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The hornyvivienne thread: Sexism in Thedas


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#151
Ibn_Shisha

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I'd love to see a game that tried to address the climate change and renewable energy issues seriously.

 

 

You know if we were to view magic as an allegory for energy I see a way this very game could pursue that route. Although that's more an interesting thought experiment and probably not for this thread.

FF7, sort of.

 

Dont force sexism it out of art, that includes story.

If something has a dark setting, dark **** happens, that includes sexism.

That's one of the things I tried to get through in my previous post.  Bad stuff does happen IRL.  Portraying that bad stuff as something that is bad, something to be addressed and overcome (which I believe Bioware does pretty well compared to other developers), is a lot different thant portraying such things as something to be encouraged.  On the other hand, removing the bad stuff from media entirely just breeds ignorance of the issue.


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#152
Mihura

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I think the major problem is not the world being sexist, because I welcome it and overall think that the most effective culture critique can be done in that types of settings. 

 

The problem is your character or characters that are against sexism are weak in the way they address it. They have to give the player and some characters more agency and smarter dialogues to speak up agaist it, which I think is still a problem the writers did not quit resolved.

 

Isabela was a good character and they could had done more, sometimes it got diluted in all the attacks she received. 


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#153
volkoff

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I find the discussion of percentages of male/female players asinine. But nevertheless, since it seems to keep cropping up as a way to shut down all these evil women who so unfairly don't like sexism, I'll leave this link here:

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...utnumber-males/

 

 

 

 

I don't present these data as evidence that women should therefore be represented more than men. I don't present it in order to gloat or thumb my nose or suggest women are 'better' than men, or anything else that often gets thrown around in the opposite direction.

 

I present it to show that the received wisdom (which is anything but wise) that has it that men play more of X than women so shut up women simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

But frankly, even if it did, it is still no excuse to allow unfettered sexism, racism, homophobia, or anything else in our media. Because what are we really saying if we accept that line of argument? We are saying that men are inherently sexist, that they all want to see women as playthings and objects, and that is the way it should be. We are saying that because there is sexism in our patriarchal society, there should therefore be sexism in our patriarchal society. We are saying that if men play more of X than women, we should cater for the lowest common denominator, all men are sexist, all men want the same thing, and we should continue to prop up this type of world. 

 

That seems anathema to what we should be saying. We should be holding our media to a higher standard. It's okay to have sexism in our media if it's men who are playing it? It's okay to have racism in our media if it's white people who are consuming it? If anything, that's exactly why it should be tackled in those things.

 

wait, i dont get this thread anymore.

anyway, yes, armor bikini's can disappear from gaming imo. they're absurd and completely unreal. they can also stop sexualising male and female characters. (if you mean that kind of sexism) however, the point i'm trying to make is that there is sexism in the real world and i prefer games which are coherent storywise (and with humanity) there should be sexism or anything else representative of the real world in the story of dragon age. homophobic templars, racist mages, whatever.

however sexism in the industry can go imo.
 



#154
Sylvius the Mad

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Do you do it because you fear rape?

Any assault on personal autonomy, rape included.

Getting the keys out early costs me nothing, so I do it. It just makes sense.

Also, do you still do it when there's absolutely no one within sight?

Not initially, but I do now. It's just habit.

Do you ever stop at the door to think "Damn, were are my keys?" only to realise a split-second later that they're already in your hand because you took them out of your bag when you were still in the bus, because this process has become automatic to you?

It's sufficiently automatic that I know they're in my hand. If ever they're not, I'll sometimes try to unlock the door with an empty hand.

Because I do.

I'm sorry.

You seem to do it out of fear, every day. Whereas, I initially did it out of fear, but now it's just something I do. I've taken the precautions I can, so there's little point in me worrying about it further.

Seen as this is the most common insult I receive from men when I don't do what they want (no matter how polite I am in my refusal) and the most common insult I see other women in the same situation receive, I have to disagree.

I would expect it to be used to describe cruelty or dismissiveness, not assertiveness.

But only when applied to women. When used on men, it seems to describe whiny behaviour.

My point exactly. Again, we have to ask "why are female gendered insults so easy to use"? This is a bigger cultural problem.

I would prefer the word become genericised, so that it no longer has gender relevance.

But why is it that it's one of the only kinds of stories women have in some media, in addition to rape and kidnapping? And why, particularly in the sci-fi genre, is it usually portrayed as boderline bodyhorror?

Because some writers are sexist.

I would not describe the DA writers in that way, however.

#155
HK-90210

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Seriously? And what is the part of social influence in this matter? Are we what we are by nature or because we are conditioned to be that way?

 

Social influence is HUGE. It either inhibits and discourages or exacerbates and encourages the already flawed nature of men and women. But no matter how hard society tries to stamp it out, human beings will always be flawed and sinful creatures. Society conditions sexism, of course. But here's the thing: Man(and/or Woman)kind without society would be a chaotic, destructive thing without any rules or morality. You think sexism wouldn't exist in that kind of environment? It would thrive!

 

Sexism will always be around, in one way or another, as long as human beings are the flawed things that they are. And flawed humans cannot create a a society without flaws, nor can a perfect society spawn unflawed human beings. Society can either temper or enflame the flaws of people. But it can never stamp them out.

 

NwzNHrG.jpg

 

In my point of vue, it's not a "key" component but only a component among others. So I won't prononce myself without context, I don't know if I would qualify a game happening in an imaginary world without sexism as boring, that would depends on the story told.

 

I'm fine with an individual story being told without sexism. But a world without sexism at all is a world without realistic people and characters, in my view.



#156
volkoff

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... Anno 2070?

 

depending on the side you chose ;)



#157
Sylvius the Mad

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Strange argument.

Nonsensical argument. There is no basis for tolerance of sexism.

#158
Sully13

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Aaaaaand i couldnt care less.. actualy that is a lie i could but i dont.

its a fictional world.

rebarding Brood mothers and rape is it any different to any darkspawn being turned? there is no evedince of sexual assault but more os torture and infection.

recarding City Elf it dose not endorse Rape. end of discusion.

is the Idiot the hero? .. what happens to him in the end?     



#159
Mathias

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 Sexism isn't a 'first world problem'.  That's a cruelly patronizing and not at all conductive thing to say.  This is a forum about video games.  And we're in a post specifically designated for the discussion of sexism in this video game.  So...  Personally, I think this is a pretty thought provoking thread and I'm intrigued by the well typed posts I'm reading from both sides.  But the 'lol get sum real issues hur hurr' 's seem mean spirited.

 

 

Sexism is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Sexism in a video game is a first world problem at best. A woman getting harassed at her job and being underpaid is an issue. A woman in a video game being harassed is not. Especially when you consider the context at which it's done. This has nothing to do with being mean.


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#160
catabuca

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Sexism is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Sexism in a video game is a first world problem at best. A woman getting harassed at her job and being underpaid is an issue. A woman in a video game being harassed is not. Especially when you consider the context at which it's done. This has nothing to do with being mean.

 

Again, you appear to be ignoring how culture impacts society, and how society impacts culture. 

 

The cultural products we consume do not suddenly spring up in a vacuum, bearing no relation to the world that created them, having no impact on the world that consumes them.


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#161
tmp7704

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Sexism is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Sexism in a video game is a first world problem at best. A woman getting harassed at her job and being underpaid is an issue. A woman in a video game being harassed is not. Especially when you consider the context at which it's done. So please, stop with the whole meany weeny angle. I'm not being mean, I'm being realistic here.

Having women in video game being harassed with attitude "this is normal" contributes to normalizing these sexist attitudes in general. It's in large part why any discussion about it is met with such backlash -- because of a prospect that instead of sending the current message "this is normal and prevalent, nothing to feel conscious or bad about" the medium may actually call people out on their **** behavior in real, by presenting scenarios where such "normal" behaviour ain't.
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#162
Sully13

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yes sexism exist simply not at the level that feminists claim it dose.

in video games its prettymutch erelevent.  

are you talking about in Thaedas? erelevent. in gameing its self? its a meritocrocy.



#163
MissOuJ

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Sexism is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Sexism in a video game is a first world problem at best. A woman getting harassed at her job and being underpaid is an issue. A woman in a video game being harassed is not. Especially when you consider the context at which it's done. This has nothing to do with being mean.

 

Sexist attitudes and practices being mirrored in our escapist media without criticism are reflections of "real" misogyny, and they can have harmful real-life consequences.

 

Media doesn't exit in a vacuum.


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#164
Mykel54

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There should be sexist characters, the same way there are racist characters in the game. There is casual violence and even slavers. So no, i do not want the DA setting to turn into an "utopia world" were nothing bad is going on. These things are never depicted as positive, but as flaws, so i don´t the see the issue.

 

If someone gets offended by those then i suggest don´t going out of your house, because the real world is way more offensive that any videogame can be.


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#165
Sully13

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there is that Steven Fry quote.



#166
Mihura

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Sexism is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Sexism in a video game is a first world problem at best. A woman getting harassed at her job and being underpaid is an issue. A woman in a video game being harassed is not. Especially when you consider the context at which it's done. This has nothing to do with being mean.

 

Yes an no, a woman in a video game being harassed is indeed really problematic if the game acknowledge that as a good thing, messages in stories are powerful tools, otherwise they would not existed since, well ever.

If you pass a message that women are week and victims, that will translate in criminal assaults in real life, criminals do not want fair fights, since they are cowards. So yes your story has a lot of impact if you are middle famous.


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#167
Sylvius the Mad

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Sexist content should be allowed to exist. And we should be allowed to criticise it.
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#168
Flog the Undying

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yes sexism exist simply not at the level that feminists claim it dose.

in video games its prettymutch erelevent.  

are you talking about in Thaedas? erelevent. in gameing its self? its a meritocrocy.

 

Are you actually implying that having men overcome women in nearly every game out there in depth, presentation and representation is 'Meritocracy'?!

 

Jesus goddamn christ.

 

And no, it's no more 'erelevant' than racism in games is.



#169
nightcobra

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Now that I think on it...

 

 

Wouldn't have it made more sense to have more sexism against men in Thedas? In Chantry-centric regions at least.

With a setting having a female Messiah figure, a female power oriented religion system and all-round  filled with female leaders, you'd think men would have the short end of the stick in this one.

Women, biologically, are already more valuable than men  seeing as how a man can reproduce with a lot of women at one time, women cannot and have the whole 9 month gestation period thing. a man by biological definition is the more expendable gender and that being the reason why men were sent into battle instead of the women. all for the population's survival.

Really, I'd think it would make more sense for a portion of Chantry women to see men as lesser beings.

 

but seeing as how the lore is already established, no such luck.



#170
veeia

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Probably worth mentioning that hornyvivi's post is not the be all and end all of her point, but part of a larger conversation about sexism in the games that has been taking place on tumblr for awhile. She didn't expect gaider to respond to that, and it's hardly fair to expect her post to reflect everything she felt about the issue. There's a lot of venting going on there, and I'm personally sad he choose to respond to that, rather than the other reblogs on that post that offered more detailed explanations of why they felt the sexism in the game did t work.

Also please do not send angry messages to that poster. By opening the dialogue here, where it's not as accepted as it would be on her tumblr, you're opening her up to attacks from people...which she doesn't deserve.
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#171
Sully13

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Are you actually implying that having men overcome women in nearly every game out there in depth, presentation and representation is 'Meritocracy'?!

 

Jesus goddamn christ.

 

And no, it's no more 'erelevant' than racism in games is.

no iam sugesting you do not beleave everything you read.  

regading the game its self Yes Sexism and raceism is there. now let me ask you this. why?

Why do you beleave Bioware has sutch things in the game?



#172
Tevinter Soldier

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You're making the mistake of seeing criticism as a bad thing, what makes you think that? I've just finished a major project at work, what am I doing, ripping big chunks of what we did to shreds so when it comes around next year it will be better. Criticism is what brings improvement, it's what gives you the best game possible. If that's what you want, embrace the idea. You might disagree with the criticism itself, and that's fine, but to disagree with the act of criticism is to pretty much cut the throat of improvement.

 

But is the plot and story a platform for social issues and should it be?

 

the way i see it Video games are at the cliff face there's two ways video games can progress.

 

on the one hand what music has become:

where there's thousands of musicians who write and perform the songs they want, criticism be damned. this results in genres of music in all forms.

everything from a children's song i hate speech.

If you can think it you can find and the industry is just so rich for there's always some music that speaks to you moves you and you play it over and over again. it may not be the most popular thing out their but its there. if any artist wants to write about it they can an will.

 

on the other hand what movies have become:

bland common denominator crap, where everyone's soo afraid to offend someone no of the classic films we cherish could ever hope to be made in our time. everything's focus groups and budget's. If the producer wants a to focus on social issues it becomes the main theme and plot duct taped on it. if not it becomes about explosions or stupid camera angles. all because everything is ground down to one singular point. Maximise profits.

forget anything controversial or unique lets go for the maximum dollars.

 

and the stories have gotten lost, nowadays in film the only time boundaries are pushed is so they can market a film as pushing boundaries. Nothings organic everything is bland, sterilised and utterly forgettable. how many films have you seen in the last ten years that you fell in love with? watched time and time and time again to the point where you can quote lines from obscure parts of the film?

 

compare that to song's over the last 10 years?

everyone has that song in their car that album that's sitting in the car that you switch on when the radio is just **** talk and ad's or you've had a really shitty day and you reach over cycle through that disk searching song after song after song of poorly formatted music with no names and inconsistent album sizes. 

and depending on that how your feeling you just know which song you want. which song speaks to you at that time.

 

no movie compares to that, and thats because music has such depth and range. but that comes at cost. because music it's is still raw compared to movies.

and that comes at a cost. that coast is range. that cost is leaving the artist to perform what they want to perform.

 

if you don't like miley cyris singing about demolition equipment don't listen.

you don't want to lessen to tupac saying **** the police don't listen.

Michael buble singing about christmas don't listen.

aerosmith singing about a car crash don't listen.

 

and it goes on and on and on. but one thing you don't do is tell the artist to "improve" their work.

it's art if you don't like find what you don't do is walk up to Charles Willmott and tell him to "improve" his next painting because you didn't feel it handled an issue the way you liked.

 

would you give a serve to boarderlands for going cell shading? of course not. why because it was a design choice.

would you give a serve to 50 cent for swearing 55 times in a song? of course not because he chose to do it.

or any painter for their choice of colour?

Steven king for his pacing?

 

none of these because we understand this is art this is for something artist wants.

 

so why does bioware cop flack for the most artistic part of their games? the story! Sure say you don't like, say it looks like ****, that its not your cuppa tea. But spare me this idea that the game has to be to your exact social and political POV because that's not what at is about.

 

once video games stop doing things because people are offended is when we head to the movies route dull and boring. Hollywood isn't out of ideas they keep doing remakes because its becomes so politicised and scared of every action group under the sun that the studios are afraid to take risk's.

 

which means the very content your after becomes few and far between because its deemed controversial.

 

find me 5 movies that have been more opening to gender and sexuality as bioware games? 

 

I'd understand if people just came out didn't respect the medium and said I hate it you can hate something that's perfect fine, but if you respect the artist and the medium you have to accept you will not like certain things and its ok for you NOT TO LIKE SOMETHING, instead find something you like grab hold of it and relish it. allow the industry to grow naturally.

 

but don't demand the industry change for you because like movies the more you try and change things the less growth and development the medium will have.

everything will wind up being bejewelled so its not offensive.


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#173
Giantdeathrobot

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Again, you appear to be ignoring how culture impacts society, and how society impacts culture. 

 

The cultural products we consume do not suddenly spring up in a vacuum, bearing no relation to the world that created them, having no impact on the world that consumes them.

 

The story also has a context. Creating a medieval inspired world, with all the assorted racism, classism, bigotry, superstition and the like, and leaving out sexism completely is nothing more than political correctness for its own sake and I am personally utterly uninterested in such a thing.

 

Besides, stories thrive on conflict, whenever verbal or violent, and conflict is fueled by things like the above. You can't have a combat-focused game with a squeaky clean setting that tries super hard not to offend anyone at all.

 

If people want to avoid being offended, play a E ot T rated game, there are plenty of those on the market that don't tackle those issues, and are certainly not objectively lesser for it. But if you're playing an M rated game, a game that you know happens in a medieval setting where shitty stuff happens, well I'm sorry, but wanting it to be super clean and unoffensive is disingenuous. I mean cripes, it's not like Bioware has ever condoned sexist behavior even if they put it in their game, and since the writing team is composed by a majority of women or gay men I'm pretty sure we can't accuse them of being evil straight white male oppressors either.

 

It still amazes me that being able to massacre hundreds with reckless abandon in many, many video games never elicits a response, but if a NPC in that game isn't nice towards women we should mount on the barricades and be watchul of the rampant sexism. You can only cry wolf for so long before people start to not bother listening anymore. 


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#174
MWImexico

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But here's the thing: Man(and/or Woman)kind without society would be a chaotic, destructive thing without any rules or morality. You think sexism wouldn't exist in that kind of environment? It would thrive!

 

And yet society exist, people have chosen and they seem to prefer order than chaos. What does that told you about our nature?

 

 

I'm fine with an individual story being told without sexism. But a world without sexism at all is a world without realistic people and characters, in my view.

 

And yet, this world could still be very interesting, depending on the direction chosen by the author. So a world where magic people and dragons exist is ok but not a world without sexism?


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#175
Diefenbaker

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Now that I think on it...

 

 

Wouldn't have it made more sense to have more sexism against men in Thedas? In Chantry-centric regions at least.

With a setting having a female Messiah figure, a female power oriented religion system and all-round  filled with female leaders, you'd think men would have the short end of the stick in this one.

Women, biologically, are already more valuable than men  seeing as how a man can reproduce with a lot of women at one time, women cannot and have the whole 9 month gestation period thing. a man by biological definition is the more expendable gender and that being the reason why men were sent into battle instead of the women. all for the population's survival.

Really, I'd think it would make more sense for a portion of Chantry women to see men as lesser beings.

 

but seeing as how the lore is already established, no such luck.

 

Damn, that would have added a nice dimension to the lore, nice insight.