296 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellaine]

I don't live in a world where young children are often possessed by demons, or where elves are regularly shunned, or Dwarves struggle to be seen as real dwarves by their kin. I do live in a patriarchy beset with sexism. 

 

That's your first difference.

This is basically what I came in to say.  I'l probably never meet a demon in real life, or deal with dwarves learning to live on the surface.  I have, as many many many other women have, had to deal with rape and sexism in the real world.  The city elf origin, for a female, was a little jarring.  That being said, I wouldn't advocate for it to be changed or removed from the game, but it IS a sexist bit of story in a game that I think is generally not a sexist game. 

There is a bit of inconsistency, in the first game especially, with being told that men and women are 'generally' equal in Thedas, but at the same time being shown something a bit different.  I think they could have clarified that all a bit better and I bet/hope they probably have in Inquisition.  It is weird to read that codex about equality but then constantly be called or call women the 'b' word, have people talk about how oh! you're a woman warden (although thank you Bioware, for giving us women warden some good snarky replies to that ), etc. 

There are some bits of sexism.  I think it's okay to love and adore a piece of media and still recognize it has some flaws.  And above that, I think the amazing thing about Bioware is that they are willing and open to having discussions ABOUT those flaws, like...  they are ever-evolving and they are taking a major part in the discussion, it's a cool thing.

[Grieving Natashina]

This is basically what I came in to say.  I'l probably never meet a demon in real life, or deal with dwarves learning to live on the surface.  I have, as many many many other women have, had to deal with rape and sexism in the real world.  The city elf origin, for a female, was a little jarring.  That being said, I wouldn't advocate for it to be changed or removed from the game, but it IS a sexist bit of story in a game that I think is generally not a sexist game. 

There is a bit of inconsistency, in the first game especially, with being told that men and women are 'generally' equal in Thedas, but at the same time being shown something a bit different.  I think they could have clarified that all a bit better and I bet/hope they probably have in Inquisition.  It is weird to read that codex about equality but then constantly be called or call women the 'b' word, have people talk about how oh! you're a woman warden (although thank you Bioware, for giving us women warden some good snarky replies to that ), etc. 

There are some bits of sexism.  I think it's okay to love and adore a piece of media and still recognize it has some flaws.  And above that, I think the amazing thing about Bioware is that they are willing and open to having discussions ABOUT those flaws, like...  they are ever-evolving and they are taking a major part in the discussion, it's a cool thing.

Thank you, you said everything I was thinking about this subject.   I have no likes left, so here you go:

 

[phantomrachie]

DA:O's was inconsistent in how sexist it was showing the world to be, and that was I think a problem.  Often it felt like sexist attitudes were being included thoughtlessly without particular thought, and this to me seems worse than if you're consciously depicting a sexist society.

 

The big example for me is Redcliffe, where it's totally taken for granted that the women should all hide away safely, while it's a man's duty to go out and fight, even if you're a fat coward like Lloyd.  In a world where there are many female warriors, I think that's problematic.

 

(I speculate that Bioware took some time to get a handle on how they wanted the world to work with regards to gender relations.  In the prelude, it seems like the chantry priests etc were written as male)

 

DA2 on the other hand was more consistent in depicting a society that wasn't sexist, except for few pervy guys who probably didn't need to be there.  And Isabela seemed to feel the world was pretty sexist in some of her dialogue

 

I agree, in DA:O there seemed to be a disconnect between what we experienced in game and with what the lore was telling us.

 

There are two possible explanations for this

 

The disconnect is due to biases the writers were unaware they had,

They wanted to write a society were man & women were pretty much equal but 30-40 years of men always being the warriors and women being protected kicked in sometimes and led to them writing things like Redcliffe without thinking, which created a disconnect.

 

Thedas is not perfect

 Thedas is not perfect and so it is bound to have grey areas or areas were people practice cognitive dissonance. They know that women can fight, so if a women wanted to be a warrior then that's fine BUT the expectation is that once she has children that her job is to look after them.

[Ianamus]

It means we should be critical of the way these things are depicted, not that they are depicted at all.

 

That's the primary argument.

 

But I've not seen any convincing argument about the way sexism is depicted in Dragon Age. If anything the complaints I've seen, that Isabela is called a few names and one or two people make remarks to the Warden about her gender, come across as hypercritical since they are so trivial.

 

The argument about rape and abuse is the only one that held any weight in my opinion, but DA2 had equal cases of males being physically and sexually abused, so it seems less a depiction of sexism and more a depiction of rape and abuse in general. And considering it had so much focus and was such a large part of Fenris' character, I feel that it was handled with the depth and respect that it deserves.

[catabuca]

This article might be of interest to some people here:

 

http://www.themarysu...-talk-to-women/

 

 

The Hey Sweetheart Scenario is one that plays out with female protagonists, and it pops up all over the place. It’s usually very subtle, presenting itself as a bit of throw-away dialogue separate from the main plot. The Hey Sweetheart Scenario has many incarnations, the most common of which are as follows:

 

1. An NPC warns you that a life as a warrior/soldier/adventurer is even harder if you’re a woman.

2. An NPC expresses surprise that the hero that was sent to help him is a woman.

3. An NPC assumes that you are a stripper/concubine/cheap date, even though you are armed more heavily than an entire SWAT team.

4. An NPC actually calls you “sweetheart.”

Following this bit of dialogue, the Hey Sweetheart Scenario typically gives you the option to contradict the NPC, often by causing verbal or physical harm to the speaker. You will almost definitely have the chance to prove them wrong in some way. The underlying message of the Hey Sweetheart Scenario is that your heroine is such a badass that even those silly boys can’t get in her way.

I hate the Hey Sweetheart Scenario.

Purely from a storytelling standpoint, these interactions don’t make much narrative sense, especially if the game in question has fully embraced gender customization. I’m talking about games that give you a sense of equal opportunity right from the character creation screen, games with mixed-gender militaries, folk heroes of either gender, armor that fits properly, the whole nine yards. If this is the social norm of the world you’re jumping into, why, then, would anyone be surprised to see yet another woman strolling up in soldier’s garb? And if we’re in a world in which this norm is well established, why would any NPCs have contrary assumptions about what roles a woman can or should fill?

 

It goes on to say:

 

 

 

The counter argument, of course, is one of lore. Game settings are places of fantasy, and writers have the right to create whatever cultural norms they want. Conflict is what makes a story interesting, and if you’re creating a whole universe, naturally you want as much diversity and nuance as possible. Even gender prejudices, if written well, can be an interesting part of the story — but only if they exist with an actual point.

 

It follows this up with two examples, both from DA:O. One of them gets it right. One of them doesn't.

 

The whole article is worth reading. It might give some posters a bit of context as to why I (I can't speak for others) am critical of the way certain invocations of sexism are handled in this game and others. As I said in an earlier post, it isn't that sexism and sexist situations are included, but the way that they are handled. The example the person quoted in the OP gives, where the Dwarven noble says "and I'm a woman" is particularly jarring (I just played that scene yesterday and had the wind knocked out of me -- I'd forgotten that DAO could be quite so... awkward in its depictions of this kind of thing, it's been a while since I've played it).

 

We can have a legitimate discussion about whether certain settings should have sexism or racism in them at all. But beyond that, even when we agree that they can have those things in them, that doesn't mean we abandon all responsibility as to how it is depicted. 

 

And as to the poster wishing that politics could just be left to the 'real' world: every work of cultural production is political. If you personally see no politics in something, it means that you personally agree with the politics that product espouses. Everything is political, whether you like it or not. You might not have a stake in the way X is portrayed, other people do. There's little point denying politics exist in these things, because you'll be perpetually wrong.

[pdusen]

This nonsense between David Gaider and other tumblrers always reminds me of what Louis CK said here (at 5:08) http://thedailyshow....er11/louis-c-k-

[Sideria]

I'd love to see a sci-fi universe where homosexuals are the dominant social class and heterosexual's are seen more as cattle/slaves

http://en.wikipedia....The_Forever_War

[andar91]

I'm going to make a post, but I'm going to make only one post and try to cover everything, or at least the major points, because I don't want to be drawn into a long argument. I'll try to address the points that commonly come up. I will use the term oppressive to refer to things like sexism, homophobia, racism, ableism, and the like.

 

Oppressive Setting vs. Oppressive Story

For me, there's a difference between an oppressive setting and an oppressive story. I don’t think it’s really debatable whether oppression is right or wrong - it’s wrong. But oppression can exist within a world and work in a progressive way because it gives the narrative and/or characters a way to actually deal with it or work against it. The problem is when we get oppressive stories, in my opinion. Thedas may have sexism, but it also has many, many female characters who are interesting, important, have different personalities and sexualities and allegiances, who are not universally sexualized or objectified or damseled…. In short, they’re whole people. I can except a homophobic world - I cannot accept a story that has absolutely no queer characters in it at all.

 

But this is just a game!

Games are cultural artifacts just like art and music and books and movies. This is great news for games - they’re a powerful, awesome medium that can do a lot of things, and that’s why they’re under scrutiny (again, just like art and music and books and movies). We don’t get to have our cake and eat it too, to paraphrase David Gaider. We can’t reap the benefits of gaming’s elevated status (i.e. discussions of whether games are art, less stigma against gaming, and so forth) while also saying they’re “just games”.

 

Also, the media we consume both reflects and keeps alive certain cultural attitudes like sexism. I am not saying that viewing sexist media instantly turns somebody sexist. I’m saying it reflects sexist attitudes, teaches it subconsciously to people, and makes it seem normal (not necessarily okay, but normal). It does nothing to dismantle the problem. And this gets repeated over and over with different media / experiences.

 

It’s also worth noting that, when you’re actually part of any of these groups, the bad representations (or total lack of representation) is really apparent, and it really hurts. People seem to think it’s just a minor annoyance, but it’s not - it’s like the background radiation surrounding an entire identity.

 

What the heck do you expect a game to do about a big issue like sexism or racism?

To be clear, I do not think that making a progressive game(s) will instantly destroy a social problem. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and it wasn’t torn down in one either. But we have to start somewhere. Having more progressive / inclusive media will help to get people talking and provide clearer pictures of the problems and their alternatives (a girl playing DA2 might be inspired by Aveline because she wanted to go into law enforcement but had never seen a prominent female police officer). Inclusive media is also just plain...nicer. Women, people of color, queer people, disabled people, poor people...we ARE in the audience, and we appreciate being part of the picture. We already buy/consume problematic stuff because we enjoy bits of it, but it doesn’t mean the problems aren’t a huge punch in the gut.

 

You’re just attacking white/straight/cis/men/etc…!

No, we aren’t. Any frustration and anger I feel towards any of these groups (and I think I speak for at least some other people) is simply because they have tons of unfair advantages over others for no good reasons. It seems cliche to say it, but, as a gay dude, I have had plenty of straight friends and family members that I love dearly. I have no issue with straightness, only with the system that favors it over queerness. And if I ever get mad at privileged people, it’s probably because they aren’t always so great about recognizing their privilege or are hand-waving away issues because they don’t directly affect them. I also understand that privilege does not automatically guarantee an easy life...but as a group, they’re just not having to deal with a lot of crap that other groups do.

 

No privileged person needs to feel guilty about their privilege. Nobody gets a choice in their privilege; you don’t choose to be white anymore than you choose to be latino. We just want to make things better, so please join us in trying to help wherever you are able.

 

So I should feel guilty for finding women hot and enjoying seeing them without clothes?

No, there’s nothing wrong with being attracted to or titillated by women or men in any way. That’s not the problem. The problem is that your attraction should not cost somebody their entire humanity or personhood. Female characters do not or should not (at least universally) exist primarily as objects used for sexual enjoyment. They can be sexual and appealing and still be other things at the same time. There’s also issues of a very narrow definition of what is sexy and appealing in terms of personality and body type. We can have media where a woman is dressed in sexy lingerie and where another woman is dressed in (actual reasonable) armor. In that same game, the lady in lingerie can also choose to put on kevlar; the armored lady might like to get hot and heavy with somebody and put on some lingerie. It’s a question of context, consent, and respect.

 

So we can’t ever have a game with a male/straight/able-bodies/white protagonist?

Of course we can have those protagonists. We aren’t trying to drive anyone underground. It’s perfectly reasonable that games will have, for instance, male protagonists...but the vast majority of them? Roughly 50 percent of people on the planet are women, so the imbalance seems a little ridiculous to say the least. We aren’t trying to bring anybody down, just raise other people up.

 

But it’s more realistic!

Not really. And we largely define what is realistic in this sense. A male protagonist is only more realistic because we believe male protagonists are more realistic. And as for including things like rape and violence...I’m not going to say we can’t have these things in media. I will say that if we casually throw them in as set dressing, we aren’t being very sensitive about a topic that is extremely real, extremely important, and extremely harmful to people in the real world. These things require respect, but they’re generally used as a plot point to set off some sort of power fantasy. In short, they’re not really about the victim of violence. They’re just a prop in the story.

 

But we, the cis/male/white/straight/able-bodied people will be losing something!

Well, yes. You will be losing your exclusive right to the majority, to all of the media, to all of the power, to all of the air and space in the room. You will have to make room for others, basically. But it’s not like you all are on a crowded bus and suddenly other people are getting on and you’re being shoved out the windows. It’s more like the bus is freaking huge and you have been sitting with your legs spread out wide, some people laying down, and now everybody has to sit up straight and give everybody the same share of the space.

 

I’ll use another metaphor. Instead of having all of the cookies, you will now be asked to share with others. Everybody still absolutely gets a cookie, but you don’t get as many because you don’t need them. And, especially at first, you might be asked to give more cookies to others, but only because they haven’t had any cookies for a very long time and are very hungry, whereas you have had cookies forever. And that’s not necessarily your fault - the system is what gives out the cookies. Let’s share cookies and fight the system.

 

What about Dragon Age?

For the most part, I think DA gets more right than it gets wrong, but it’s not without its issues. I think they seem to have shifted...Origins seemed more sexist and then they’ve gotten less and less so as they’ve gone on. Which is probably good. I think it would have been really interesting to hear Aveline talk about how difficult it was to be a woman in the army, for instance (if that was true), but still. Overall, they present a wide and varied picture of ladies that are different from each other and have agency.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Hey, does anyone else smell something burning around here? 

[Ianamus]

-snip-

 

The article is interesting.

 

It's important to remember that in reality men do have quite a significant physical advantage over women though. To be incredibly honest if I saw a woman running past me in proper plate armour at a convention or something I would be more surprised and impressed than if it were a man, because it is more unusual for a woman to have the strength to do it than a man due to the innate physical disadvantage.

 

I don't really think that's sexist, it's just biology. Female soldiers still aren't allowed to fight on the front line, after all, and even when it is eventually brought in much fewer women will be able to pass the physical criteria than men.

 

Admittedly this is only relevant with the soldier/fighter hero archetype, with others the physical differences probably wouldn't matter as much.

[Hellaine]

This nonsense between David Gaider and other tumblrers always reminds me of what Louis CK said here (at 5:08) http://thedailyshow....er11/louis-c-k-

I think it's a little condescending to call it nonsense though.  I mean, you can agree or not agree with one side or the other, say it's a 'first world problem' (really?  sexism is a first world problem..?), say to 'focus on real issue' (sexism and rape culture are unfortunately a very 'real issue' for a large group of the population'), etc.  But those are all sort of passive aggressive ways to belittle the people that this actually means something to.  And just because it doesn't mean something to (general) you, doesn't mean it also doesn't to someone else.  Just saying, some posters could be a little more empathetic in the words they use.

[phantomrachie]

http://en.wikipedia....The_Forever_War

 

Off Topic - this is such a BRILLIANT book. If you are into scifi at all, it is a great read. It is such a different take on warfare & space travel. Even if you are not into scifi, the author is making very interesting cultural commentaries on how cultures evolve & on the nature of war.

 

This article might be of interest to some people here:

 

http://www.themarysu...-talk-to-women/

 

 

It goes on to say:

 

 

It follows this up with two examples, both from DA:O. One of them gets it right. One of them doesn't.

 

The whole article is worth reading. It might give some posters a bit of context as to why I (I can't speak for others) am critical of the way certain invocations of sexism are handled in this game and others. As I said in an earlier post, it isn't that sexism and sexist situations are included, but the way that they are handled. The example the person quoted in the OP gives, where the Dwarven noble says "and I'm a woman" is particularly jarring (I just played that scene yesterday and had the wind knocked out of me -- I'd forgotten that DAO could be quite so... awkward in its depictions of this kind of thing, it's been a while since I've played it).

 

We can have a legitimate discussion about whether certain settings should have sexism or racism in them at all. But beyond that, even when we agree that they can have those things in them, that doesn't mean we abandon all responsibility as to how it is depicted. 

 

And as to the poster wishing that politics could just be left to the 'real' world: every work of cultural production is political. If you personally see no politics in something, it means that you personally agree with the politics that product espouses. Everything is political, whether you like it or not. You might not have a stake in the way X is portrayed, other people do. There's little point denying politics exist in these things, because you'll be perpetually wrong.

 

This is a great point, it is all about the way sexism is portrayed.

 

To reference the blog,Qunari culture is all about roles and so they would be shocked or confused by seeing a person act outside of what they consider to be their inherent role. Ferelden on the other hand, isn't like this so it is more jarring when Fereldens say things like 'oh look its a woman who is a warrior'

[Lennard Testarossa]

It's important to remember that in reality men do have quite a significant physical advantage over women though. To be incredibly honest if I saw a woman running past me in proper plate armour at a convention or something I would be more surprised and impressed than if it were a man, because it is more unusual for a woman to have the strength to do it than a man due to the innate physical disadvantage.

 

While your general point is correct, 'running in plate armor' is a somewhat poor example, since that is something that any reasonably fit individual should be able to do.

[MissOuJ]

For example, Feminist Frequency once described the scene from DAO where the CE wedding gets disrupted by the humans who are stealing the women so they can rape them as sexist. And the humans in the scene arguably were (though they may just have been racist). But some people would claim that such scenes shouldn't exist.

And when playing a male CE, the scene (and subsequent action) is a bit weird. Your women get stolen, and you have to go rescue them. It's a sterstereotypically sexist plot.

But when playing a female CE, it's you who gets abducted. It's you who is due to be raped. And you get to pick up a sword and wreak your terrible vengeance as you rescue yourself. It's a Quentin Tarantino moment, and it's awesome. Now it's a plot that contains sexism, but it is not itself sexist.

 

You know what I call that?

 

One of my worst nightmares.

 

(And one I've been told to avoid at all cost, and if I can't I have to "prove my innocense" because if I can't it's my fault because I didn't do all the Rape Prevention ™ things I was supposed to.)

 

The thing is (and the thing hornyvivienne makes in her post) this is a fear and a possibility I have to face regularly - if not every day or week, then at least once a month. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of men who fish their keys out early so they won't have to spend extra time looking for them if the worst happends, nor do their mothers/fathers habitually ask them "So... what you're wearing?" when they hear they're going out with their friends. In my life, the threat of rape is constant, one way or another - even if I forget about it for a day or a week, it always comes back, one way or another. Because I'm a woman. Which makes the use of rape a very genderspecific trope, and unfortunately it is nowadays used very flippantly in the media (not only in games, but in books and movies and tv) as a shorthand for GrimDarkSetting. It seems that no matter how many unique fantasy worlds we produce, they all have one thing in common, an that's sexual violence against women.

 

And, as a woman, I feel exhausted by it.

 

I feel like this is also the problem I have with Gaider's post - the flippancy. He's responding to a confession blog of a fan community, and his tone reads to me like "Well, ain't that cute? You thought you'd get a world without misogyny? Think again, ladies!" despite the fact that when you start a game the CC tells you that women and men are generally equal in Thedas. His dismissive tone is (I assume) not intentional, but it still stings. His second post is a bit better, but I still have a problem with the way he grabs onto the "generally" - like making a world with zero misogyny would somehow, I don't know... invalidate the story? Make Thedas more utopian? I don't even know. Also, most of the insults and microaggressions don't make sense. Like using b***h in general (since Fereldans love dogs), or using it to describe assertive women, which really doesn't commute culturally IMO, if women are in any way equal to men.

 

But these are the easiest insults to use on women, and the ones we often default to without even realising it. I consider myself a feminist and I sometimes slip and use them on occasion (to my great shame), but that doesn't make them any more acceptable - if anything, it should make us more cautious and wary of them. Why do we default on them in particular? Why are they so easy to use?

 

And: why in media the plots women get usually center around rape or pregnancy and childbirth (or, in worst cases, both at the same time)?

[Tymvir]

If even Bioware and David Gaider aren't progressive enough for you, then it seems you're just looking for something to complain about to validate your victim status.

[Ianamus]

The thing is (and the thing hornyvivienne makes in her post) this is a fear and a possibility I have to face regularly - if not every day or week, then at least once a month. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of men who fish their keys out early so they won't have to spend extra time looking for them if the worst happends, nor do their mothers/fathers habitually ask them "So... what you're wearing?" when they hear they're going out with their friends. In my life, the threat of rape is constant, one way or another - even if I forget about it for a day or a week, it always comes back, one way or another. Because I'm a woman. Which makes the use of rape a very genderspecific trope, and unfortunately it is nowadays used very flippantly in the media (not only in games, but in books and movies and tv) as a shorthand for GrimDarkSetting. It seems that no matter how many unique fantasy worlds we produce, they all have one thing in common, an that's sexual violence against women.

 

And, as a woman, I feel exhausted by it.

 

I don't understand the argument "It's something that is incredibly prevalent in real life to the extent that every single woman on the planet has to face it... therefore it shouldn't be used in media so much". Doesn't how common it is in real life explain why it's used so frequently in media?

 

I do think rape stories are overused, particuarly in video games, but if what people are saying about real life statistics and experiences are true then if anything it's being under-represented in media.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I find Hornyvivienne's statements extremely ignorant, sexist and offensive.

 

"I don’t need to play a game and be reminded how much men actually hate women"

 

Wow...Wow.

 

 

I really don't understand how can these people call themselves feminists when they say such ignorant, hateful statements about men.

She states only women get hurtful messages/threats on the internet, only women experience sexism in daily lives etc.

 

I'll stray away from vivienne's behavior (so sassy) and move on to my opinion on all this is:

 

I agree that universes with social injustices can be interesting, and Dragon Age ceirtanly is.Though I wonder why we never see universes where:

-Women are the superior gender.

-White people are the submissive race.

-Homosexuality is considered high, noble and a rare blessing 

 

etc.

 

Copies of real life injustices that are in the current society or in the past are getting repetetive.I want something new.

 

Because of community standards and character driven plots.

 

basically someone in weakened position can and will do things to a person in a position of greater power which is either violent or at least aggressive. 

but society would not understand the altered concept.

 

for example in this reversed role scenario, would you find it acceptable for the male from a weaker position bitchslap the woman in the higher position. or you'd you simply see a man belting a woman?

 

likewise if this was a reversed role universe and Django was white and the bad guys were black, would the film have the same impact or would people take it as so neo nazi race hate flick?

 

Overall the writer is as trapped in our reality as anyone else if you reverse the roles you limit character growth because no matter how much you reverse the role if a man was to slap a woman without possessing a white beard and Scottish accent people would be outraged, even if it makes sense in context.

 

likewise the race reversal.

 

as for your last comparison, you've seen the **** Bioware has cop't over having homosexual content let alone declaring it superior right? the yanks just might invade canada if they tried that. its disturbing to watch american news when sexuality is brought up. 

[Xilizhra]

The argument about rape and abuse is the only one that held any weight in my opinion, but DA2 had equal cases of males being physically and sexually abused, so it seems less a depiction of sexism and more a depiction of rape and abuse in general. And considering it had so much focus and was such a large part of Fenris' character, I feel that it was handled with the depth and respect that it deserves.

I disagree, because raping women is actually a fundamental setting element when it comes to darkspawn reproduction.

[phantomrachie]

If even Bioware and David Gaider aren't progressive enough for you, then maybe you're just looking for something to complain about and to validate your victim status.

 

that is a flippant and poorly thought out argument. BioWare & David Gaider are indeed very progressive but they are not perfect.

 

BioWare is populated by people and everyone has inherent biases, some of which they are not even aware of, they are also a company which may have to limit how progressive it wants to be for external reasons.

 

There is nothing wrong with congratulating a company that is working to be more inclusive while still pointing out areas were they are lacking.

[Neon Rising Winter]

If even Bioware and David Gaider aren't progressive enough for you, then maybe you're just looking for something to complain about to validate your victim status.

Or it could be the case that they're making progress, but it does no good to hand out false pats on the head to people who are trying to make progress and tell them how brilliant they are when in fact they've still got a long way to go. What you say is, okay, good start, but here's where I still see problems and here's what I think needs doing to address them.

 

You know how you can tell when people are seriously trying? They don't give a sulky huff and whinge about how unfair it is when that happens, they don't stomp off to their room and refuse to engage, they have a think about it and decide if they agree with you or not. That's where Bioware get a lot of credit from me. They're engaged in the process of improving - try, fail, try again, fail better.

[pdusen]

I think it's a little condescending to call it nonsense though.  I mean, you can agree or not agree with one side or the other, say it's a 'first world problem' (really?  sexism is a first world problem..?), say to 'focus on real issue' (sexism and rape culture are unfortunately a very 'real issue' for a large group of the population'), etc.  But those are all sort of passive aggressive ways to belittle the people that this actually means something to.  And just because it doesn't mean something to (general) you, doesn't mean it also doesn't to someone else.  Just saying, some posters could be a little more empathetic in the words they use.

 

Don't get me wrong; the topic is an important one and a reasoned discussion about it can be very valuable.

 

The discussion between David Gaider and the Tumblrers, however, is utter nonsense.

[MissOuJ]

I don't understand the argument "It's something that is incredibly prevalent in real life to the extent that every single woman on the planet has to face it... therefore it shouldn't be used in media so much". Doesn't how common it is in real life explain why it's used so frequently in media?

 

I do think rape stories are overused, particuarly in video games, but if what people are saying about real life statistics and experiences are true then if anything it's being under-represented in media.

 

The problem is that they're not discussed or used in a respectful manner - they're normalised. Like I said, they're usually lazy shorthand for "look how Dark and Edgy ™ our world is!" and not in the way that respects the subject matter at all. It becomes background decoration.

 

Another reason it's problematic (particularly in a fantasy setting) is that sometimes we all need escapism, and sci-fi and fantasy in particular are the two most common escapist genres. But in this regard women seem to never get a break.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I disagree, because raping women is actually a fundamental setting element when it comes to darkspawn reproduction.

 

I'm not quite sure how the method of reproduction of the unambiguous monsters of the series fit here. The Darkspawn kill everything they can, and the women are raped and turning into broodmothers because it's what they do. Darkspawn don't even think about sexism or whatever, the logic is, if women can give birth to dwarves, humans et all, they can be modfied to give birth to us. It's monstruous of course, but they are monsters. It's just being sorta pragamatic about it.

[Darth Death]

"...But men don't actually experience sexism in everyday life."

 

 

User's Status: Credibility Lost.

Men's Approval: -100000000000000000000000000000000

New York Times: "Monstrously disgusting"