesn't work. Wow. 

 

I do not understand you sarcasm concerning the mages being fed? Isn't the Circle earning money with Tranquil work? I am not sure I know enough about the way they are run economically so I might be wrong. Even though, I do not understand what is the relation with healing magic. The Chantry might not have the power to feed every soul on Thedas, but it sure has the capacity to give access to healing magic to citizens if it so wished to. And by citizens I mean all of them, not the already privileged like nobles.

No, the Tranquil do not pay for the entire Circle. The Chantry does. As does it pay for the upkeep of the Tower. From contributions of viewers like you. 

The fact that healing magic is rarer is absolutely no reason to not try to use it for the greater good, since it seems this is all about, and other school of magic have most certainly practical uses that should be encouraged, instead of focusing sorely on the one bad blood magic. And even all blood mages do not fall to demons, like shown in the Last Flight.

 

I guess I'm more of a glass half full kind of person, rather than half empty.

It's like you completely ignored where I showed that healing magic is definitely used. Other schools of magic also lack just about any practical use, as most magic apparently can't even be used for mundane tasks besides keeping the Everlasting Flame lit. I'm glad that a few elves can disprove the vast majority of Thedas wrong, where blood magic is either dominating society, the Dalish and Tevinter, killing innocents, or in most cases, leading to direct possession. 

 

You're more of, "I'll ignore the dangerous parts of magic because they're people," kind of person. Everyone has rules and restrictions based on their government and the danger they possess. Sorry mages can't different. 

[Mimilette]

he ment no offense it was a attempt in humour

 

Hmm, maybe so, but it did come off as extremely condescending. I love debate, but people in the "my side, their side" mindset always give me the impression they want to fight more than discuss. I stand corrected.

[raging_monkey]

Hmm, maybe so, but it did come off as extremely condescending. I love debate, but people in the "my side, their side" mindset always give me the impression they want to fight more than discuss. I stand corrected.

its a MT thread and the bsn... sadly we live to fight

[Br3admax]

You keep moving the goalposts by name-dropping different organizations and I'm the one who keeps trying?

 

And, yes, even the Grey Wardens are limited both de jure and de facto.

What you said was that no military organization can exist outside of direct control for long. The fact that you're wrong doesn't mean I'm moving the goal post. Accept that paramilitary can exist, even when they are condemned by the government and do not have to answer to anyone.

 

 

It's one of the factors that incited a coup in what is considered the strongest empire in Thedas. Apparently the ones who were tired were the ones that mattered.

 

Yeah, because Templars were what incited the problems in Orlais. Not Celene's shitty leadership and multitudes of corruption. I guess elves are a problem too then. 

Right, but it does will not absolve them, regardless of who the Inquisition sides with.

No it shouldn't. Doesn't change the fact that the Templars as we knew them, a knightly order, are not the same as the Templars here, a bunch of refugees infighting and have near starved for lyrium. All this, without a leader to reign them in. Much like Orlais. 

 

 

"Right now" it's literally open season on both them and the mages. Legally, they don't have any rights, let alone the right to secede. Of course, that they had a right to secede before is something that will be corrected after this learning experience.

That's actually not true in the slightest. They were legally allowed to null the Nevaran Accord because Justinia broke it. Kind of the point really. 

 

It means quite a lot, given the existence of ecclesiastical jurisdiction present in both Thedas and the time period(s) in our own world that it draws inspiration from. The rights imparted to them by the original Accord were a mistake (which is my point). Since the Inquisition is either going to be cleaning up their mess and bringing them back into the fold, or breaking their backs, either way they should not get a say in whether or not they get to retain these rights.

 

Right, because the Chantry can legally enforce anything. They can't, and if they are too weak to follow their own laws, no one should be obligated to serve them. Not that this would mean anything, the Templars would just quit the Chantry and brand under a new name. The Chantry isn't a nation that one is required to adhere to. 

[Hellion Rex]

Listen to Queen Viv lay down the truth!!!!

 

[KingTony]

he ment no offense it was a attempt in humour

I tend to overcompensate for my strange sense of humour, it's true.

[raging_monkey]

I tend to overcompensate for my strange sense of humour, it's true.

do want i do my friend ease in to it like a intimate moment.... then KAAAPOOOOW!!! witty oneliners XD

[Mimilette]

 

It's weird. The kids taken away from peasants are happy, but the ones staying behind that lead to mass death and destruction proves it doesn't work. Wow. 

 

No, the Tranquil do not pay for the entire Circle. The Chantry does. As does it pay for the upkeep of the Tower. From contributions of viewers like you. 

It's like you completely ignored where I showed that healing magic is definitely used. Other schools of magic also lack just about any practical use, as most magic apparently can't even be used for mundane tasks besides keeping the Everlasting Flame lit. I'm glad that a few elves can disprove the vast majority of Thedas wrong, where blood magic is either dominating society, the Dalish and Tevinter, killing innocents, or in most cases, leading to direct possession. 

 

You're more of, "I'll ignore the dangerous parts of magic because they're people," kind of person. Everyone has rules and restrictions based on their government and the danger they possess. Sorry mages can't different. 

 

 

Hmm, I can understand thinking that the Circles are a the lesser of two evils, but it seems you actually think it's a perfect system. If that is the case, we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

All kids are happy? Like that poor girl who was so filled with self-hatred in the mage origin that she was considering death? Like all the mages that try to flee the circles? Like Fiona, who sure had a terrible childhood and still didn't find haven in there like she first thought she would?

All the kids who don't go to the Circles end up abominations? Like Bethany? Hawke? Apostate's kids properly trained?

You seem to think in a "all or nothing" way, when I never said that kids did not need training. I said they do not need to be tore apart from their family.

 

There is actually a middle ground that should be tried before going to the extreme.

 

I'm willing to discuss but if you're going to throw wild accusations at me (Contributions of viewers like me? What does that even mean?), I believe we should stop. No one is actually harmed in reality, so I'm not going to despise you for your opinion, but please do me the same courtesy.

 

Other schools of magic could have practical uses, Isseya did great things with force magic in the Last Flight. Everlasting flame is actually a good practical use that could be used in cities. It would make for more secure street to begin with. Baby steps, but steps all the same.

I mean, why give up before even trying?

 

I did not ignore what you said about healing magic, I completely acknowledged it when I said "And by citizens I mean all of them, not the already privileged like nobles." Unless I am mistaken, which is possible since I'm no lore expert, I do not believe the common people have access to that kind of service.

 

As I said before, I don't think magic breeds slavery more than any other kind of power, so the "Tevinter proves" argument is not one for me, but again you can disagree. Orlais has slavery in fact if not in name, what does that prove? And considering the Mage Collective in Ferelden has been around for a while and the country has not imploded yet, I am tempted to think that, like I thought, culture does way more to shape people's moral compass than magic.

 

I do not ignore the danger of magic, I just don't think a society should be held back because of fear. I don't understand why you seem keen on reducing the debate to "Chantry approved Circle or nothing" when there are so many other options that could be tried. I sure have never said mages should be left without education and reasonable supervision.

[KingTony]

do want i do my friend ease in to it like a intimate moment.... then KAAAPOOOOW!!! witty oneliners XD

I have much to learn, sensei.

[raging_monkey]

I have much to learn, sensei.

well first lesson drop the honourific titles make skin crawl

Kudos if you get the reference. Hint: starwars, jedi master, and had a beard XD

[The Baconer]

What you said was that no military organization can exist outside of direct control for long. The fact that you're wrong doesn't mean I'm moving the goal post. Accept that paramilitary can exist, even when they are condemned by the government and do not have to answer to anyone.

 

Except that... literally every organization you named does in fact have to answer to someone.

 

 

Yeah, because Templars were what incited the problems in Orlais.

 

Yeah, that's not even what I said. The point is that Nobles getting tired of everything all the time is literally why there's a coup in the first place. As little as I care for their opinions or their continued existence, their influence is unfortunately inescapable.

 

 

No it shouldn't. Doesn't change the fact that the Templars as we knew them, a knightly order, are not the same as the Templars here, a bunch of refugees infighting and have near starved for lyrium. All this, without a leader to reign them in. Much like Orlais.

 

"Oh, they were desperate, pushed to do bad things! Don't let the bad ones define how you treat the rest of them!"

 

***k that. That's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

 

That's actually not true in the slightest. They were legally allowed to null the Nevaran Accord because Justinia broke it. Kind of the point really. 

 

What they didn't have, and still don't have, is the ability to legally conduct war on their own terms within the sovereign kingdoms in Thedas.

 

 

Right, because the Chantry can legally enforce anything.

 

Uh, literally they can in the countries that acknowledge their authority, which just happens to be about 80% of Thedas.

 

 

Not that this would mean anything, the Templars would just quit the Chantry and brand under a new name. The Chantry isn't a nation that one is required to adhere to. 

 

Oh yeah, that's definitely something that could reasonably happen.