An honest question - How does anyone wildly pro-mage and anti-Circle reconcile Tevinter with their view?
While the Qunari sometimes put up a good fight for the title, and Orlais seems pretty sleazy, I can think of no worse place in Thedas than Tevinter. While many of my playthroughs are pro-Mage (though I've debated against pro-Mage folks here mostly, as they seem most extreme, I actually consider myself a pro-Circle moderate who both likes and loathes both factions; and I used to be pro-apostates, way back in Awakening and DAO when I sympathized with Morrigan, "But freedom" before actually reading all the lore and history and considering), I can never feel this "Freedom!" cry for the Mages because I know Mages are far less oppressed than slaves and this notion of blessed freedom for mages some cling to leads to Tevinter, at best.
technically Orlais have slaves too.
It's not unheard off for some of the nobles of Orlais to own elves as slaves, even though it's illegal.
Huh? I read The Masked Empire and saw mistreated servants and subjugated elves, but no slaves. Where did you get this?
Harrowing is relatively easy to fix, and I've offered the same suggestion several times on that measure. As for Tranquility... firstly, it'd only work to ensure that apprentices who have their mind set on evil wouldn't harm anyone, as it's illegal to make Harrowed mages Tranquil already. And I'd say that rather few apprentices would really have committed crimes so terrible that anything like that could really be warranted even with in-universe standards. So I think we'd lose rather little by simply abolishing involuntary Tranquility. I would also add a trial period to voluntary Tranquility, curing the Tranquil after the initial Rite so that they can have a taste of both states and seeing whether they truly want to continue being Tranquil.
In the case of tranqulity - It's tranquility or death. As to your trial period, you honestly think it's less cruel to let someone who has decided Tranquility over Death be made whole again and then asked again, in the over-emotional state we saw Pharamond in. Then presumably either made Tranquil again or killed. That fate sounds much more cruel to me than otherwise.
Why must it be tranquility or death? Because some mages - hopefully few, and I'm all for the best training available - will never be able to pass a Harrowing and prove they can resist demons and because some mages commit atrocious crimes. I do think mages should be given informed choices. But once they've made their choice, why not let them be?
Now, if someone was made Tranquil without the proper approvals, or if something substantial changes that you believe might allow them to better control their power (the Mages invent a massive willpower concoction that helps prevent demonic possession or something), the Rite obviously should be undone. But otherwise it's simply cruelty.
I can't help but feel that Wynne is a bad example of a model mage being rewarded. It didn't seem that it did her any good when Lambert decided that he had enough. If even someone like her could not convince Templars of her good will, who could?
Lambert's actions were pushed by mage extremists, one of whom (who may not have acted alone) framed Wynne's son, one of the primary figures at the conclave, of murder quite successfully in order to draw his ire to the conclave and force a confrontation. Then, when the mages were ordered to disperse, they did not. Granted, many did not disperse because Lambert already blustered "treason" at their voting on independence (stupid of him since independence wouldn't have won at that point; the guy lacks finesse) but that was designed and the reason why the Libertarians pushed the vote despite MUCH protestation from the majority of the mages at the conclave. Most people were like, "Dude, no, this is not what we're here to discuss, and you're going to get us in so much trouble," and the Libertarians were like, "But freedom! Mage rights!" and meanwhile disregarding the wishes of their fellows. Yes, things went crazy, but I do not think it was Lambert decided that he "had enough." Wynne also conspired against Lambert before that point - sending the messages he didn't want out there, through trickster-esque means - and had proven more adversary than ally to him personally, so I wouldn't use Wynne/Lambert as an example for Mages being allowed freedoms. Clearly, Wynne was allowed freedoms because of her service.
Then we train them to be better at resisting demonic possession.
What makes you think they aren't already being trained the best they can? What possible motive does anyone have NOT to give mages the best training available for this? I'm sure training can improve over time, with knowledge, but we see mages were already researching all kinds of things. Training probably has improved. But it will never be enough to make all mages strong enough.
And Andraste did not send the Imperium a strongly worded letter to initiate her revolution, she started a war. Anders did what he had to do to get the ball moving, I don't fault him for it. I actually agree with a lot of what he said, there was no "compromise" when the mages where so easily cowed or bribed to look the other way at the abuses and mundanes don't want to change because they fear change. It was bound to happen anyways if it wasn't anders, it would have been a resolutionist or some other bad mage. Mages have been rebelling in every game and discontent for the status quo is evident.
Pretty sure Andraste didn't start with a terrorist attack. And, if she did, I don't condone that either.
Extremists don't have the right to start revolutions. The way various extremist mages pushed the others and led to this revolution is shameful. (Stupid templar actions playing right into their hands didn't help.) They couldn't get what they wanted, even from other mages, through peaceful means. It is inherently selfish. Not an honorable revolution but a selfish, deranged act.
I can end this argument with one word. Dalish. They practice magic, and though accidents do occur, they seem to manage just fine. All one needs to do is ensure that responsible use of magic is taught to all who wield it. Couple that with careful research carried out under controlled conditions with every safety measure that can possibly be implemented used. You don't have to cage them in order to properly manage the risk. Accidents will always occur no matter what. All you can realistically do is minimize that risk not eliminate it altogether. There's also no good reason to segregate them from the rest of society. We've seen time and again that you can't realistically control all mages. Plenty have managed to live outside the Circle just fine without incident. I don't really think blood magic is all that evil either so long as you don't go sacrificing people. I will always support the mages, and that is that.
As ComedicSociopathy points out, it hasn't gone as well for the Dalish as you claim. But, even if it had, we have NO idea what the Dalish mage training actually entails. You can't be a Dalish mage in Origins (without mods). Merrill is kicked out because she turns to blood magic, thus unleashing a potentially dangerous blood mage who makes deals with demons on the world (the fact that she doesn't become an abomination or that she is a nice person does not discount her illegal and dangerous choices or the risk she is to Kirkwall), and she tells us almost nothing of what the Dalish actually do with mages besides make them Firsts/Keepers.
I have seen fewer mages living outside the Circle without incident than I have seen outside the Circle with incident. I actually cannot think of a non-Circle mage that does NOT prove a potential danger to others. Morrigan and her mother kill people in the Wilds; this is made very clear through her dialogue. Anders (trained at the Circle, too, btw, but choosing to be an apostate) is obvious. Even Merril was going to go back and become an abomination - her keeper merely stopped her. All the truly good mages I've met in game or read about in book are pro-Circle (not necessarily pro-Kirkwall Circle). Even Rhys, who is initially a Libertarian, is moderate and changes his views when faced with what the Libertarian/Separatist/Resolutionist mages are really like. Yes, he votes for independence, but at that point, his other choice is death.
Ah but now now templars have to deal with Red lyrium and its "singing" they now can also be tempted and turn into monsters. With DAI I think bioware are trying to balance the factions so to speak. Both side's have their "demons" now and it is showing that either side cannot function without some kind of oversight.
Technically, it seems like Red Lyrium can corrupt anyone since it can even corrupt a dwarf (who is lyrium resistant). I'm definitely anti-Red Templars or anyone foolish enough to utilize Red Lyrium or cursed enough to come upon it without knowledge of its major, major downsides. Red Lyrium use should be absolutely illegal. I don't think the Templars are the only ones potentially at risk of becoming monsters under the influence of it (we have no idea its impact on mages, but we know you don't have to be a Templar to go nuts and have your friends skinned alive and stuff) or it is inherent to them the way the risk of demonic possession is inherent and inseparable from the mage.
Templars as a military organization need to be leashed like any other armed force in service to a higher authority, lest they turn to banditry and looting. This is exactly what happened in this instance.
Giving them the right to legally secede from the Chantry is counterintuitive.
Templars weren't created by the Chantry. They were created by the first (or at least a previous) Inquisition. They agreed to work with the Chantry in the Neverran Accord because the Chantry agreed to create Circles for mages. While they may have been used as an army for the Chantry, that was not the Order's primary role. While I don't necessarily think secession is simple after being so long entertwined, it seems reasonable it is legal.
All kids are happy? Like that poor girl who was so filled with self-hatred in the mage origin that she was considering death? Like all the mages that try to flee the circles? Like Fiona, who sure had a terrible childhood and still didn't find haven in there like she first thought she would?
All the kids who don't go to the Circles end up abominations? Like Bethany? Hawke? Apostate's kids properly trained?
You seem to think in a "all or nothing" way, when I never said that kids did not need training. I said they do not need to be tore apart from their family.
Fiona's childhood was worse before she manifested her powers as a mage. If you want to talk Elf rights, I'm all for them (unless they're unreasonable about it - I'm not on the Dalish's occasional "kill all shem" side, but I'm for reparations). But Fiona had a much better life and childhood once it was clear she was a mage. This is irrefutable.
Bethany is a rare example, and there is no way to "track" whether parents can or can't handle training their mage children. If we started allowing exceptions, it would likely lead to the noble class of mages staying with their families and the poor mages being sent to Circles and worse conditions in the Circles overall, as well as worse conditions throughout Thedas. And even more Connors/Redcliffe disasters would happen. The commonfolk would die at the hands of abominations of that were once noble mage children, poorly trained.
I care too much for the common folk to expose them to that risk, and I see no alternative that protects the common folk of Thedas. I also know that as soon as those abominations started ravaging towns again, new Mage Hunters would rise and strike down mages and anyone suspected of being a mage, maybe even the families of mages. They would do so because their families were harmed and threatened by mages.
The Circle system is the best way to avoid that. I do think families should be able to write and visit (I believe in lore, they are, with the exception of extreme cases like Kirkwall) and I also believe that poorer families should be aided in this, maybe even given some chance to re-locate nearer a Circle.
Retour en haut
if everyone treated their mages like the Qunari did we wouldnt have this mess today.
