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[Master Warder Z_]

It still exists, so it has a Veil. Everywhere does. 

 

Only a handful of places exist without a veil and all of those places have been the sites of ridiculously large battles.

[Xilizhra]

It says the Veil is unusually thin. It does not say the region is cursed. Finally, Oriana wasn't even at the Circle, she was at the docks. Finally, possession comes from the mage giving in to a demon's demands. The Veil's strength has literally no impact. 

I meant that the entirety of Kirkwall, not just the Gallows, is worse than every Circle. The malign effects of the region affect nonmages too. And if it only comes from a mage giving into a demon's demands, we should see that in a completely controlled environment, abominations still happen... something that we have never, ever seen.

 

Also, the Dalish don't practice Tranquility and haven't been wiped out by demons yet.

[The Baconer]

The veil is "usually thin" throughout the whole city. The state of the veil can contribute to the frequency and possibly the intensity of hearing demons from the Fade.

[Br3admax]

I meant that the entirety of Kirkwall, not just the Gallows, is worse than every Circle. 

It is not. That's again, just your opinion. 

 

The malign effects of the region affect nonmages too. And if it only comes from a mage giving into a demon's demands, we should see that in a completely controlled environment, abominations still happen... something that we have never, ever seen.

Because, and this might be news to you, mages give in to demons all the time. They're enticing entities with magical powers, in case you didn't notice. 

 

 

Also, the Dalish don't practice Tranquility and haven't been wiped out by demons yet.

lol. One clan at a time. So far a demon has destroyed almost every clan we've met. Without the Warden, the LotF would have destroyed the Dalish. Marethari was possesed. And I shouldn't even have to bring up TME. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The veil is "usually thin" throughout the whole city. The state of the veil can contribute to the frequency and possibly the intensity of hearing demons from the Fade.

 

Quite; to be honest the only area i can recall off the top of my head where the veil is "breached" is that site up in the Anderfels were that blight got smushed and all those people died, and even today the veil is still ridiculously torn, corpses don't decompose and other weird ****.

[The Baconer]

Quite; to be honest the only area i can recall off the top of my head where the veil is "breached" is that site up in the Anderfels were that blight got smushed and all those people died, and even today the veil is still ridiculously torn, corpses don't decompose and other weird ****.

 

IIRC, Marnas Pell in Tevinter is another place where this has occurred due to a battle with the Qunari. Then there's the Black Marshes, but that isn't a problem anymore thanks to the Warden.

[Mimilette]

interesting analysis

 

You make some very legitimate points, and I think in the end it just comes down to where one's priorities lie.

First though, to make things clear, I'm not pro/anti anything, simply because dividing such a complex issue into a pro-anti debate makes me feel like we're cheering for sport teams and hoping for a clear winner when clearly there would be no such thing.

 

I have already stated my mind about Tevinter. Magic does not breed slavery any more than any other type of power. It does not make a bad or good person. Some other posters already answered you about other part of Thedas using slavery, and the fact it's not legal in Orlais is just proof of how hypocrite their society is. Elves not being legally slaves do them no good if the law is ignored. Fiona was bought by her rapist and he "owned" her with impunity for 7 years until his death. I'm fairly sure nobles have no difficulties finding slaves. Elves can be killed, raped, robed, without much, or any repercussion depending probably on who committed the crime. For now they have it marginally better because of Celene. But what of the next ruler? And we're talking about a country which is the seat of the Southern Chantry and should strive to be an example.

 

Concerning the Harrowing and Tranquility, I am not against testing one's ability to resist temptation, but I do question the relevance of deciding beforehand if someone can or cannot do so. Even the wisest of man/woman can make mistake, and choosing to lobotomize or kill someone by deciding that the test will be a failure without even giving that person the chance to pass it is abhorrent.

People unfortunate enough to be mentally too weak should not be killed. If they're too dangerous to lead a normal life among other people, keep them safe away from them, yes, but at least treat them humanely. And keep searching for a way to allow them some day to live freely instead of being satisfied by a status quo that might be good for some people but clearly not for those who lost the birth lottery.

 

Concerning Lambert, we will have to disagree. Lambert is solely responsible for his own actions. When Greagoir had to face a Circle overrun by abominations, he still chose to give the remaining mages a chance. Surely Lambert could have shown mercy if he had wanted to. Wynne's stellar track record should absolutely have guaranteed that she be given at least the benefice of the doubt. And she did not "conspired", she went around him yes, and he having a tantrum because she was using political connections she made legitimately speaks even worse of him. They were political adversaries, maybe, but did she try to have him killed? Unlike him, no.

 

As for Andraste, her revolution is as much a terrorist action as any other violent mean to achieve an end, at least in the eye of the power in place. I do not condone what Anders did personally, because I think it was morally wrong on top of being stupid, but people who start wars are all responsible for countless deaths and Andraste is no exception. There is no such a thing as an "honorable" revolution. War is gruesome and leads to unspeakable acts. Whatever the "cause".

 

Concerning the mages that live outside the Circle, we actually have no idea how many of them there is (at least I don't think we do, if I'm wrong correct me). We always see the bad ones because it's always our job to go clean up other people mess, but there is one thing we know for sure: the Mage Collective exists in Ferelden, which seems to imply that there is at least a decent enough number of mages for them to form an association across the whole country, and the country does not seem to be overrun by crazy mages, abominations, and mayhem all around. And that is without templar supervision. Just imagine how much better they could do if they weren't forced into illegality.

 

We don't know how rare Bethany example is, because we obviously only hear about the cases that go wrong. I do not claim it is not rare, I just question the validity of stating that it is a rare case. However, I don't think I have ever heard of a story of an apostate kid blowing something up. It's always mundane people kids who do. I would be surprise if they weren't cases too though, to be honest.

 

I care as much as you do about the people, but mages are part of the people too. And I think the current system is not rational, and if it aims at protecting citizens, mundane and magic, it fails because the reasoning behind is based on fear and superstitions.

 

Untrained magic is dangerous and children should be trained immediately: why waiting for them to blow something up, shame them, then take them away from their families forever? Now anyone who loves its kids is going to hide them, any kid old enough to realize he/she's got magic will hide it, and Maker forbid that we actually try to detect magical talents before Something Bad Happens.

 

Demons feed on negative emotions: why cut mages ties to their families, scare them into thinking they're cursed, scare them with the Harrowing, have them live in conditions that feel oppressive to many? It seems utterly counterproductive. I'm fairly sure that a mage with no mental illness and living in a normal environment will not, in fact, turn into an abomination right in the middle of a street, the same way I would not go into a killing rampage just because I could.

 

Plenty of different schools of magic exist: why focus on that one bad and judge mages on that, and forget about all the other schools that the vast majority use, and act like absolutely no good can come from magic? Unless when we need it. All of a sudden, when doom strikes, even blood magic does not seem so bad. That's as hypocrite as it can get for me (I'm not talking about you, just so we're clear )

 

Magic need a decent counter-power: I'm still trying to figure out why it has to be a religious order. I mean I understand why the Chantry would want to keep the mages for itself, that power is just too sweet to give up, I just don't understand how it's good for the common people.

 

I understand that the current system might have been seen like the best at the time it was made. But clearly that time has passed, so how about Thedas starts trying to advance a bit and search for new solutions? I personally believe the risks are worth taking, though I completely understand that you might consider they're not.

Magic is here to stay and locking it up in a tower will not make it go away. People should be cautious with it and take sufficient precautions, but since it's here anyway, they might as well try to make the best of it, the same way humanity learnt to master fire to make its life better.

[Xilizhra]

It is not. That's again, just your opinion. 

Enigma of Kirkwall: "The mages of Kirkwall have a more troubled history than those in other Circles. A greater percentage of them do not survive the Harrowing, and a greater percentage turn to blood magic—almost double that of Starkhaven or Ostwick. Is there a secret fraternity delving into the Tevinter secrets of this city?"

And again: "It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city."

 

Speculations on Kirkwall, from Legacy: "The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?

If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?"

 

 

Because, and this might be news to you, mages give in to demons all the time. They're enticing entities with magical powers, in case you didn't notice. 

Then let us see it with no special circumstances.

 

 

lol. One clan at a time. So far a demon has destroyed almost every clan we've met. Without the Warden, the LotF would have destroyed the Dalish. Marethari was possesed. And I shouldn't even have to bring up TME. 

Hardly. Zathrian would have left, and either not returned to the forest or gathered some kind of army to crush the werewolves. And in neither case was a weak mage possessed from the Beyond due to falling for a demon's whims; it was deliberate summoning of spirits for personal and proactively chosen reasons.

[raging_monkey]

It still exists, so it has a Veil. Everywhere does.

but demons and abominations every ****ing where idk if it gameplay/segregation or just a day

[Br3admax]

Enigma of Kirkwall: "The mages of Kirkwall have a more troubled history than those in other Circles. A greater percentage of them do not survive the Harrowing, and a greater percentage turn to blood magic—almost double that of Starkhaven or Ostwick. Is there a secret fraternity delving into the Tevinter secrets of this city?"

And again: "It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city."

 

Speculations on Kirkwall, from Legacy: "The records say Corypheus has been trapped below the Vimmarks since the days of the Tevinter Imperium. Can it be a coincidence that the darkspawn besiege this area more fiercely than anywhere else on the surface of Thedas? Or that Kirkwall, the closest city, suffers from endless plagues of violence, lunacy, human sacrifice, and blood magic?

If one studies Kirkwall's public records, it becomes hard to deny that some malevolent force has long shaped its history. Could a darkspawn, even a powerful mage, have such influence even as it slumbers?"

Look at that. It doesn't say what you said it said. And you posted it anyway. You said it said the Veil was thinner over than entire City more than any Circle of Magi. 

 

Then let us see it with no special circumstances.

Or you can just admit that mages are weak and give into demons to be possessed in Kirkwall, just like everywhere else. The Veil's strength has nothing to do with it. 

 

Hardly. Zathrian would have left, and either not returned to the forest or gathered some kind of army to crush the werewolves. 

Hardly since almost all of his hunters were sick and he has no connections that demand he would be given an army. 

And in neither case was a weak mage possessed from the Beyond due to falling for a demon's whims; it was deliberate summoning of spirits for personal and proactively chosen reasons.

Which is ironically, not really, how all possessions work. 

[Xilizhra]

Look at that. It doesn't say what you said it said. And you posted it anyway. You said it said the Veil was thinner over than entire City more than any Circle of Magi. 

Very well. For the sake of clarity, I'll say that it's more heavily cursed than any Circle of Magi.

 

 

Or you can just admit that mages are weak and give into demons to be possessed in Kirkwall, just like everywhere else. The Veil's strength has nothing to do with it. 

And we return to opinion.

 

 

Hardly since almost all of his hunters were sick and he has no connections that demand he would be given an army.

Some. Hardly "almost all," we see far more active hunters than sick ones.

 

 

Which is ironically, not really, how all possessions work. 

Or, from what we've seen in both games and books, any of them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Some. Hardly "almost all," we see far more active hunters than sick ones.

 

Eh; the scarcity is the exact reason he was trying to wiggle out of treaty obligations.

 

"Not enough to make a difference for you while not simultaneously leaving us defenseless" were his words if i recall right.

[The Baconer]

Look at that. It doesn't say what you said it said. And you posted it anyway. You said it said the Veil was thinner over than entire City more than any Circle of Magi. 

 

It might be, depending on where one is within the city. Demons can speak to non-mages below the city, and I don't think that is the case in most Circle towers. A constant, ambient "white noise" spilling out from the Fade will certainly have an affect on mental health.

 

Not that this has anything to do with Olivia, who, IMO, chose by her own accord to be possessed.

[Lumix19]

Eh; the scarcity is the exact reason he was trying to wiggle out of treaty obligations.
 
"Not enough to make a difference for you while not simultaneously leaving us defenseless" were his words if i recall right.

I always thought that was just an attempt to get the Warden to help kill Witherfang.

[Master Warder Z_]

I always thought that was just an attempt to get the Warden to help kill Witherfang.

 

Either or; or maybe both?

 

What i do know for a certainty is though the clan's combat strength couldn't even be put to even small scale application, which indicates severe damage.

 

Or the elf not caring about the blight, wouldn't be the first time.

[Br3admax]

Very well. For the sake of clarity, I'll say that it's more heavily cursed than any Circle of Magi.

Again, it doesn't say that. 

And we return to opinion.

Except you know, I've actually stated instances in game where as you have shown nothing but the fact that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, which everyone knew. 

 

 

Some. Hardly "almost all," we see far more active hunters than sick ones.

He said most of his clan was out of commision so he could not aid with the Blight. Even if he said that just to get the Warden's help, it shows that he actually needed the Warden to combat the werewolves, who has already spread the curse to the Dalish. 

 

 

Or, from what we've seen in both games and books, any of them.

Well considering I said it wasn't really that ironic, and that this  was how literally every demonic possession since Origins has been shown to work, I'll just accept that as a concession. 

 

It might be, depending on where one is within the city. Demons can speak to non-mages below the city, and I don't think that is the case in most Circle towers. A constant, ambient "white noise" spilling out from the Fade will certainly have an affect on mental health.

 

Not that this has anything to do with Olivia, who, IMO, chose by her own accord to be possessed.

Of course. but that's not what Xil said. She said the entire city was a "tattered Veil," which is never said. 

[The Baconer]

Of course. but that's not what Xil said. She said the entire city was a "tattered Veil," which is never said. 

 

True.

[Vhaius]

Mages should be given more freedom and the right to govern themselves. When a blood mage or any other mage uses their abilities to harm or extort their way to power, it is the time to bring in the Templars to apprehend the perpetrators; they are to not harm their captors but bring them to the governing body of Mages, where they are to be judged by their leaders. Judgement should also include the King/Queen/Empress/Emperor of where the criminal committed their crimes.

 

My idealist view of how Mage/Templar politics should exist in Thedas.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mages should be given more freedom and the right to govern themselves. When a blood mage or any other mage uses their abilities to harm or extort their way to power, it is the time to bring in the Templars to apprehend the perpetrators; they are to not harm their captors but bring them to the governing body of Mages, where they are to be judged by their leaders. Judgement should also include the King/Queen/Empress/Emperor of where the criminal committed their crimes.

 

My idealist view of how Mage/Templar politics should exist in Thedas.

 

Idealist indeed.

 

Seriously; bringing in blood mages alive *snorts*

[Mimilette]

Idealist indeed.

 

Seriously; bringing in blood mages alive *snorts*

 

I don't know, Jowan was a blood mage. Wasn't he taken alive in the end? With no templars around? Isseya was a very decent person who probably saved Thedas as much as her brother, and it was with blood magic. I don't know if better choices could have been made, but it certainly helped end the 4th Blight. The blood mage who taught her blood magic too was an outstanding soldier who worked as much as every one else to fight the darskspawns and he wasn't even a Grey Warden.

 

I don't like blood magic because it feeds on death and pain, but blood mages are people too. And I think David Gaider stated that blood magic in Thedas was closer to what we saw in Last Flight than what we saw in DA2. I'm fairly certain I've read that even blood mages (or was it demons?) could not, in fact, summon demons left and right, and it was just for gameplay we had to fight them like that.

[raging_monkey]

I don't know, Jowan was a blood mage. Wasn't he taken alive in the end? With no templars around? Isseya was a very decent person who probably saved Thedas as much as her brother, and it was with blood magic. I don't know if better choices could have been made, but it certainly helped end the 4th Blight. The blood mage who taught her blood magic too was an outstanding soldier who worked as much as every one else to fight the darskspawns and he wasn't even a Grey Warden.
 
I don't like blood magic because it feeds on death and pain, but blood mages are people too. And I think David Gaider stated that blood magic in Thedas was closer to what we saw in Last Flight than what we saw in DA2. I'm fairly certain I've read that even blood mages (or was it demons?) could not, in fact, summon demons left and right, and it was just for gameplay we had to fight them like that.

as much as i love BM the lore on it is **** constant retcons i cant keep

[Br3admax]

What retcons? 

[Mimilette]

as much as i love BM the lore on it is **** constant retcons i cant keep

 

I'm not going to lie, I wish they'd make up their mind on it. Hopefully now they have.

But anyway, I'm more in a "hate the sin, not the sinner" mindset, so I don't automatically assume that all blood mages in southern Thedas are monsters that crave power. I feel many of them are just people who made poor life choices.

[raging_monkey]

What retcons?

i was mocking the devs habit of conflicting info on it wasnt serious my friend(i hate not understanding lore just grinds my gears)

I'm not going to lie, I wish they'd make up their mind on it. Hopefully now they have.
But anyway, I'm more in a "hate the sin, not the sinner" mindset, so I don't automatically assume that all blood mages in southern Thedas are monsters that crave power. I feel many of them are just people who made poor life choices.

poor life choices is a understatement * playful shoulder nudge*

[herkles]

Part of the main reason why there is conflicting info is that for the most part all our knowledge is from other characters in the game, who have their own biases and reasons. Because people might have different views they write their different views, or talk to you. They could be misinformed or have their own theories or could be lying. However it is for the most part all In Character. 

 

I personally like this apporach, but I can see why others hate it.