296 réponses à ce sujet

[Rane7685]

Because it ended up in the twitter thread and shouldnt really be there....

 

EDIT: Topic title change to make it clearer what this is

Modifié par Rane7685, 03 novembre 2014 - 01:57 .

[Rane7685]

SurelyForth, on 03 Nov 2014 - 9:15 PM, said:

No, what he said was kind of dismissive (the first time, the second time he was a little less Gaidertastic) and the people who responded did make excellent points about these sorts of decisions. DA is especially egregious, because casual misogyny shouldn't really be a thing considering that their Jesus figure is a warrior woman and their equivalent of the Catholic church is matriarchal. And that casual misogyny definitely shouldn't include things like Fereldans using "b*tch" as a perjorative (considering they revere dogs). But even with that aside, Thedas is not a perfect real world analogue and it would be nice for female gamers to get to play around in a fantasy world as women and not be smacked in the face by the same sort of sexist BS we encounter every day. If people on the BSN can complain endlessly about stuff that doesn't matter IRL, like attribute points and qunari hairstyles, I don't see why women (and POC and GLBT individuals) can't also voice their opinions about the way the game depicts and refers to them. 

 

A few things... Just because your revered hero is a woman does not necessarily mean the world is not going to have misogyny. In the real world we have the Virgin Mary (Christianity) and a warrior woman (Joan of Arc (who I always imagined Andraste was modeled on)) and misogyny is pretty rife in the real world. Regarding ****** as a pejorative I would hazard that the word ****** long ago moved away from being defined as a female dog. The same word in different contexts means a whole host of different things. ****** is a pejorative that is translated for us, in the way it is used it doesnt usually mean you are a female dog.

 

As for not wanting a world with any sexism, that's fine but it clearly was not a story that Bioware wants to tell. There is something to be said for the lack of choice but it would be an unusual road for Bioware to take. Bioware has always wanted to explore themes like bigotry (whether it be a take on rascism (see city elves)) or religious dogma and xenophobia (templars and mages). 

 

Thedas might not be a real world analogue but it is supposed to mirror at least in some respects themes from our own world. Humanity generally tends to draw fault lines amongst people who are different and dragon age is a game made by humans for humans and it is supposed to be relatable. It is also I would venture not designed to be a utopian world free of petty prejudices. As far as sexism goes I feel like you are overstating it massively when you call dragon age "especially egregious". Egregious relative to what? Dragon Age, at least as far as sexism goes, seems to show a fairly equal attitude to the sexes especially compared to other depictions of women in media. 

 

Again asking for a utopian sexism free gaming story and world is fine but I suspect you wont find it here simply because you arent meant to. If it is any consolation at all though Bioware usually gives you both the dialogue options to express your feelings about it in game, and the agency to actually make a difference to the world youre in.

 

A final thought, it may be well to demand particular stories (although I would personally advocate persuasion) but bear in mind that you are not the only audience. Many (and I would hazard the majority) of adult gamers that play games for story would like to play games that deal with these kinds of themes. I know I personally like darker worlds. I would very much hate to play a story driven game in some kind of pixar paradise. Id rather play nintendo (and not for the story) 

[MasterPrudent]

If this thread is going to be a thing I think it needs a little bit of context (and perhaps a title change):

 

I'm continuing this rather combustible topic because it is derailing the twitter thread something fierce. That said it's a potentially interesting discussion and I think it's worth having so long as folks are respectful and remember to play the arguement and not the woman.

 

So Mr David Gaider, lead writer on Dragon Age: Inquisition, recently responded to two comments related to how sexism was portrayed within the setting and whether it should be something that should be portrayed within the setting at all.

 

Here are the posts:

 

dragonageconfessions:

CONFESSION:

I love DA, but it’s depressing how sexist Thedas is. Despite women having the same roles as men, f!Warden gets plenty of NPCs expressing shock or mockery at her being a Warden/fighter. She can even say “I swear I’m the bravest one here and I’m a woman!” at her Joining. Then there’s the dwarven system, Isabela being called a ****** for her promiscuity, and the sheer amout of rape (against women) plots in the DA world - including darkspawn breeding.

Interesting. Are there people under the impression we were aiming for a sexism-free setting? If so, I can safely say that is not the case. Thedas is not *as* sexist as our world is, due in part to the greater role that women play in faith and thus society in general, but it is still plenty full of conflict, oppression, and people who are awful and biased and, yes, sexist.

 

If someone believes it would be better to have a setting without these things, that’s fine. It was, however, never part of the plan for Dragon Age. I am perfectly fine with having repugnant elements in our setting and our stories—so long as those elements are repugnant by design, and not by accident. The latter is something we can and will work on, the former is just something we’ll have to disagree about.

 

 

hornyvivienne:

“Are there people under the impression we were aiming for a sexism-free setting?”

One of the first descriptions in the CC is ‘Men and women are equal in Thedas.’ That implies that sexism doesn’t — or shouldn’t — exist. If there was equality between all genders including men and women, then there wouldn’t be discrimination of any kinds, and that doesn’t only include overt sexism, it includes microaggressions. That would also mean a lack of misogynoir, transmisogyny and the like.

 

“If someone believes it would be better to have a setting without these things, that’s fine.”

Why do we need bigotry in game? Why is it a necessity to have women being raped or murdered in game? Why is it a-okay to have Isabela being called a ‘side dish’ and a ‘******’, to have the female Warden called a ****** — or even for Anora to be called a ****** by a female Warden of all people?

 

I mean, it’s all very well for you to sit there and say that you’re okay with having repugnant elements in game as long as it’s ‘by design’, but men don’t actually experience sexism in everyday life. You don’t know what it’s like to be subjected to a barrage of rape threats for speaking up on the internet, or being harassed on the street for having the nerve to exist.

I don’t need to play a game and be reminded how much men actually hate women. I don’t want my female Inquisitor to be called a harlot or a ****** in a world where equality between all genders is supposed to exist.

Maybe you’re okay with that, but I am 100% not.

The description you (and some others) are referring to says “men and women are generally equal in Thedas”. You can ignore the “generally” if you wish, but you really shouldn’t. There are plenty of places in the setting where that’s demonstrated to not be true. There are also plenty of places where it is. Men and women are generally equal in Thedas, certainly far more than they were in our own

historical medieval period, and the idea of femininity in Thedas covers far more aspects than simply nurturing (spirituality, for instance).

 

As I said, however, this does not mean sexism doesn’t exist. If you feel it shouldn’t, or don’t want it in a game you’re playing, that’s fine. There are a number of elements in the story and the setting which people aren’t okay with, and they’re not meant to be, and neither are you able to address those issues in all cases if that’s not what the story calls for. If, however, someone is conversely suggesting that Thedas is full of misogyny and rape… well, I don’t think that’s quite true, either. It simply isn’t.

 

Either way, I’m not suggesting this is a conversation that isn’t useful to have. It’s certainly something worth thinking about, and I think there are without question some questionable aspects that get included without thinking them through fully. I’ll certainly appreciate the conversation regarding what Inquisition did well and what it did poorly when it comes out.

 

So, do you think Dragon Age should portray sexism? Do you think it goes over the top when depicting sexism? What are you hoping for when you get your hands on Inquisition?

[Muspade]

I respectivefully could care less. I'd rather focus on my own world than one of make believe.

[puppyofwar]

Personally, I think DA is a setting with sexist people, not an inherently sexist setting ala ASOIAF (not that itself is a bad thing )

 

Edit: Oh, while we're at it, DA have racism, religious bigotry, cast system, nobles treating common folks like dirt and the giant can of worms that is the Mage problem, just about every type of prejudice in existence. I found it odd that people chose to accuse DA being "sexist"---which is probably the only thing it feature the least.

[leaguer of one]

*Sign

 

It like these people don't get stories like this is to show what reality is and not a glorified version of it.

 

And Dwarves let their woman fight and have power. And It just one character that shocked your a fighting woman.

[grombie]

I'm sorry but it's incredibly easy to... misinterpret the title of this thread even with the provided context. I know I don't frequent the twitter thread, so I thought this thread was about something else, lol. It might be prudent for you to change it to something that relates to the premise of this thread, rather than the uh, interesting name of that particular tumblr?

 

I agree with David Gaider's post. I'm also glad that Thedas isn't some fanciful utopia, it makes the hardships and realities of our characters more immersive and relatable to the real world. It also makes the narrative a lot more interesting.

[Fredward]

Should games be a medium for escapism or aim to tell an interesting story? I dunno. That's for the devs to decide. For me personally things become a little iffy when people start saying they want certain themes excluded from forms of media because it makes them uncomfortable. It's about how it's communicated yah know? OSC (I've never read this guy's stuff just as a disclaimer) apparently consistently portrays his homosexual characters as evil/perverted which is a problem since it enforces harmful stereotypes, the world may or may not endorse it but the characters are still stained by the authors bias. Contrast this with the world of Ice and Fire where homophobia seems to be a thing yet none of the homosexuals are portrayed as inherently bad, they're just people. Is Martin wrong for simply creating a world in which it is a thing? Or, as an author, is it his prerogative to craft a world in which unpleasant issues are present?

 

Just as an aside there is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE differences between crafting a world with representations like sexism and homophobia and being either one of those yourself just yah know, so we're clear on that.

[Rane7685]

Anyone know how to change the topic title?

[Fredward]

Anyone know how to change the topic title?

 

Just edit your OP, the option should be there. I vote for keeping it though, this is almost definitely more exciting than anything else you could come up with.

[syllogi]

Came for a discussion of Vivienne's sexuality and/or her hat.

This is not as advertised.

[nici2412]

I don't get it. Dragon Age is highly inspired by the european middle ages in many areas. But they took most of the parts out, which may offend some people. There is no racism between humans, there is no homophobia, there is barely any sexism, there is no potrayal of supreriority of men (  the two most powerful persons in thedas- the divine and empress of orlais being women). It's basically one of the most politically correct versions of a fantasy world which is trying to be realistic and there are still people complaining that its no politically correct enough. i have the feeling these people just want another tolkien fantasy, in which there is a clear good and bad distinction without any social issues. But in this case there are enough other games or fantasy universes, which exactly deliver this.

[puppyofwar]

I don't get it. Dragon Age is highly inspired by the european middle ages in many areas. But they took most of the parts out, which may offend some people. There is no racism between humans, there is no homophobia, there is barely any sexism, there is no potrayal of supreriority of men (  the two most powerful persons in thedas- the divine and empress of orlais being women). It's basically one of the most politically correct versions of a fantasy world which is trying to be realistic and there are still people complaining that its no politically correct enough. i have the feeling these people just want another tolkien fantasy, in which there is a clear good and bad distinction without any social issues. But in this case there are enough other games or fantasy universes, which exactly deliver this.

Don't forget Tolkien been accused as sexist for its lack of female character too.  Despite his work is more akin to traditional epic like the Iliad or the Poetic Edda.

[Tenebrae]

I thought this was a discussion of Vivienne's fabulous hat.

 

Very disappointed.

[Radan]

It's just a game.

 

Nuff said.

 

 

 

I have nothing more to add because the OP said pretty much everything.

[leaguer of one]

It's just a game.

 

Nuff said.

Try again. Their story and meaning to these games and it's very lazy to just pass them off line that. Their is a far better response to use then that.

[Tymvir]

I got 2 warning points for discussing gender issues from a male perspective, I hope they don't make exceptions to their rules just because women complain.

[Tevinter Soldier]

It's just a game.

 

Nuff said.

 

Exactly? why cant politics be left to the real world?

[leaguer of one]

I got 2 warning points for discussing gender issues from a male perspective, I hope they don't make exceptions to their rules just because women complain.

Dude, you got those points for pressing a needless issue about not having enough romance options and whining that woman got 2 more options that a race gated. Get over it.

[Tymvir]

Dude, you got those points for pressing a needless issue about not having enough romance options and whining that woman got 2 more options that a race gated. Get over it.

 

Nope, not at all about that. But I'll not risk the wrath of the moderaters so I'll leave it at that.

[leaguer of one]

Nope, not at all about that. But I'll not risk the wrath of the moderaters so I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, the "straight male gamer issue".

[Tenebrae]

Dude, you got those points for pressing a needless issue about not having enough romance options and whining that woman got 2 more options that a race gated. Get over it.

 

Stop being obtuse, do you really think had the situation been reversed that people pressing the issue of straight males (elves or otherwise) having more options would have received a warning? Let alone two? I highly doubt it.

[Grieving Natashina]

Oh this is already off to a great start. 

[leaguer of one]

Stop being obtuse, do you really think had the situation been reversed that people pressing the issue of straight males (elves or otherwise) having more options would have received warning? I highly doubt it.

That were the core of these guys issues are. You think this would of came up it there were more straight male LI's? Where were these guy supporting the issue of the straight male gamer during ME3?

[Tenebrae]

Well we could turn it into a fabulous hat discussion, that might cool things off.