1428 réponses à ce sujet

[lordsaren101]

I reconcile with Tevinter because the rest of Thedas is full of unwashed barbarian scum. Only the imperium can bring order and structure to the chaos.

[berrieh]

I reconcile with Tevinter because the rest of Thedas is full of unwashed barbarian scum. Only the imperium can bring order and structure to the chaos.

 

I'm speaking of reconciling it with a view that a fight for the Mages is a fight against oppression. I don't think the mages are exactly oppressed, but oppression definitely exists, most supremely in Tevinter. 

 

I get your point of view, though I don't agree with it. I don't get the view of those who say this is about oppression and then handwave Tevinter. 

[raging_monkey]

I reconcile with tevinter because that their culture and they evolved that way. The southern magi wont go that way cause they "evolved" in a different culture so while their will be x renegades but they wont create a 2nd tevinter

The idea that tevinter is a pancea for magi is a dubious assumption

[Tevinter Soldier]

that is a load if you caged anyone but a mage this way you would not question the oppression.

 

it is your fear that justifies it, there is no "exactly" they are a minority with less freedom that is oppression. weasel words may twist the argument to help you deal with it. but it is oppression none the less.

[Vixzer]

They stated that it is completely different this time and 40 are not number of slight variations but completely different endings. Let's see that. It's early to confirm or deny it, let's just hope that they predicted the output of this thread when they did the game which is done already.

 

 

Oo... so I will have 40 playthrougs? Awesome, I will just get a vacation for the rest of this year and the next (*insert evil laugh) oh wait.... I need money to pay the bills

 

 

Unfortunately, you remembered wrong.

 

Oh, ok... that works too

[berrieh]

I reconcile with tevinter because that their culture and they evolved that way. The southern magi wont go that way cause they "evolved" in a different culture so while their will be x renegades but they wont create a 2nd tevinter

The idea that tevinter is a pancea for magi is a dubious assumption

 

What do you think the Southern magi would do? What peaceful solution exists with mages being able to own lands and titles (powerful mages being some of the few who could actually "buy" them or take them in some cases where there is no family heritage), raise armies, etc, etc, all the freedoms people want them to have? I'm not speaking of Circle reforms, but straight up, "Go, be free" folks. What good end awaits? 

 

that is a load if you caged anyone but a mage this way you would not question the oppression.

 

it is your fear that justifies it, there is no "exactly" they are a minority with less freedom that is oppression. weasel words may twist the argument to help you deal with it. but it is oppression none the less.

 

It's not simply my fear - it's the actual evidence:

1. Innocent mages are susceptible to becoming abominations that can take out whole villages and cities if there is no Templar nearby. 

2. Many mages make deals with demons or turn to blood magic to get what they want. Some are evil; some are merely naive. 

3. Blood magic often cannot be detected, and it can control minds. There is no greater oppression than that. 

4. The only times where mages were allowed to rule, they have encouraged slavery, corruption, blood magic, etc. Even if blood magic is illegal in Tevinter, it is obviously wildly practiced. 

5. Too much magic use weakens the veil. 

6. One evil mage, if very powerful, can wreak more havoc than a King with an army. 

 

No one has presented how "Let the mages roam free, have lands, have titles, etc" would actually work outside of Tevinter. And it doesn't work well there. 

 

I care first and foremost for the commonfolk and the low folk (like city elves). I look for what's best for them. I'm sure the nobles could defend and protect themselves, but how many villages would be destroyed by demonic forces if not for the Circles? (I'm not against reforming the Circles to be a more free and liberal space, personally. But honestly, the way they were in DA:O was more free and liberal than Kirkwall or afterwards anyway.) 

[LD Little Dragon]

An honest question - How does anyone wildly pro-mage and anti-Circle reconcile Tevinter with their view? 

 

Slavery in Tevinter is a result of their culture, it is not specific to mages.

 

Mages were not in power in Tevinter for at least decades, probably centuries, after Andraste - the non-mages had years to alter their society - they did not and eventually the mages worked their way back into ruling the existing system.

 

Sure, Tevinter doesn't show mages in a good light.  It also doesn't show non-mages in a good light.

 

Freedom for mages does not mean giving the mages the right to do anything they want. It means allowing them to live their lives according to the same laws as the other citizens.  A mage who robs or murders civilians is a criminal.  A mage who just wants to be a farmer is not.

[Tevinter Soldier]

What do you think the Southern magi would do? What peaceful solution exists with mages being able to own lands and titles (powerful mages being some of the few who could actually "buy" them or take them in some cases where there is no family heritage), raise armies, etc, etc, all the freedoms people want them to have? I'm not speaking of Circle reforms, but straight up, "Go, be free" folks. What good end awaits? 

 

 

It's not simply my fear - it's the actual evidence:

1. Innocent mages are susceptible to becoming abominations that can take out whole villages and cities if there is no Templar nearby. 

2. Many mages make deals with demons or turn to blood magic to get what they want. Some are evil; some are merely naive. 

3. Blood magic often cannot be detected, and it can control minds. There is no greater oppression than that. 

4. The only times where mages were allowed to rule, they have encouraged slavery, corruption, blood magic, etc. Even if blood magic is illegal in Tevinter, it is obviously wildly practiced. 

5. Too much magic use weakens the veil. 

6. One evil mage, if very powerful, can wreak more havoc than a King with an army. 

 

No one has presented how "Let the mages roam free, have lands, have titles, etc" would actually work outside of Tevinter. And it doesn't work well there. 

 

I care first and foremost for the commonfolk and the low folk (like city elves). I look for what's best for them. I'm sure the nobles could defend and protect themselves, but how many villages would be destroyed by demonic forces if not for the Circles? (I'm not against reforming the Circles to be a more free and liberal space, personally. But honestly, the way they were in DA:O was more free and liberal than Kirkwall or afterwards anyway.) 

 

fear.

[raging_monkey]

What do you think the Southern magi would do? What peaceful solution exists with mages being able to own lands and titles (powerful mages being some of the few who could actually "buy" them or take them in some cases where there is no family heritage), raise armies, etc, etc, all the freedoms people want them to have? I'm not speaking of Circle reforms, but straight up, "Go, be free" folks. What good end awaits? 
 

 
It's not simply my fear - it's the actual evidence:
1. Innocent mages are susceptible to becoming abominations that can take out whole villages and cities if there is no Templar nearby. 
2. Many mages make deals with demons or turn to blood magic to get what they want. Some are evil; some are merely naive. 
3. Blood magic often cannot be detected, and it can control minds. There is no greater oppression than that. 
4. The only times where mages were allowed to rule, they have encouraged slavery, corruption, blood magic, etc. Even if blood magic is illegal in Tevinter, it is obviously wildly practiced. 
5. Too much magic use weakens the veil. 
6. One evil mage, if very powerful, can wreak more havoc than a King with an army. 
 
No one has presented how "Let the mages roam free, have lands, have titles, etc" would actually work outside of Tevinter. And it doesn't work well there. 
 
I care first and foremost for the commonfolk and the low folk (like city elves). I look for what's best for them. I'm sure the nobles could defend and protect themselves, but how many villages would be destroyed by demonic forces if not for the Circles? (I'm not against reforming the Circles to be a more free and liberal space, personally. But honestly, the way they were in DA:O was more free and liberal than Kirkwall or afterwards anyway.)

ahh and there is the heart... fear and paranoia of times of old. I do not claim that magi will be paragons nor devils. The are not homeogenus. They are varied like any person.

[berrieh]

Slavery in Tevinter is a result of their culture, it is not specific to mages.

 

Mages were not in power in Tevinter for at least decades, probably centuries, after Andraste - the non-mages had years to alter their society - they did not and eventually the mages worked their way back into ruling the existing system.

 

Sure, Tevinter doesn't show mages in a good light.  It also doesn't show non-mages in a good light.

 

Freedom for mages does not mean giving the mages the right to do anything they want. It means allowing them to live their lives according to the same laws as the other citizens.  A mage who robs or murders civilians is a criminal.  A mage who just wants to be a farmer is not.

 

From everything I can find, this is untrue. The part of Thedas that is still Tevinter never fell. Non-mages have never been in power there and are, at best, second-class citizens and, at worst, slaves. That's why it's still called Tevinter and why Andraste was burnt at the stake there. Archon Hessarian, ruler of Tevinter when Andraste was killed, was a mage. He was a pro-Chantry mage for whatever reason (he actually saw the Maker, political opportunity, whatever). But the Imperium did not fall to her army. The mages were always in power. 

 

As to the mage who wants to be a farmer, what happens when that mage becomes an abomination or has a bad season and turns to blood magic as a means to get what he needs to feed his family? Yes, we can punish him then, but what good is that once his family and village is destroyed by demons and abominations? 

 

I'm not unsympathetic to the mage who wants to be a farmer. But it's not just about mages maybe being bad people.

 

Maybe here's the best real-world parallel, and even this is obviously faulty because of the damage done being very different. I'm not unsympathetic to the mentally ill, but even in our society, if someone is a danger to themselves or others (a state no mage can escape) by no fault of their own, we detain them. We hopefully give them decent care and conditions, but we cannot allow them to be a danger to themselves or others among the general public. 

 

That's not fear. It's safety. Safety and fear are not precisely the same thing. 

[TTTX]

Huh? I read The Masked Empire and saw mistreated servants and subjugated elves, but no slaves. Where did you get this? 

It comes from the on of the Codex entries of DA2 that mentions it.

 

Qunari also have slaves (they use a special powder that turns people into mindless labor they can use, Fenris mentioned in act 3 in a party banter with Isabela) as they waste nothing.

 

Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elveslured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? Andhumans fall prey to this, too.

 

If they're lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only "servants." Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal.

 

Of course, the greatest consumer of slave labor is the Tevinter Imperium, which would surely crumble if not for the endless supply of slaves from all over the continent. There, they are meat, chattel. They are beaten, used as fodder in the endless war against the Qunari, and even serve as components in dark magic rituals.

 

—From Black City, Black Divine: A Study of the Tevinter Imperium, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

[Keroko]

The Circle system is the best way to avoid that. I do think families should be able to write and visit (I believe in lore, they are, with the exception of extreme cases like Kirkwall) and I also believe that poorer families should be aided in this, maybe even given some chance to re-locate nearer a Circle.

 
Actually, Leandra does visit Bethany after she's taken to the Circle. If even Kirkwall allows regular family visits, I can't imagine the other Circles would not.

[raging_monkey]

From everything I can find, this is untrue. The part of Thedas that is still Tevinter never fell. Non-mages have never been in power there and are, at best, second-class citizens and, at worst, slaves. That's why it's still called Tevinter and why Andraste was burnt at the stake there. Archon Hessarian, ruler of Tevinter when Andraste was killed, was a mage. He was a pro-Chantry mage for whatever reason (he actually saw the Maker, political opportunity, whatever). But the Imperium did not fall to her army. The mages were always in power. 
 
As to the mage who wants to be a farmer, what happens when that mage becomes an abomination or has a bad season and turns to blood magic as a means to get what he needs to feed his family? Yes, we can punish him then, but what good is that once his family and village is destroyed by demons and abominations? 
 
I'm not unsympathetic to the mage who wants to be a farmer. But it's not just about mages maybe being bad people.
 
Maybe here's the best real-world parallel, and even this is obviously faulty because of the damage done being very different. I'm not unsympathetic to the mentally ill, but even in our society, if someone is a danger to themselves or others (a state no mage can escape) by no fault of their own, we detain them. We hopefully give them decent care and conditions, but we cannot allow them to be a danger to themselves or others among the general public. 
 
That's not fear. It's safety. Safety and fear are not precisely the same thing.

check WoT non magi have autothority in the senate. And safety influenced by fear isnt saftey its paranioa

[Xilizhra]

From everything I can find, this is untrue. The part of Thedas that is still Tevinter never fell. Non-mages have never been in power there and are, at best, second-class citizens and, at worst, slaves. That's why it's still called Tevinter and why Andraste was burnt at the stake there. Archon Hessarian, ruler of Tevinter when Andraste was killed, was a mage. He was a pro-Chantry mage for whatever reason (he actually saw the Maker, political opportunity, whatever). But the Imperium did not fall to her army. The mages were always in power. 

 

As to the mage who wants to be a farmer, what happens when that mage becomes an abomination or has a bad season and turns to blood magic as a means to get what he needs to feed his family? Yes, we can punish him then, but what good is that once his family and village is destroyed by demons and abominations? 

 

I'm not unsympathetic to the mage who wants to be a farmer. But it's not just about mages maybe being bad people.

 

Maybe here's the best real-world parallel, and even this is obviously faulty because of the damage done being very different. I'm not unsympathetic to the mentally ill, but even in our society, if someone is a danger to themselves or others (a state no mage can escape) by no fault of their own, we detain them. We hopefully give them decent care and conditions, but we cannot allow them to be a danger to themselves or others among the general public. 

 

That's not fear. It's safety. Safety and fear are not precisely the same thing. 

Actually, nonmages were in power in Tevinter for quite a long time. There wasn't a mage archon until the Storm Age.

[berrieh]

Interesting about Orlais. Still does not appear to be legal there. There is slavery in the United States today; it is not legal. So not really the same thing.As to how common it is - Since it does not say so in the World of Thedas, and since Codex entries are in character and this one was written by the Black Divine (in Tevinter), I am unsure what to believe. I do not believe it is absolute proof. If there is slavery in Orlais, it is clearly under the table. Celene does not seem to know of it. We have omniscient views of people in Orlais who should be aware, from the Masked Empire, and it is not confirmed. 

 

Qunari also have slaves (they use a special powder that turns people into mindless labor they can use, Fenris mentioned in act 3 in a party banter with Isabela) as they waste nothing.

 

 

I know about the powder (it's in the comics too), but that's not precisely slaves. It's certainly abhorrent, as many Qunari practices are, but it's much harder to examine Qunari practices (for me) because they aren't really aiming for wealth or power. The goal of the powder is to avoid execution. It's much more akin to Tranquility (but without the same practical reasoning). And, as I understand it, you have many chances to convert willingly. The Qunari never apply the powder for the purpose of making someone a slave; they do so if they feel you cannot be 'saved' and see the reason of the Qun. It's maybe not any better, but it's a different model. Qunari don't care about individual power. You cannot judge Qunari society by the standards of individual rights at all; they have none. The notion that the individual is important is a very Western idea. I cannot quite disparage the Qunari as strongly as the Orlesians or the Tevinters for this reason because their great flaw is that their belief system is diametrically opposed to the free, pro-individual Western views many players - including myself - share, and I'm aware those biases are culturally ingrained and hard to escape. 

[berrieh]

Actually, nonmages were in power in Tevinter for quite a long time. There wasn't a mage archon until the Storm Age.

 

Hassarian was a Mage. 

 

Archons are mage-rulers. 

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Archon

 

I have looked and looked to see if I'm wrong on this claim. Now, no member of the Magister can become Archon, but it's still a Mage. I think they did not come directly from the ranks of the Enchanters during a period, bu can find no evidence the people in that period were not mages. 

[Xilizhra]

I know about the powder (it's in the comics too), but that's not precisely slaves. It's certainly abhorrent, as many Qunari practices are, but it's much harder to examine Qunari practices (for me) because they aren't really aiming for wealth or power. The goal of the powder is to avoid execution. It's much more akin to Tranquility (but without the same practical reasoning). And, as I understand it, you have many chances to convert willingly. The Qunari never apply the powder for the purpose of making someone a slave; they do so if they feel you cannot be 'saved' and see the reason of the Qun. It's maybe not any better, but it's a different model. Qunari don't care about individual power. You cannot judge Qunari society by the standards of individual rights at all; they have none. The notion that the individual is important is a very Western idea. I cannot quite disparage the Qunari as strongly as the Orlesians or the Tevinters for this reason because their great flaw is that their belief system is diametrically opposed to the free, pro-individual Western views many players - including myself - share, and I'm aware those biases are culturally ingrained and hard to escape. 

No, they're still slaves.Just slaves to the overall society and not any individual (which, funnily enough, all qunari are in a way).

 

 

Hassarian was a Mage.

Yes, then mages were banned from politics when the Chantry took over.

[raging_monkey]

Interesting about Orlais. Still does not appear to be legal there. There is slavery in the United States today; it is not legal. So not really the same thing.As to how common it is - Since it does not say so in the World of Thedas, and since Codex entries are in character and this one was written by the Black Divine (in Tevinter), I am unsure what to believe. I do not believe it is absolute proof. If there is slavery in Orlais, it is clearly under the table. Celene does not seem to know of it. We have omniscient views of people in Orlais who should be aware, from the Masked Empire, and it is not confirmed. 
 

 
I know about the powder (it's in the comics too), but that's not precisely slaves. It's certainly abhorrent, as many Qunari practices are, but it's much harder to examine Qunari practices (for me) because they aren't really aiming for wealth or power. The goal of the powder is to avoid execution. It's much more akin to Tranquility (but without the same practical reasoning). And, as I understand it, you have many chances to convert willingly. The Qunari never apply the powder for the purpose of making someone a slave; they do so if they feel you cannot be 'saved' and see the reason of the Qun. It's maybe not any better, but it's a different model. Qunari don't care about individual power. You cannot judge Qunari society by the standards of individual rights at all; they have none. The notion that the individual is important is a very Western idea. I cannot quite disparage the Qunari as strongly as the Orlesians or the Tevinters for this reason because their great flaw is that their belief system is diametrically opposed to the free, pro-individual Western views many players - including myself - share, and I'm aware those biases are culturally ingrained and hard to escape.

its was written a sister petrine... a white chantry member. If they were using names it would have refered to the imperial chantry

[TTTX]

Interesting about Orlais. Still does not appear to be legal there. There is slavery in the United States today; it is not legal. So not really the same thing.As to how common it is - Since it does not say so in the World of Thedas, and since Codex entries are in character and this one was written by the Black Divine (in Tevinter), I am unsure what to believe. I do not believe it is absolute proof. If there is slavery in Orlais, it is clearly under the table. Celene does not seem to know of it. We have omniscient views of people in Orlais who should be aware, from the Masked Empire, and it is not confirmed. 

It was a chantry scholar sister Petrine who wrote it, not the Black Divine. Just saying.

 

and on the wiki page it also says this.

 

Although slavery is illegal in Orlais, it is still not unheard of for wealthy nobles to own elven slaves. In recent years, though, the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld. Empress Celene may have been instrumental in this change of policy.

 

I know about the powder (it's in the comics too), but that's not precisely slaves. It's certainly abhorrent, as many Qunari practices are, but it's much harder to examine Qunari practices (for me) because they aren't really aiming for wealth or power. The goal of the powder is to avoid execution. It's much more akin to Tranquility (but without the same practical reasoning). And, as I understand it, you have many chances to convert willingly. The Qunari never apply the powder for the purpose of making someone a slave; they do so if they feel you cannot be 'saved' and see the reason of the Qun. It's maybe not any better, but it's a different model. Qunari don't care about individual power. You cannot judge Qunari society by the standards of individual rights at all; they have none. The notion that the individual is important is a very Western idea. I cannot quite disparage the Qunari as strongly as the Orlesians or the Tevinters for this reason because their great flaw is that their belief system is diametrically opposed to the free, pro-individual Western views many players - including myself - share, and I'm aware those biases are culturally ingrained and hard to escape. 

Slavery is still slavery, rights or no, at that point they are no better then Tevinter.

[berrieh]

Ah sorry about the Black Divine mix-up, if we know who that sister is - from the format, I thought she was a member of the Black Chantry. That still presents some strange continuity issues with Masked Empire. The wiki page is not like the World of Thedas - it just combines everything from the Codex, so it says many of the things Genetivi says as well that might be slightly off. 

 

No, they're still slaves.Just slaves to the overall society and not any individual (which, funnily enough, all qunari are in a way).

 

Yes, then mages were banned from politics when the Chantry took over.

 

Please show me a source for the latter, for this idea mages were banned from politics in Tevinter and that truly applied. I have looked and cannot find it. 

 

I agree, by Western standards, all Qunari may appear to be slaves to society; however, slavery as we know it can only exist in a world of Western standards where there is some form of capitalism. The Qunari don't engage in that within their society. It is an entirely different mindset. They don't view any of the people as property, lesser than any others (even the ones who've been powerered) and thus don't adhere to the actual definition of slavery. I can see how a Western would see them as slaves, but I feel it's inaccurate and based upon cultural bias. This is not to say I think the Qunari are awesome. I am actually more afraid of them than Tevinter. But that's likely also my Western cultural bias. 

 

I don't want to get too far into Qunari culture, but while they are even more restricted than Circle mages, as has been said in-thread, "not free" is not precisely the same as "slave." 

 

1. Slavery is a legal or economic system under which people are treated as property. Though laws and systems vary, as property, enslaved persons, referred to as "slaves", may be bought and sold.

[Blackstork]

Unfortunately, you remembered wrong.

I remembered right from video source. Seems they re-stated and clarified the exact state of thing to prevent future fuss.
Still , if under variations of mage oriented ending we will have isolationist, aequtarian, loyalist, libertarian variations it is fine for me.

[MisterJB]

Yes, then mages were banned from politics when the Chantry took over.

No, they weren't. World of Thedas page 124 states that, for centuries after Hessarian's reformation, the highest clerics were non-mages and that non-mages actually held seats in the Senate.

However, if they only held seats rather than the whole senate, then logically, then other seats were occupied by mages. The lack of mention of the Archon can also lead to no other conclusion but that it remained a position reserved for mages.

All of this was taken away little by little reaching the current predicament where non-mages are forbidden from directly participating in the ruling of Tevinter.

So much for equality.

 

[The Elder King]

I remembered right from video source. Seems they re-stated and clarified the exact state of thing to prevent future fuss.
Still , if under variations of mage oriented ending we will have isolationist, aequtarian, loyalist, libertarian variations it is fine for me.

Nope. The 40 endings issue started in March/April after a gaming review mentioned it. Darrah addressed it a few days later. I'll found His post in the forum.

[The Elder King]

Hey guys,
I just want to clarify the endings in Dragon Age: Inquisition
Dragon Age Inquisition's endings variations come in three levels
1. Minor variations based upon choices you make in the game or previous games. There are HUNDREDS of these variations. 
2. Major variations based upon larger decisions in the game. There are about forty of these
3. Completely unique endings. There are a small number of these

[Blackstork]

Np, as long as we can have 5-7 different promage endings for different fraternities its cool enough.
Ah and thanks for this post. It makes stuff clear.