1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Keroko]

I'm not saying mages too weak should be "put in a corner". I can perfectly understand the need to commit someone who's a danger for him/herself and others. You take precautions, and yes, it's a risk, but I believe it's worth it because it's the humane thing to do. You don't go around killing or lobotomizing people preemptively, I mean, even setting aside the moral aspect, it's just screaming for abuse.
 
The Chantry and Templars keep telling us about how mages outside of towers will automatically lead to the mass murder of the population, but I just don't see it. I keep giving the example of the Mage Collective in Ferelden, because if it's not an example of mages policing themselves without the population none the wiser, then I don't know what it is.
 
But I am curious though: is there a lot of "spontaneous" abominations in Tevinter (as in it happened by accident, not intentionally)? I have a hard time believing any society could work that way, which leads me to think that it must not really happen. If that is the case, then I do believe a solid education in a culture that does not condone slavery and with clear counter-power to magic would do wonder.

If the mages in Inquisition have an alternative to handle weak mages who can't resist demons, I'm all for it. But until they give me an alternative, I see no reason to discard the process. Yes, it's amoral, but so is letting dozens people die for the sake of one. In a choice where the only option is one poison or another, I prefer to pick the one that affects the lowest number.

The mage collective in Ferelden is an interesting example (though I'd like to point out that one of the quests is to collect -not destroy, collect- the Scrolls of Banastor, which contain dark blood rituals), but I have another: All the criminal mages we fight over the course of Origins. Some are blood mages, others join bandit clans and then there are some cultists mixed in between. Will freedom for mages mean they all immediately turn to crime? No. But precedent has shown us that a portion will, and to police that portion, a police force is required.

We're not sure on how common abominations are in Tevinter, as we hear so little of it. We do know that in Rivain, a place that plays much more loosely with the rules surrounding magic, abominations do occur. But they're simply accepted as a natural disaster when one goes crazy.

[raging_monkey]

and that right there sum's it up. a Mage is a person, not an animal nor a criminal and unless they commit a crime they should be treated as such.
 
Templars have been shown to been rapist, sadists and murders human filth should we lock up every templar due to their history and capacity of being scum? Of course not that would be disgraceful and yet here we see once again the deep seated hatred and fear spread by templar supporters.
 
"they are worse then us" this is what the rebellion is about, Liberation, Emancipation. You judge a person on what they have done not on what they may have the capacity to do.
 
Hell look at all the mages so weak they can't even light a candle without passing out, none of your fear campaigns even apply to them and yet they are locked up all the same. it's little more then prejudice and superstition a belief that mages = tevinter.
 
"they are worse then us" fear and hate.

agreed now we just wait for his "solution" post

[Xilizhra]

Connor, Meredith's sister, Feynriel, Thrask's daughter, hell even Uldred is an example. Yes, he summoned the demon beforehand, but it shows that even a harrowed mage is not immune to demonic possession. Then there is the knowledge that the Veil naturally weakens at night, when people sleep.

Mages are gateways to demons. We are told this at every circumstance the mage threat is discussed. Even by other mages. 

Summoned a demon, Kirkwall, Kirkwall, summoned a demon. Something more if possible.

 

I cannot, regrettably, check the Last Flight example myself, as I don't own the book. And mages are certainly potential gateways to demons, but I've never once seen anything that ever justified forced Tranquility.

 

 

Our current track record of "Dalish keepers or seconds who safely practised magic" stands at an astonishing one out of four.
 
Not the best example.

My point was mostly about Tranquility.

[Mimilette]

If the mages in Inquisition have an alternative to handle weak mages who can't resist demons, I'm all for it. But until they give me an alternative, I see no reason to discard the process. Yes, it's amoral, but so is letting dozens people die for the sake of one. In a choice where the only option is one poison or another, I prefer to pick the one that affects the lowest number.

The mage collective in Ferelden is an interesting example (though I'd like to point out that one of the quests is to collect -not destroy, collect- the Scrolls of Banastor, which contain dark blood rituals), but I have another: All the criminal mages we fight over the course of Origins. Some are blood mages, others join bandit clans and then there are some cultists mixed in between. Will freedom for mages mean they all immediately turn to crime? No. But precedent has shown us that a portion will, and to police that portion, a police force is required.

We're not sure on how common abominations are in Tevinter, as we hear so little of it. We do know that in Rivain, a place that plays much more loosely with the rules surrounding magic, abominations do occur. But they're simply accepted as a natural disaster when one goes crazy.

 

Then that's where we just disagree then. I think it's worth trying before deciding that no better solutions can be found, and for this risks have to be taken. The fact of the matters is, as long as no one tries, no one knows whether it can work or not.

 

As you say, a police force is required to watch over the mages, but I've never said there shouldn't be a counter-power to mages, and most people I think agree there is need for one. I just don't think it has to be a religious order, and I don't think mages need to be in prison by default.

 

The criminals you're talking about are, from my point of view, another good example that mages, even criminals ones, are not really any more dangerous than other criminals. I mean many of them work for mundanes, not even themselves (though to be honest I'm not sure I remember exactly all the quests. There might have been in fact great mayhem and in that case, I stand corrected). They're so discreet the templars don't catch them, and it's other mages that actually ask you to bring them swift justice. Anyhow, it does not seem that the common people are that much concerned by what happens between outlaws.

 

The example of Rivain, or even the Dalish, is also interesting. Societies can function with mages, their people seem to think the risks, and the accidents too, are worth it.

 

Personally, I just think it's a waste to not try to use that power for good things and trying to make the life of the common folks (mundane and magical) better, instead of fearing it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

and that right there sum's it up. a Mage is a person, not an animal nor a criminal and unless they commit a crime they should be treated as such.

 

Templars have been shown to been rapist, sadists and murders human filth should we lock up every templar due to their history and capacity of being scum? Of course not that would be disgraceful and yet here we see once again the deep seated hatred and fear spread by templar supporters.

 

"they are worse then us" this is what the rebellion is about, Liberation, Emancipation. You judge a person on what they have done not on what they may have the capacity to do.

 

Hell look at all the mages so weak they can't even light a candle without passing out, none of your fear campaigns even apply to them and yet they are locked up all the same. it's little more then prejudice and superstition a belief that mages = tevinter.

 

"they are worse then us" fear and hate.  

This all matter of perception and your own view why you can lock or who you can't animals are living things we still lock them , criminals are living things and we still lock them because they don't fit to society.

 

And this is pretty much nothing more than pro-mage propaganda (pretty much all pro-mage arguments are) that has the purpose to summon emotional response for entire series as far we have saw 2 templars that were rapist and 1 sadist... that pretty could be summon by calling it 7-years old child logic that is crying why he doesn't have toy that neighbor's child have when pretty much response is simple as neighbors could afford this and this child parents couldn't.Mages aren't normal peoples so saying that templars should be locked because mages are locked is just well... it is like comparing a cat to damn tiger and argue that both should be treated same way because they are animals....

 

No you don't that is just naive mentally ill are locked because of what they can do not what they did because society says so , criminals are locked because they did something that society didn't like.

 

Every mage can be possessed by demons so yes they threat every mage the same way because every mage is dangerous to the point human kind wants them and even require lock them to preserve healty and working society.

 

Pretty much sure you used "they are worse than us" card toward animals so well...

[MisterJB]

The mage colective method of policing is to Palace requests in a bag and hope someone feels like killing blood mages for a sovereign.
Saying that that is unreliable would be an understatement.

And might I point out how some of the requests involve warning people who are, supposedly, not blood mages that the Templars are coming by painting their doors with blood? Or recovering scrolls detailing how to summon demons? Or killing "false" witnesses who mistook legal magic for blood magic despite the fact there was a mage amidst said witnesses?
I don't trust them.

[Xilizhra]

The mage colective method of policing is to Palace requests in a bag and hope someone feels like killing blood mages for a sovereign.
Saying that that is unreliable would be an understatement.

And might I point out how some of the requests involve warning people who are, supposedly, not blood mages that the Templars are coming by painting their doors with blood? Or recovering scrolls detailing how to summon demons? Or killing "false" witnesses who mistook legal magic for blood magic despite the fact there was a mage amidst said witnesses?
I don't trust them.

It's warning the relatives of blood mages, not the blood mages themselves (who wouldn't be openly living in Denerim anyway). It's better to not have the scrolls just lying around, but they do contain important information (after all, without researching blood magic, there'd be no Litany of Adralla). And the false witnesses, you don't have to kill.

[Mimilette]

The mage colective method of policing is to Palace requests in a bag and hope someone feels like killing blood mages for a sovereign.
Saying that that is unreliable would be an understatement.

And might I point out how some of the requests involve warning people who are, supposedly, not blood mages that the Templars are coming by painting their doors with blood? Or recovering scrolls detailing how to summon demons? Or killing "false" witnesses who mistook legal magic for blood magic despite the fact there was a mage amidst said witnesses?
I don't trust them.

 

Well they are an illegal association, so not trusting them seems wise. But the question here is not whether they're outlaws or not, since they clearly are. What I question is the Chantry and Templars statement that left to themselves, mages are bound to bring great destruction, that they are so powerful they cannot be contained. I'm just observing that somehow outlaw mages are managing to not set people randomly on fire, to not become spontaneous abominations, to not kill tens of people. And this is happening in an illegal, unsupervised environment. They do commit crimes, but they are no more horrible than their mundane counterpart.

[Tevinter Soldier]

This all matter of perception and your own view why you can lock or who you can't animals are living things we still lock them , criminals are living things and we still lock them because they don't fit to society.

 

And this is pretty much nothing more than pro-mage propaganda (pretty much all pro-mage arguments are) that has the purpose to summon emotional response for entire series as far we have saw 2 templars that were rapist and 1 sadist... that pretty could be summon by calling it 7-years old child logic that is crying why he doesn't have toy that neighbor's child have when pretty much response is simple as neighbors could afford this and this child parents couldn't.Mages aren't normal peoples so saying that templars should be locked because mages are locked is just well... it is like comparing a cat to damn tiger and argue that both should be treated same way because they are animals....

 

No you don't that is just naive mentally ill are locked because of what they can do not what they did because society says so , criminals are locked because they did something that society didn't like.

 

Every mage can be possessed by demons so yes they threat every mage the same way because every mage is dangerous to the point human kind wants them and even require lock them to preserve healty and working society.

 

Pretty much sure you used "they are worse than us" card toward animals so well...

 

and again you post dribble, animals, criminals, the insane.

all your bogeymen. and no competent legal system would ever lock up a mentally ill person unless they had caused violence. again you carry on about potential. and yet dismiss the potential of others all the same. 

 

still raving on about "potential" what "could" happen. fear and hate.

 

you carry on about dangerous animals, but we don't an animal unless you Know its vicious, you don't send someone to prison unless you KNOW they have committed a crime. you don't lock up the mentally ill unless they have harmed themselves or others.

 

None of these things are done pre-emptively.

A mage is not dangerous a mage is potentially dangerous. Just like an other person.

we do not harm people or even animals for what they "could" do. for all your gloating you've nothing but fear and hate.

 

"their worse then us" sums up your argument i'm glad you broke out of your veneer of false protection long enough to let slip this insight. things are so much clearer now.

 

all you have is fear and hate. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Because drugs can be endlessly reproduced. The red lyrium on the other hand, is spawned from the rifts and extremely rare outside of those rifts. Once we close the rifts, supplies will run out. We'll still have extremist templars, but not 'turn into behemoth' extreme ones.
 
Make no mistake, red lyrium is a threat we should take seriously. But it's a threat that has an end. The mage problem does not.

And yes, abominations are rare. Because until recently there was a system in place that severely lowered the chances of mages becoming them. But even so, one abomination can slay dozens, if not hundreds of people. That is not a risk to take lightly.

 

Maybe. The trick with red lyrium is that it doesn't take much to have an effect on people(see Varric Tethras' loyalty quest "Haunted"). So in essence it would not be hard to hide. The Red Lyrium threat may have an end, but it likely won't come for a very long time, especially if the "mage problem" as they see it, continues.

 

The circle system certainly helped to prevent abominations. But at this point you can argue whether the circles did more harm than good. You have Rivaini seers, hedge mages, and other magic users who have not and will not become abominations. All without the circle. And then you have your annulments, rebellions; entire factions dedicated to destroying what they see as their slavery due to their time spent in the circle system.

 

It isn't a risk to take lightly, agreed. But how this risk is handled is the core of the "mage problem".

[EmperorSahlertz]

and again you post dribble, animals, criminals, the insane.

all your bogeymen. and no competent legal system would ever lock up a mentally ill person unless they had caused violence. again you carry on about potential. and yet dismiss the potential of others all the same.

We lock up the mentally ill in asylums and hospitals all the time, all over the world.... Even without them having commited any violence beforehand...

 

It is all about risk, probability and damage control.

[TheKomandorShepard]

and again you post dribble, animals, criminals, the insane.

all your bogeymen. and no competent legal system would ever lock up a mentally ill person unless they had caused violence. again you carry on about potential. and yet dismiss the potential of others all the same. 

 

still raving on about "potential" what "could" happen. fear and hate.

 

you carry on about dangerous animals, but we don't an animal unless you Know its vicious, you don't send someone to prison unless you KNOW they have committed a crime. you don't lock up the mentally ill unless they have harmed themselves or others.

 

None of these things are done pre-emptively.

A mage is not dangerous a mage is potentially dangerous. Just like an other person. we do not harm people or even animals for what they "could" do.

 

nothing but fear and hate. "their worse then us" sums up your argument i'm glad you broke out of your veneer of false protection long enough to let slip this insight. things are so much clearer now.

 

all you have is fear and hate. 

And again you ignore logic... it is all about potential damage... you don't treat a knife the same way as machine gun because both are weapons you can find knife in every kitchen but you can't lay your finger on machine gun why because machine gun is much more dangerous. So quit comparing mage to normal person (as they were equally dangerous) it is just ridiculous.

 

You lock bear not because bear killed person you lock bear because bear could potentially kill person and there are good chances they will same with mages.

You use security measures because of what peoples can do not what they did same with mages.

Mages are always dangerous like it or not always mage is person with machine gun (no with much more destructive and unstable weapon called magic) you can't remove from them.   

 

Not rly in first place "they are worse then us" isn't even reason why mages are in circles... Mages are in circles because they are dangerous and peoples in thedas treat them as such considering life standarts mages are given in circles (that are better than most peoples in thedas have) argument they are locked because "they are worse than us" is just pitiable and as i said before just to provoke emotional response what pro-mages often do using words like slavery and abuse toward circles.  

 

Same as above i don't fear mages neither i hate them as in first place i don't live even in that universe and for me mages aren't threat.It is called common sense same that tells you shouldn't bring lion to your home

 

 

We lock up the mentally ill in asylums and hospitals all the time, all over the world.... Even without them having commited any violence beforehand...

 

It is all about risk, probability and damage control.

Pretty much short and easy summation what im saying.

[Sports72Xtrm]

If mages are just walking nukes able to set off a global calamity, why is it that people think it's smart to http://tvtropes.org/...BullyingADragon? Doesn't sound logical to me.

[Xilizhra]

We lock up the mentally ill in asylums and hospitals all the time, all over the world.... Even without them having commited any violence beforehand...

 

It is all about risk, probability and damage control.

I'll also say that our mental health system needs a great deal of work. I'm not an expert in the field myself, but I can consult with one of the people living with me if you want a larger assessment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'll also say that our mental health system needs a great deal of work. I'm not an expert in the field myself, but I can consult with one of the people living with me if you want a larger assessment.

Not really necessary. I don't know the detail, but I know enough. If a person with scizophrenia cannot discern between imagination and reality, then you need to contain him, until either treatment can be administered, or that he dies. Otherwise he would be a danger to himself and everyone around him. Simple as that.

 

Now granted mages are not mentally ill (usually anyway). Howeer it is not really the mages that are the issue either. It is the demons. So until a mage is 100% free from the risk of possession, he must be contained. Sadly there is no way to achieve 100%.

[Tevinter Soldier]

We lock up the mentally ill in asylums and hospitals all the time, all over the world.... Even without them having commited any violence beforehand...

 

It is all about risk, probability and damage control.

 

not in any civilised country they don't, a person is taken in for an assessment if their in the street acting nuts but they are released soon after provided they can care for themselves (key point here, this is demonstrated that the person can't take care of themselves it's not this person is mentally ill and might one day not be able to look after themselves) a person who is non violent is not locked up unless they have demonstrated they are in immediate danger, its got nothing to do with anything you suggested its about serving the best interest of the patient. Nobody else, a competent doctor will not lock someone up because you're afraid of them.

 

if the things you sighted are happening in your country you should write to your local politician because your country 30 years behind in how to deal with mental health.

[Tevinter Soldier]

And again you ignore logic... it is all about potential damage... you don't treat a knife the same way as machine gun because both are weapons you can find knife in every kitchen but you can't lay your finger on machine gun why because machine gun is much more dangerous. So quit comparing mage to normal person (as they were equally dangerous) it is just ridiculous.

 

You lock bear not because bear killed person you lock bear because bear could potentially kill person and there are good chances they will same with mages.

You use security measures because of what peoples can do not what they did same with mages.

Mages are always dangerous like it or not always mage is person with machine gun (no with much more destructive and unstable weapon called magic) you can't remove from them.   

 

Not rly in first place "they are worse then us" isn't even reason why mages are in circles... Mages are in circles because they are dangerous and peoples in thedas treat them as such considering life standarts mages are given in circles (that are better than most peoples in thedas have) argument they are locked because "they are worse than us" is just pitiable and as i said before just to provoke emotional response what pro-mages often do using words like slavery and abuse toward circles.  

 

Same as above i don't fear mages neither i hate them as in first place i don't live even in that universe and for me mages aren't threat.It is called common sense same that tells you shouldn't bring lion to your home

 

 

Pretty much short and easy summation what im saying.

 

again you just can't do it without equating a mage to an animal or a weapon, their people, every time you post is nothing more then a well written rant designed to dehumanise them so people are more accepting of your barbaric outlook.

 

people aren't knives aren't machine guns and aren't lions. their people!

[EmperorSahlertz]

not in any civilised country they don't, a person is taken in for an assessment if their in the street acting nuts but they are released soon after provided they can care for themselves (key point here, this is demonstrated that the person can't take care of themselves it's not this person is mentally ill and might one day not be able to look after themselves) a person who is non violent is not locked up unless they have demonstrated they are in immediate danger, its got nothing to do with anything you suggested its about serving the best interest of the patient. Nobody else, a competent doctor will not lock someone up because you're afraid of them.

 

if the things you sighted are happening in your country you should write to your local politician because your country 30 years behind in how to deal with mental health.

You can very well submit a mentally ill person to treatment, AGAINST his will. And you certainly shouldn't let a mentally ill person go, just because he demosntrates a capability of buying milk from the local corner shop. It all depends on the severity of the illness.

[TheKomandorShepard]

again you just can't do it without equating a mage to an animal or a weapon, their people, every time you post is nothing more then a well written rant designed to dehumanise them so people are more accepting of your barbaric outlook.

 

people aren't knives aren't machine guns and aren't lions. their people!

Peoples are just another living thing in universe but point missed again as i was talking about scale of danger that you fail to notice and my outlook is pure truth humans destroy another creatures including another humans to survive and realize their own goals.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Peoples are just another living thing in universe but point missed again as i was talking about scale of danger that you fail to notice and my outlook is pure truth humans destroy another creatures including another humans to survive and realize their own goals.

 

So now you're appealing to Amorality? in which case Mundanes have presented a clear threat to Mages in the south and as a result all mages can easily argue Mundanes as whole present a clear and present threat to the survivability of Mages.

 

Spare me the bull if you were amoral you wouldn't care one way or the other. you cannot present a case based on fear and thats all it is fear of what could happen. then frame it as simply rational choice. 

 

You've stated over and over again mages are a danger. this is fear based on their capabilities its completely emotional, one emotion in particular FEAR. 

[lordsaren101]

There is no justification for containment as you say. Magic is a gift not a disease. The disease is fear, so in reality the fearful should be caged and contained...since we are so keen on containment.

[Tevinter Soldier]

You can very well submit a mentally ill person to treatment, AGAINST his will. And you certainly shouldn't let a mentally ill person go, just because he demosntrates a capability of buying milk from the local corner shop. It all depends on the severity of the illness.

 

no it depends on the person's ability to function in everyday life. that's literally how its assessed, If they can function they are given medication and treatment dates such as therapy sessions are arranged.

 

Obviously people who cannot function such as having trouble distinguishing fiction from reality or prone being overwhelmed with emotion or other such things they may be told its better for them to be locked up. But detaining them against their will in civilised country is the absolute last resort and needs extraordinary set of circumstance to take place. 

 

They aren't detained for being mentally ill they are detained for what they have done or aren't capable of doing as a result of their mental illness, once again we're back to ACTION'S no doctor would sign off on a person being detained simply because they have a mental illness.(and personally i believe its pretty shitty to misrepresent how mentally ill people are treated by medical practitioners to score points) 

 

Likewise a mage shouldn't be detained unless they actually do something wrong. or prove they can't handle their power. you don't shrug you're shoulders and say eh their mages. that's barbaric and unnecessary.

[lordsaren101]

@TS
He has no real point so he tries to bring a poor real world example into play then skews it to suit his means, poorly I might add.

[Mimilette]

There is no justification for containment as you say. Magic is a gift not a disease. The disease is fear, so in reality the fearful should be caged and contained...since we are so keen on containment.

 

Your subtlety amuses me greatly. I wish I didn't run out of likes.

 

... I still hope the decadent Tevinter will fall one day though. But no hard feelings, dear magister.

[KingTony]

Hey raging_monkey, want some popcorn?