296 réponses à ce sujet

[Mathias]

 

But we, the cis/male/white/straight/able-bodied people will be losing something!

Well, yes. You will be losing your exclusive right to the majority, to all of the media, to all of the power, to all of the air and space in the room. You will have to make room for others, basically. But it’s not like you all are on a crowded bus and suddenly other people are getting on and you’re being shoved out the windows. It’s more like the bus is freaking huge and you have been sitting with your legs spread out wide, some people laying down, and now everybody has to sit up straight and give everybody the same share of the space.

 

I’ll use another metaphor. Instead of having all of the cookies, you will now be asked to share with others. Everybody still absolutely gets a cookie, but you don’t get as many because you don’t need them. And, especially at first, you might be asked to give more cookies to others, but only because they haven’t had any cookies for a very long time and are very hungry, whereas you have had cookies forever. And that’s not necessarily your fault - the system is what gives out the cookies. Let’s share cookies and fight the system.

 

 

Then how about the "others" make it themselves? What is the Big Bad White Man stopping them from getting together the funds and manpower to create something that caters to them?

 

You know what I support? I support Artistic Freedom. I support an artist's right to create whatever he or she damn well pleases. I didn't like Gone Home. I thought it was an overrated game that only got widespread praise from critics because of how "progressive" it tried to be. And that's just my opinion, but you know what, I support the devs right to make a game like that. Just because it doesn't interest me doesn't mean I have to hassle them to try and create something I'd be interested in.

 

This goes for all developers. If some guy wants to make a game where you play a hot scantily clad woman in armor, killing enemies in violent ways, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it. These people don't realize they're doing more damage than good. It's a witch hunt. There are games out there that cater to everyone. It's more diverse than it ever was. But this type of behavior from social justice extremists needs to stop. Gamers have really been showing this year that they're so fed up with it.

[Ibn_Shisha]

I have to say I really don't see DA or ME being sexist.  Are there characters within both universes that are sexist?  Of course.  Does that make the game or the writing itself sexist?  I really don't think so.  Just taking Thedas as an example, 2 of the most powerful NPCs in the setting are female, being the Divine and Celene.  The Qunari Triumvirate as well, one is always male, one is always female, and the 3rd can be either (I don't know if it's ever been stated in universe which the current Ariqun is?).

 

Sure there can be disconnects like in Redcliffe, but disconnects are always possible when there are multiple cooks in the kitchen.

 

Additionally, one thing that's always bothered me is the 'these things are bad and shouldn't be portrayed in the media' argument.  Certainly portraying bad things in positive light is something that should be handled with extreme care, if at all, but not acknowledging that these things exist is tantamount to ignoring them, which I would think only compounds the problem.  Portraying things like sexism, racism and classism in the way Bioware does feels more to me as a means to raise awareness and present them as something that needs to be addressed and overcome.

 

Can fantasy exist (and be entertaining!) in a setting with little to no *isms?  Absolutely.  Eddings' work (which was essentially co-written by his wife even before she got her name on the covers) doesn't have much in the way of women fighting in a physical, soldiery sense (about the closest we get is Velvet in B/M and Mirtai in E/T), but we have women in many positions of power and reverence, and their characters in many chapters having equal if not greater input and influence.  Wheel of Time goes even farther.

 

Does this invalidate fantasy like ASOIAF?  No - the Westeros setting is a dark, mostly low fantasy based on periods of our own medieval history when issues like sexism and classism were part of the defining cultural order of the day.  I don't see GRRM's work as glorifying or condoning such behavior, I see it as a statement of 'this is what life was like - it was horrible and it really shouldn't be like this and that's why many of the characters fight it'.  Even one of the major 'villains' gains a lot humanization and sympathy when her motives and mindset are explored in the terms of struggling against the inherent sexism and gender roles of the setting.

[catabuca]

I'm not quite sure how the method of reproduction of the unambiguous monsters of the series fit here. The Darkspawn kill everything they can, and the women are raped and turning into broodmothers because it's what they do. Darkspawn don't even think about sexism or whatever, the logic is, if women can give birth to dwarves, humans et all, they can be modfied to give birth to us. It's monstruous of course, but they are monsters. It's just being sorta pragamatic about it.

 

Darkspawn reproduction isn't something that is concrete, set in stone outside of the realm of fiction. It was created by a person, a writer, and it could have been substituted for absolutely anything else that could have been written with its own lore structures around it. They could have written lore about how th people who are dragged down into the ground after a darkspawn attack are cocooned in some sort of blight material that slowly transforms them, horribly and painfully, into darkspawn. They could have made it a function of the archdemon, whereby once a blight begins the archdemon starts some kind of process that exponentially increases darkspawn numbers, hence why there are so many of them during a blight and not so many during other times. There are no concrete restrictions on what they could have written. All Dragon Age lore was created from nothing. To say "women are raped and turned into broodmothers because that's what happens" misses the point wholesale. 

 

I note that I am not suggesting that either of my two examples of alternative darkspawn reproduction would have been narratively more cohesive nor that they would even make sense from a lore standpoint. I used them in order to highlight the point that lore is created from nothing, and there is nothing inherent to a broodmother's existence, and it could have been anything that the writers wanted it to be.

[Mathias]

Bioware actively tries their best to be as LGBT friendly as they can with the content. 

 

 

If Bioware of all developers get criticized by people for being sexist, then what hope do other developers have? It goes to show you can't make everyone happy, and that the only thing you as a developer should be worried about is making the best game possible. Social issues should take a backseat.

[Darth Death]

 

If Bioware of all developers get criticized by people for being sexist, then what hope do other developers have? It goes to show you can't make everyone happy, and that the only thing you as a developer should be worried about is making the best game possible. Social issues should take a backseat.

They want power over everything in a nutshell. That's why it's best to ignore them. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Bioware actively tries their best to be as LGBT friendly as they can with the content. 

 

 

If Bioware of all developers get criticized by people for being sexist, then what hope do other developers have? It goes to show you can't make everyone happy, and that the only thing you as a developer should be worried about is making the best game possible. Social issues should take a backseat.

You're making the mistake of seeing criticism as a bad thing, what makes you think that? I've just finished a major project at work, what am I doing, ripping big chunks of what we did to shreds so when it comes around next year it will be better. Criticism is what brings improvement, it's what gives you the best game possible. If that's what you want, embrace the idea. You might disagree with the criticism itself, and that's fine, but to disagree with the act of criticism is to pretty much cut the throat of improvement.

[karushna5]

Then how about the "others" make it themselves? What is the Big Bad White Man stopping them from getting together the funds and manpower to create something that caters to them?

 

You know what I support? I support Artistic Freedom. I support an artist's right to create whatever he or she damn well pleases. I didn't like Gone Home. I thought it was an overrated game that only got widespread praise from critics because of how "progressive" it tried to be. And that's just my opinion, but you know what, I support the devs right to make a game like that. Just because it doesn't interest me doesn't mean I have to hassle them to try and create something I'd be interested in.

 

This goes for all developers. If some guy wants to make a game where you play a hot scantily clad woman in armor, killing enemies in violent ways, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it. These people don't realize they're doing more damage than good. It's a witch hunt. There are games out there that cater to everyone. It's more diverse than it ever was. But this type of behavior from social justice extremists needs to stop. Gamers have really been showing this year that they're so fed up with it.

 

I have seen this argument many times and I will say that freedom, artistic or otherwise, does not mean freedom of criticism. I feel people have put a very high bar for Bioware that at times seems ridiculously unfair and unjust to the point I feel I cannot criticize the games in a calm manner because the high standard that is so high it often seems they cannot help but fail. And they seem to be the only ones trying, and I feel to all the other companies they might just go "why should we try when even trying to go the distance they get a whole bunch of flack?

 

I say all this, but no one is hurting any ones freedom. If you wanted a world where no one could ever comment on any criticism because that is "censoring creative expression" than you lose their freedom as well. The point is, you are allowed to make a game and people are allowed to hate it or want it to be something else. And both of those are artistic freedom. One or the other may be rude or impolite, even cruel, but freedom of expression never means freedom from criticism.

[Tymvir]

They want power over everything in a nutshell. That's why it's best to ignore them. 

 

Exactly. The market decides who the primary audience is, and if white straight cis gamers are buying video games more than anyone else, then we'll probably see a lot of straight white male protagonists and things this gamer type likes. Nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't go to a fashion store and complain that the female section is 2-3 times larger than the male section and how that is sexist.

[MissOuJ]

If Bioware of all developers get criticized by people for being sexist, then what hope do other developers have? It goes to show you can't make everyone happy, and that the only thing you as a developer should be worried about is making the best game possible. Social issues should take a backseat.

 

"Not perfect" does not equal "complete rubbish and waste of time". We criticise because we care and want to make BW games (and gaming in general) more welcoming and inclusive. They're generally been really good with female characters and gender representation - we just want them to do even better.

 

And (to quote Gaider himself) a developers first priority is always to ship a game. This is common logic. But it doesn't mean that they shouldn't take these things into consideration while they're making said game. I doubt the omission of "b***h" has ever kept a game from shipping.

[Imported_beer]

I will toss this out there. 

 

Game worlds do reflect real life, because characters online deal with similar problems. I am fine with this. However, I do understand why women would feel bitter.

 

Rape, oppression, abduction, forced marriage, exploitation, harassment,  brutality, denial of opportunity are the realities of women. If not in your country, in others, and you are exposed to these. They are fair game for story telling, and that is fine, but consider other avenues of bigotry.

 

 Racism is often treated as an analogy- an elf or an alien race that is oppressed or treated unfairly. I'd be shocked if I saw a big studio title that actually showed a specific real life race being singled out for abuse and oppression.

 

Homophobia is rarely a real issue in games, in the sense that you will never have a character treated badly, or violently for being gay.  

 

So, at this point, the dominant way games portray any form of bigotry, in a way that is reflective of the world today is by sexism. There is nothing wrong with that because sexism gives you so much material to tell a world that is fascinating, and frustrating and real.  However,  I can also understand why some people may be tired of the fact.

 

Bioware has handled this quite sensitively, especially compared to other studios, so there is that.

[Xilizhra]

Then how about the "others" make it themselves? What is the Big Bad White Man stopping them from getting together the funds and manpower to create something that caters to them?

 

You know what I support? I support Artistic Freedom. I support an artist's right to create whatever he or she damn well pleases. I didn't like Gone Home. I thought it was an overrated game that only got widespread praise from critics because of how "progressive" it tried to be. And that's just my opinion, but you know what, I support the devs right to make a game like that. Just because it doesn't interest me doesn't mean I have to hassle them to try and create something I'd be interested in.

 

This goes for all developers. If some guy wants to make a game where you play a hot scantily clad woman in armor, killing enemies in violent ways, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it. These people don't realize they're doing more damage than good. It's a witch hunt. There are games out there that cater to everyone. It's more diverse than it ever was. But this type of behavior from social justice extremists needs to stop. Gamers have really been showing this year that they're so fed up with it.

The right to create art goes hand-in-hand with the right to comment on it.

[Quercus]

I find Hornyvivienne's statements extremely ignorant, sexist and offensive.

 

"I don’t need to play a game and be reminded how much men actually hate women"

 

Wow...Wow.

 

 

I really don't understand how can these people call themselves feminists when they say such ignorant, hateful statements about men.

She states only women get hurtful messages/threats on the internet, only women experience sexism in daily lives etc.

 

I'll stray away from vivienne's behavior (so sassy) and move on to my opinion on all this is:

 

I agree that universes with social injustices can be interesting, and Dragon Age ceirtanly is.Though I wonder why we never see universes where:

-Women are the superior gender. (1)

-White people are the submissive race. (2)

-Homosexuality is considered high, noble and a rare blessing (3)

 

etc.

 

Copies of real life injustices that are in the current society or in the past are getting repetetive.I want something new.

 

(1) Games are still a medium used and created mostly by men. And even though I as a man would find such setting interesting in a RPG, marketing and development is steering more towards streaking the male ego. Because again, games are still a medium used and created mostly by men.

 

(2) Hmm, if we count Asians as non-white. Then white people have been ridiculed quite a lot in Japanese games, mostly because they stereo type it.

But if you mean in how the past treated black/white differences, then it's probably because no one has thought of something like that, the only reason why you see dark people being discriminated in games is because they use a historical setting. Or the way ghettos work in America?

 

(3) Most probably because that would effect birthrate, and rulers wont be getting any heirs.

[Mathias]

I have seen this argument many times and I will say that freedom, artistic or otherwise, does not mean freedom of criticism. I feel people have put a very high bar for Bioware that at times seems ridiculously unfair and unjust to the point I feel I cannot criticize the games in a calm manner because the high standard that is so high it often seems they cannot help but fail. And they seem to be the only ones trying, and I feel to all the other companies they might just go "why should we try when even trying to go the distance they get a whole bunch of flack?

 

I say all this, but no one is hurting any ones freedom. If you wanted a world where no one could ever comment on any criticism because that is "censoring creative expression" than you lose their freedom as well. The point is, you are allowed to make a game and people are allowed to hate it or want it to be something else. And both of those are artistic freedom. One or the other may be rude or impolite, even cruel, but freedom of expression never means freedom from criticism.

 

Oh "criticism", is that what's happening? Cause I could've sworn what I've actually been seeing are people harassing and shaming devs. You have the right to tell developers that you want less sexualization in their games. They have the right to ignore you or tell you to ****** off.

[Ianamus]

I disagree, because raping women is actually a fundamental setting element when it comes to darkspawn reproduction.

 

I was talking more specifically about Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age Origins is quite old now, and was much more questionable in this regard all around. 

 

The Darkspwan reproduction thing is definitely an interesting case, though. It was definitely treated with the disgust it deserved, and was one of the most chilling moments in the entire series, so I'd call that an effective use of the trope. Much more so than, say, the City Elf Origin, which I thought was handled rather poorly and didn't need the rape aspect to function. Something like what happened in Halamshiral in the Masked Empire would have worked much better.

[Xilizhra]

Oh "criticism", is that what's happening? Cause I could've sworn what I've actually been seeing are people harassing and shaming devs. You have the right to tell developers that you want less sexualization in their games. They have the right to ignore you or tell you to ****** off.

Well, clearly. And we have the right in turn to criticize their attitude.

[phantomrachie]

Then how about the "others" make it themselves? What is the Big Bad White Man stopping them from getting together the funds and manpower to create something that caters to them?

 

 

Because there there are certain demographics in this world that have less challenges to doing this.

 

In the US a white man is more likely to go to college than a black man, and is more likely to graduate than a woman or black man. 

Due to institutional racism & sexism, white men are also more likely to be employed in certain industries.

They are also more likely to get funding from investors.

 

Then there are all the challenges that people can face in an industry that is predominantly made up of white men that can cause them to quit or  otherwise have a more difficult time.

 

There is nothing about individual white men that stops people from making their own media, but there are many things that have been built into our culture that makes it more difficult for people in certain demographics to get their media made.

 

I don't believe that social issues and media can be separated. The media we make is a direct reflection of our society, from the story it tells and  the characters that are in it, all the way to the techniques that are used to create it.

[catabuca]

<snip>

 

This goes for all developers. If some guy wants to make a game where you play a hot scantily clad woman in armor, killing enemies in violent ways, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it. These people don't realize they're doing more damage than good. It's a witch hunt. There are games out there that cater to everyone. It's more diverse than it ever was. But this type of behavior from social justice extremists needs to stop. Gamers have really been showing this year that they're so fed up with it.

 

"If some guy wants to make a game where you play a rich white guy who goes around lynching poor black people, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it."

 

"If some guy wants to make a game where you play a straight homophobe who goes around shooting gay people, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it."

 

"If some guy wants to make a game where you play an able-bodied person who goes around kicking disabled people out of their wheelchairs, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it."

 

"If some guy wants to make a game where you play a paedophile stalking children in a school yard, then he should. But you know what shouldn't be happening? People on twitter harassing the developer because they're offended by it."

 

I'm clearly being facetious, but I'm trying to make the point that as a society we point out behaviour that we deem to be harmful to particular groups of people. Sexism, racism, homophobia, etc., in our media can be harmful because they perpetuate real world attitudes and behaviours that have a direct effect on people every day. Some of those effects can be life-threatening. It's a giant feedback loop. Games, films, books - none of them exist in a vacuum. They are constituted by and in turn help constitute our real world attitudes and behaviours. 

 

The argument that there are other more socially progressive games out there to play if you don't like the sexist ones ignores that entirely. I might be able to avoid playing a game were women are objectified, or avoid online games where slurs are screamed by its players. But I can't avoid the real life ramifications of a society that lets these things go unchallenged. I can't avoid the real possibility of rape. I can't avoid the reality of the gender pay gap. I can't avoid the reality of gay people being assaulted and sometimes murdered because they are gay. And so on. The failure to understand that there is this feedback loop is a fundamental problem with how these things are often 'discussed' online.

 

It is hardly 'social justice extremism' to understand how our culture impacts the rest of our society, and how the rest of our society impacts our culture. It is hardly extremism to want everyone to be afforded the same respect, fairness and opportunities. "Go and play a different game" is a non-argument that willfully ignores the link between culture and society. It belies an attitude that suggests someone who is quite happy that there are inequalities in our society, and who would rather like it if they continued.

[MissOuJ]

Exactly. The market decides who the primary audience is, and if white straight cis gamers are buying video games more than anyone else, then we'll probably see a lot of straight white male protagonists and things this gamer type likes. Nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't go to a fashion store and complain that the female section is 2-3 times larger than the male section and how that is sexist.

 

So, because FPSs and sports games are the bestsellers, we should only make those?

 

Because GTAV has sold well over 30 million copies, all the games should try to be GTAV?

 

Because games such as survival horror, point-and-click adventures and the like are a relatively niche market they shouldn't be made anymore?

 

Because Bejewed has sold over 100 million units all other types of games are just not profitable any more?

 

Why is it that every single time this argument is used its always about how women and minorities should shut up about representation in gaming and just deal?

[Applepie_Svk]

Ah look another one of those Social Justice Warriors threads... lol

[karushna5]

Oh "criticism", is that what's happening? Cause I could've sworn what I've actually been seeing are people harassing and shaming devs. You have the right to tell developers that you want less sexualization in their games. They have the right to ignore you or tell you to ****** off.

 

Agreed, but many people are not, there have been people giving trouble to the Devs in all areas. But that is the inherent problem with social media especially for people that are known outside their social circle. People receive hate from people who don't know them everyday, and it is wrong. Very wrong. Harrassing someone in their private space is cruel and bullying. Sadly social media has degraded the idea of private space on the internet, and there are 10 different ways of bullying people.

 

I dont agree with that at all. But we were talking about whether people had the right to say things bad about the games in general. What she said would have not been an issue as much if it had been on here. Saying something is terrible and hating someone for it, as compared to bullying them in their own space have a wide gulf between them.

 

But my comment was meant toward criticism (whether seriously discussed or not) instead of invading people's personal space to harrass them.

[Mathias]

Jesus Christ people go get a real problem. Go live in Liberia where people and villages are being wiped out by Ebola.

Oh I'm sorry let's hear about your first world video game problems instead. We need more gay and transsexual characters.

[PrayingMantis]

Sorry, but saying stuff like "it's just a game, get over it, focus on the real world" is rather silly.

The media influences the way people think. Games do, too --> They influence our real world.

If some people see that stuff in the majority of games, they will start to think that it's perfectly normal to make sexist remarks and etc. 

You may think the media does not influence you, but it does influence a great number of other people.

 

I got used to the way the world in dragon age works, but I am nevertheless tired of the fact, that there are so many franchises in which you can spot this kind of sexism somewhere.

It's like people refuse to find a fictional world realistic, if there is no sexism there. It became so normal in our real world to be encountered with that, that people find the lack of sexism in games odd. They want it.

 

As a woman you're encountered with that bullshit nearly everyday. Women want to have positive experiences in games, just like men. They don't want to live through that discriminating stuff they face everyday again, that's so super tiring.

 

In my opinion, Dragon Age isn't even that sexist in comparison to certain other games. That itself makes it one of my most favourite franchises, but still - it could do better in some cases.

[Tymvir]

So, because FPS's and sports games are the bestsellers, we should only make those?

 

Because GTAV has sold well over 30 million copies, all the games should try to be GTAV?

 

Because games such as survival horror, point-and-click adventures and the like are a relatively niche market, they shouldn't be made anymore?

 

Because Bejewed has sold over 100 million units all other types of games are just not profitable any more?

 

Why is it that every single time this argument is used its always about how women and minorities should shut up about representation in gaming and just deal?

 

I personally enjoy Bioware's inclusive games (obviously) and I think every developer should be able to develop the games they want to make. Putting political pressure on developers and forcing them to develop games based on feminist or other ideologies is only going to create terrible games. Nobody in the industry is trying to oppress women, and in genres women buy more than others they are well-represented. Take point-and-click adventures, for example. They probably feature more female than male protagonists.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Jesus Christ people go get a real problem. Go live in Liberia where people and villages are being wiped out by Ebola.

Oh I'm sorry let's hear about your first world video game problems instead. We need more gay and transsexual characters.

How about we don't change the terms of the debate and instead discuss the topic at hand. Given we're all sitting on a video game forum - in advance of the games release no less - I think we can safely assume we all have an interest in the topic of video games. Given we all voluntarily entered this thread we can assume we all want to read about and possibly comment on the topic. We'd more likely be on a news site if we wanted to discuss current world events, wouldn't we?