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[EmissaryofLies]

 

 

Bandits don't live next door to me, and even if they did guards would be there. Assassins don't think most people are important enough. And psychopaths can be dealt with as much as anyone else. Controversially, there is no way for a single mundane that isn't a Templar to deal with any mage. 

 

 

Bandits or thugs can live next door to you and/or murder you in the street, an assassin might be given a contract against you, psychopaths can be dealt with but will it be too late for you?

 

There are plenty of mundanes that can deal with mages, Tallis for instance. Your regular ordinary joe will have more trouble, as they would against the psycho or bandit. The various mercenary organizations, grey wardens, are also parties to consider.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So now you're appealing to Amorality? in which case Mundanes have presented a clear threat to Mages in the south and as a result all mages can easily argue Mundanes as whole present a clear and present threat to the survivability of Mages.

 

Spare me the bull if you were amoral you wouldn't care one way or the other. you cannot present a case based on fear and thats all it is fear of what could happen. then frame it as simply rational choice. 

 

You've stated over and over again mages are a danger. this is fear based on their capabilities its completely emotional, one emotion in particular FEAR. 

That isn't even a point at least in that conversation not mention that i always hold amoral stance here not involving morality so...

 

Wait wait what being amoral have to do with caring about something?If this is fear every society is based on fear becuase they take means to prevent many things they don't want to happen...

 

And still bears are locked because peoples fear them i didn't hear your complains did i?

 

 

@TS
He has no real point so he tries to bring a poor real world example into play then skews it to suit his means, poorly I might add.

Yeah i have no real points what is safety you kind sir should rule whole world im sure under your supreme rule we could live in utopia but screw safety who needs that right?

[Mimilette]

We have no concrete numbers both on the members of the Collective or that of how many magical accidents are caused, precisely because of their actions. Thus, we can only have a perception of them by their methods.

Some of the requests are highly suspicious and their "policing system" relies entirely on luck.

For instance, there is a quest where we are supposed to check on an apprentice that has failed to contact its master. When we reach him, he's an Abomination.

Has that Abomination killed already? If it hasn't, then that was only possible through tremendous luck. What if no one had take the request? What if someone less skilled than the Warden did and was killed?

Had that apprentice been in a Circle, none of that would have happened. Even if he became possessed, he would be surrounded by an army of Templars and away from potential victims.

 

But that's exactly my point though. The simple fact that common folks don't seem to even notice or care the collective exists, that Templars don't seem able to catch them, is proof enough that the whole "locking up mages for the greater good" argument isn't one. How am I supposed to believe that mages deserve to be locked up because their potential for mayhem is too high, while at the same time seeing that criminal mages do not even manage to do worse things that the usual mundane criminals?

 

And bringing up the Templars and the Circle will not convince me after what happened at the Ferelden Circle: I think I might have seen more demons and possessed people in that Circle than all other part of Ferelden combined, and as for the Templars, they either fled, got killed, were possessed, and one captured. Meanwhile grandma Wynne, a bunch of mages and children managed to resist possession, resist the demons, and it's a dying mage in the Fade that saved everyone skin by giving a spell against Uldred. So no, I'm not really sold on the effectiveness of Templars against demons and possession.

[MisterJB]

So tell me, you have some teenager in your neighbourhood, going through puberty suddenly learns he/she is capable of this stuff. all they want is to live a normal life hang out with their friends nd family and do normal kid stuff.

 

which is most likely to result in things going to ****.

 

A) have other people like her/him educate him/her train her/him and assists him/her through this so they can control things and live a normal happy life.

or

said teenager being terrified of what they can do, worried about being a social outcast and worried about neighbours dobbing in so some police force of junkies can haul him/her off to prison for the rest of their life and with absolutely nobody to talk to about it because of that................................... and while all of this is going on in addition to all the normal emotional issues with going through puberty... there's a demonic voice that speaks to them, it becomes literally the only thing in the world that could possibly understand them.

You do realize there are mages in the Circles providing young mages with training and assistance while still being isolated from population centers and with hundreds of guards around to intervene in case something goes wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Br3admax]

Bandits or thugs can live next door to you and/or murder you in the street, an assassin might be given a contract against you, psychopaths can be dealt with but will it be too late for you?

I don't think you know what a bandit is. As for thugs, again, thugs can't use mind control to kill me, make me kill myself, turn me into a meat suit, or set me on fire with a though. A good sword arm would defuse that situation as good as a frying pan and calling for the guards. Assassins can have a contract to kill me. Okay. Still a much better chance of me killing them, than me killing a mage. Considering no one just up and becomes a psychopath one day, yes. There would probably be telltale signs. Not that exactly any of these things are legal either, so what is your point? 

 

There are plenty of mundanes that can deal with mages, Tallis for instance. 

She took a whole group of people, one of which was a Templar, with her. 

 

 

Your regular ordinary joe will have more trouble, as they would against the psycho or bandit. The various mercenary organizations, grey wardens, are also parties to consider.

lol All those mercenary organizations have mages. 

[Mimilette]

 

  

 

Bandits don't live next door to me, and even if they did guards would be there. Assassins don't think most people are important enough. And psychopaths can be dealt with as much as anyone else. Controversially, there is no way for a single mundane that isn't a Templar to deal with any mage. 

 

 

Absolutely anyone, at anytime, can potentially kill you. Especially in Thedas. They don't even have to approach you, an arrow would suffice. Unless you have some kind of mind reading power, saying something like "no bandits live next door" is a wild guess and that's it. Criminals don't wear a big sign saying "I'm a bad person".

 

A Templar won't help you with a mortal wound. A mage might actually save your life.

[Xilizhra]

You do realize there are mages in the Circles providing young mages with training and assistance while still being isolated from population centers and with hundreds of guards around to intervene in case something goes wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Interestingly, none of my proposed reforms to the Circle would be mutually exclusive to this either. Though I probably need to work on new means to ease the burden of familial separation...

[Br3admax]

Absolutely anyone, at anytime, can potentially kill you. Especially in Thedas. They don't even have to approach you, an arrow would suffice. Unless you have some kind of mind reading power, saying something like "no bandits live next door" is a wild guess and that's it. Criminals don't wear a big sign saying "I'm a bad person".

Again, you seem to have a problem with understanding statistics. The chances of me fighting off a would be killer that isn't a mage is so much higher than me killing a mage. You also seem to think that mages turning into killers is the only reason their in tworers. It's only one of oh so many. 

A Templar won't help you with a mortal wound. A mage might actually save your life.

All mages can't heal wounds. In fact, very little can even begin to. Where as a Templar can definitely save my life as much as the average mage can. 

[raging_monkey]

Interestingly, none of my proposed reforms to the Circle would be mutually exclusive to this either. Though I probably need to work on new means to ease the burden of familial separation...

can you pm me your ideas im curious

[Mimilette]

I would have a better chance of defending myself as opposed to say, against someone who can control my blood. And a non-magical neighbor couldn't destroy a town like Connor can.

And, as crude s it may sound, it's not feasible to have everyone but myself imprisoned so that I can feel safe; therefore, we seek ther ways of protecting ourselves. It I, however, feasible to do it to mages because Thedosians have been doing it for nearly 900 years.

 

What destroyed Redcliffe was a scared child that was hidden by his mother, because of the very system you're defending. If she hadn't been afraid to lose her child, he would have received the necessary education and things would have probably gone much differently.

Yes, Connor, like Meredith sister, is a perfect example on how well the current system is not working. It's completely ignoring that people will be people, and parents will be parents.

[MisterJB]

But that's exactly my point though. The simple fact that common folks don't seem to even notice or care the collective exists, that Templars don't seem able to catch them, is proof enough that the whole "locking up mages for the greater good" argument isn't one. How am I supposed to believe that mages deserve to be locked up because their potential for mayhem is too high, while at the same time seeing that criminal mages do not even manage to do worse things that the usual mundane criminals?

 

And bringing up the Templars and the Circle will not convince me after what happened at the Ferelden Circle: I think I might have seen more demons and possessed people in that Circle than all other part of Ferelden combined, and as for the Templars, they either fled, got killed, were possessed, and one captured. Meanwhile grandma Wynne, a bunch of mages and children managed to resist possession, resist the demons, and it's a dying mage in the Fade that saved everyone skin by giving a spell against Uldred. So no, I'm not really sold on the effectiveness of Templars against demons and possession.

I'm certain the people noticed, they simply don't have a name to blame their grievances on. If said apprentice turned Abomination killed a hundred ala Meredith's sister, the people would just say "Basted robes".

And, obviously, there will be much more tragedies caused by normal bandits than by mages because the outside world is mostly populated by normal people. What's the capita? 1 mage per a thousand "mundanes"?

However, one singular Abomination can killed hundreds of people. One singular bandit can't do that. If the number of mages in the outside world increases, then so will, inevitably, the number of deaths caused by magic.

And that is assuming the proportion of criminals or "will-be Abominations" in the magical population is at the same percentage as in the non-magical population which isn't necessarily true.

 

 

Also, Broken Circle proved beyond shadow of doubt that the Circle works. Yes, the Templars were overwhelmed and had to pull back; the numbers of dead mages and Templars were great and yet, how many civilian casualties? Zero.

Why? Because it occurred in the Circle. How many would have died had Uldred done the same in Denerim?

 

[Xilizhra]

can you pm me your ideas im curious

I'll almost certainly have to bring them up in this thread, but the short version is that I would allow the Circle system to exist under the Chantry's auspices if mages got fair representation within the Chantry's government, able to take any official position within the Chantry. And if templars for individual Circles work for those Circles directly, with the Chantry's police representatives being the Seekers. And if we ban Annulment, make the Harrowing safer, and remove involuntary Tranquility.

 

Also, Broken Circle proved beyond shadow of doubt that the Circle works. Yes, the Templars were overwhelmed and had to pull back; the numbers of dead mages and Templars were great and yet, how many civilian casualties? Zero.

Why? Because it occurred in the Circle. How many would have died had Uldred done the same in Denerim?

Well, actually, there was a shitload of civilian casualties, both mage and Tranquil.

[Br3admax]

What destroyed Redcliffe was a scared child that was hidden by his mother, because of the very system you're defending. If she hadn't been afraid to lose her child, he would have received the necessary education and things would have probably gone much differently.

Yes, Connor, like Meredith sister, is a perfect example on how well the current system is not working. It's completely ignoring that people will be people, and parents will be parents.

You do realise that if Connor or Meredith's sister were in a Circle, they probably wouldn't trust the first demon they met, yes? 

[EmissaryofLies]

I don't think you know what a bandit is. As for thugs, again, thugs can't use mind control to kill me, make me kill myself, turn me into a meat suit, or set me on fire with a though. A good sword arm would defuse that situation as good as a frying pan and calling for the guards. Assassins can have a contract to kill me. Okay. Still a much better chance of me killing them, than me killing a mage. Considering no one just up and becomes a psychopath one day, yes. There would probably be telltale signs. Not that exactly any of these things are legal either, so what is your point?

I know what a bandit is, do you? Thugs can slit your throat, gut you like a fish, shoot you with arrows, blow you up, and otherwise make short work of you.

I'm sure you have a great chance at killing an Antivan Crow over some average mage, lol. You act as if mages are these invulnerable engines of destruction that cannot be gutted just like anyone else....But they can.

Yes, because a smart psychopath can't drug you, tie you up and torture you for fun... Or wait in your house and do much of the same.

She took a whole group of people, one of which was a Templar, with her.

Yes, because an elite assassin would have trouble with an Emile de Launcet type for instance.

lol All those mercenary organizations have mages.

Your point? Are you trying to say that they are somehow incapable of dealing with mages without having mages of their own?

And last I checked, Qunari are not templars. So there goes that point.

[MisterJB]

And if templars for individual Circles work for those Circles directly,

Yeah, just brilliant. Have the police being paid by the ones they are supposed to police.

What could possibly go wrong? Just imagine, Orsino wouldn't have to conceal the truth about Quentin. He could just pay the Templars to ignore it. Heck, just bring the women to the Circle, better conditions to work here. What, the Templars? No worry, they work for us now.

 

It's inane.

[Mimilette]

I'm sorry you feel that way but that which is more logic can  objectively as opposed to that which is more moral which is more open to interpretation.I

If, for instance, I am trapped in a car under rubble with someone else, it is only logical that I kill that person so I have more air for myself and thus a greater chance of survival. Is it the right thing to do? Probably not. But it is logical like fearing everyone but yourself is because you can not know the minds of anyone but yourself. The lengths to which you go to achieve this can, however, be illogical such as, for instance, killing everyone who is not you.

 

Anyway. some pro-mages have presented sound and logical arguments against the Circle system. For instance whether it is beneficial to the mental health of mages which probably plays an important role I fending off demons.

However there hasn't been much of that in the previous pages. Mostly ts' "appeals to humanity" which are illogical.
 

 

Well, at least you're frank about your motivations, I can respect that.

I do happen to think that treating others humanely is not illogical at all however. In the grand scheme of things, humanity stands stronger united than divided. I would say that my stance might even be more cold blooded than yours, because I do acknowledge the fact that accidents will happen and some people will probably get killed, but that's still a risk worth taking in the hope that progress can be achieved.

[Br3admax]

I know what a bandit is, do you? 

 

You obviously don't if you think they live next door to you.

Thugs can slit your throat, gut you like a fish, shoot you with arrows, blow you up, and otherwise make short work of you.

Controversy, i can do the exact same thing to them. I can also defend myself. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to let someone kill you. 

 

I'm sure you have a great chance at killing an Antivan Crow over some average mage, lol. You act as if mages are these invulnerable engines of destruction that cannot be gutted just like anyone else....But they can.

The average mage can light any master assassin on fire without a second thought. They don't need to be indestructible. 

 

 

Yes, because a smart psychopath can't drug you, tie you up and torture you for fun... Or wait in your house and do much of the same.

 

In Thedas, no they can't. The chances of them acquiring such drugs without already being part of the higher ups and let to do what they do, ala Kelder is near zero. In our world, they are locked away, much like mages. 

 

 

Yes, because an elite assassin would have trouble with an Emile de Launcet type for instance.
 

 

Emile is an idiot. And a drunk one at that. Controversially, most mages are fairly intelligent, and most blood mages even more so. They have powers far beyond that of a drunk in Lowtown. All things that an assassin would not be able to contend with, demons among them. 

 

I also like how you're ignroing the fact that none of these things are legal, and that no single one of them can kill hundreds of people. 

 

 

Your point? Are you trying to say that they are somehow incapable of dealing with mages without having mages of their own?

Probably. Unless they have:

 

a. overwhelming numbers

b. The means to match or combat magic

 

They will die. 

 

 

 

And last I checked, Qunari are not templars. So there goes that point.

Last I checked, qunari nip that in the bud the first chance they get, so my point stands. It's not like their mages are even allowed to not live in metal suits, let alone run wild and free. 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, just brilliant. Have the police being paid by the ones they are supposed to police.

What could possibly go wrong? Just imagine, Orsino wouldn't have to conceal the truth about Quentin. He could just pay the Templars to ignore it. Heck, just bring the women to the Circle, better conditions to work here. What, the Templars? No worry, they work for us now.

 

It's inane.

Yeah, that's... kind of how it works everywhere. Local police are paid by public funds gathered from taxes paid by the local populace. And I'm reasonably sure that a city mayor or state governor doing something illegal under state law is also supposed to be arrested by the people they're paying. Obviously, there are any number of ways the FBI might get involved, but that's what the Seekers are for in this analogy.

 

It's a blatant invitation to conflict of interest and dissociation from one's charges if the templars are beholden to some greater power out in Orlais, as opposed to the people they're protecting. Obviously the templars should uphold the law (provided that law is just), but the important thing is that it's the law, not just the whims of Chantry officials.

[Mimilette]

I'm certain the people noticed, they simply don't have a name to blame their grievances on. If said apprentice turned Abomination killed a hundred ala Meredith's sister, the people would just say "Basted robes".

And, obviously, there will be much more tragedies caused by normal bandits than by mages because the outside world is mostly populated by normal people. What's the capita? 1 mage per a thousand "mundanes"?

However, one singular Abomination can killed hundreds of people. One singular bandit can't do that. If the number of mages in the outside world increases, then so will, inevitably, the number of deaths caused by magic.

And that is assuming the proportion of criminals or "will-be Abominations" in the magical population is at the same percentage as in the non-magical population which isn't necessarily true.

 

 

Also, Broken Circle proved beyond shadow of doubt that the Circle works. Yes, the Templars were overwhelmed and had to pull back; the numbers of dead mages and Templars were great and yet, how many civilian casualties? Zero.

Why? Because it occurred in the Circle. How many would have died had Uldred done the same in Denerim?

 

Well Uldred might not have become what he became to begin with if he hadn't wanted to be free from the Circle. We'll never know. And as for lives, I think that mages and templars lifes are as much valuables as other people lives. So no, I don't think that the dead being mages and templars only is better.

[EmissaryofLies]

"Whoever you be, you owe fealty to any magister of Tevinter. On your knees! All of you!"

Perhaps they were further ahead then their Andrastian counterparts.

They figured out that they would never be left alone and thus decided to be the butcher rather than the cattle.

[MisterJB]

Yeah, that's... kind of how it works everywhere. Local police are paid by public funds gathered from taxes paid by the local populace. And I'm reasonably sure that a city mayor or state governor doing something illegal under state law is also supposed to be arrested by the people they're paying. Obviously, there are any number of ways the FBI might get involved, but that's what the Seekers are for in this analogy.

 

It's a blatant invitation to conflict of interest and dissociation from one's charges if the templars are beholden to some greater power out in Orlais, as opposed to the people they're protecting.

There are a ton of loopholes and checks in place before money ever reaches a policeman's pocket. We don't exactly have prison guards being handed, directly, money from inmates, do we?

The people the Templars protect are the normal people. Your suggestion is the equivalent of giving mages a private army. It would be preferable to actually have mages policing themselves but then don't be surprised if there are Templars in every street corner ready to kill any mage that gets within a hundred meters of the city.

[TTTX]

"Whoever you be, you owe fealty to any magister of Tevinter. On your knees! All of you!"

[MisterJB]

What destroyed Redcliffe was a scared child that was hidden by his mother, because of the very system you're defending. If she hadn't been afraid to lose her child, he would have received the necessary education and things would have probably gone much differently.

Yes, Connor, like Meredith sister, is a perfect example on how well the current system is not working. It's completely ignoring that people will be people, and parents will be parents.

You're not entirely wrong. But there are certain things to take into consideration.

1-Isolde is an arlessa. The chances of her not seeing her kid again are slim, at best. If she is unwilling to not have her son under her wing 24/7, then she is the one being unreasonable, not the Circle.

2-As for Meredith's sister, remember that what she said was that her parents were not afraid of never seeing their daughter again but rather of her being unable to survive the difficulties of the Circle which are, sadly, necessary.

 

It is important to impart upon the masses just how vital the rules of the Circle are. Inevitably, some will ignore and believe their child is the exception. Still, better some isolated incidents than widespread chaos.

I'm sure you'll claim it's possible to make it so that every parent is eager to send their kid to a Circle while still protecting society but I don't believe that.

 

 

 

[MisterJB]

Well Uldred might not have become what he became to begin with if he hadn't wanted to be free from the Circle. We'll never know. And as for lives, I think that mages and templars lifes are as much valuables as other people lives. So no, I don't think that the dead being mages and templars only is better.

 

Perhaps but did Danarius ever wish to be free from a Circle? And he was worse than Uldred.

Never mind Corypheus.

 

You prerogative. Templars and mages aren't considered civilians and thus, I won't as well. But you do have to admit that given the smaller numbers living in a Circle when compared to living in a city as well as the number of people who can defend themselves and who are just a corridor away means than the number of casualties will always be lower if the incidents occur within the Circle as opposed to within a city.