296 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Is this an actual consistent thing in DA?

My recollection seems to be that we end up rescuing more men than women in DA.

I didn't find it to be a consistent problem in DA, no.

[Diefenbaker]

I'll admit, recently I played my second playthrough of DAO as a human female this time (previously played an Elf male) I was a little shocked (yes, stick with me) at how every other quest giver or companion seemed to bring up the woman as a warden thing. It was easy for me to think, "is this really necessary", "this is making me feel uncomfortable".

But then I realised, you get that kind of response regardless of who you play as anyway. It's part of the game to have NPCs react to you differently depending on who you play as. If you play as a female, you'll get sexist remarks, if you play an Elf, humans will respond to you negatively. Even if you play a human male, you'll get called a Shemlen. Yes, the way females are treated sometimes in the game is sexism, but that's part of Thedas too and you get different choices on how you respond to it.
 

[Sylvius the Mad]

its the same in the real world.

I complain about both.

Unfairness is blind.

[Battlebloodmage]

Well, this is the reason why threads like this get started.  Sexism does hurt everyone in the long run.  For what it's worth, I agree that the over-idealization of the "dumb straight guy," is a huge problem as well.  I know it hasn't been addressed much here, but your words weren't lost in a vacuum.  

Hey, I love dumb guys. I think they're cute. Seriously.

I think it's just an archetype that being followed because it's successful, like in Japan with the whole tsundere, yandere. If people didn't like it, then it wouldn't exist. Like how 95% of the main characters in American TV shows and movies are whites. They're the main consumers, so they're the ones being catered to. At the same time, they believe that any other formats wouldn't work because they think no one would want to watch it.

[veeia]

Mostly I think its a missed opportunity to include some interesting worldbuilding regarding theology. The Chantry just seems like "Catholics, but with women" instead of what a institution where spiritual matters are dominated by women would look like and talk about about. And that to me, is because they were putting some of our society's sexism without realizing it. I would expect there still to be sexism, but I would also expect it to manifest differently considering how their worldview is shaped by a different t set of myths.

[Grieving Natashina]

Hey, I love dumb guys. I think they're cute. Seriously.

I think it's just an archetype that being followed because it's successful, like in Japan with the whole tsundere, yandere. If people didn't like it, then it wouldn't exist. Like how 95% of the main characters in American TV shows and movies are whites. They're the main consumers, so they're the ones being catered to. At the same time, they believe that any other formats wouldn't work because they think no one would want to watch it.

And this is why conversations like this need to happen.  Just because it's the status quo doesn't mean that is the way things should stay.  

[phantomrachie]

I never got this complaint: 

 

There are some things that are sexist to women in Dragon Age. 

There are some things that are sexist to men in Dragon Age. 

 

Yet only the first is complained about. 

 

well women have been historically kept out of certain sections of society due to sexism, so it has had a historically more negative effect on women.

 

That is not to say that derogatory images of men shouldn't also be critised, particularly as these negative images are now starting to have a negative effect on men.

[veeia]

The dumb guy archetype is almost always hand in hand with the hyper-responsible humorless woman, who exists to be his straight man and keep him in line. At least the dumb guy is supposed to be likable. I hate that trope pairing so much.

[Sully13]

I complain about both.

Unfairness is blind.

As do i.. then i get called a Sexist, Sockpuppet, Oh i even got terrorist once. whitch was great. 

[Grieving Natashina]

The dumb guy archetype is almost always hand in hand with the hyper-responsible humorless woman, who exists to be his straight man and keep him in line. At least the dumb guy is supposed to be likable. I hate that trope pairing so much.

I think it's safe to say that a lot fantasy fans are sick and tired of that one.  

[Ibn_Shisha]

Women consistently needing to be rescued by men would count.
And this becomes problematic if the PC can be male.

And yet, we also consistently set about rescuing men in DA as well, when our PC can be a woman (and sometimes the man is rescued from a woman).
To name a few:
Connor
Irving
Genitivi
Debris
Donnic
Saemus (rescued from a woman)
Keran (rescued from a woman)
Eamon

[Jaison1986]

Hey, I love dumb guys. I think they're cute. Seriously.

I think it's just an archetype that being followed because it's successful, like in Japan with the whole tsundere, yandere. If people didn't like it, then it wouldn't exist. Like how 95% of the main characters in American TV shows and movies are whites. They're the main consumers, so they're the ones being catered to. At the same time, they believe that any other formats wouldn't work because they think no one would want to watch it.

 

And as an white person I can say I would be willing to watch it. So long as they don't sacrifice quality in order to fill quotas.

[Sully13]

I think it's safe to say that a lot fantasy fans are sick and tired of that one.  

I want a Luciel Ball you never see that these days out side MLP.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

its the same in the real world.

Oh trust me, I know. Since people are discussing rape in here, let's go with that. Statistics show that 40% of rapists are women and nearly half of people who can be considered rape victims are men, but most of the male victims can't legally say they were raped because they themselves weren't penetrated. To gfive an example, if a female rapist shoves their thumb up the male victim's butt it can be called rape, but if he is restrained and she inserts him into her he cannot say it is rape. That is messed up. 

 

 

I think it's because, in this case, we're talking about rape being used for the story.  The male PC has never been given the impression of having that happen as a danger.  While any savvy player knows that the female PC isn't going to be raped, this is used as a threat twice.  Once most notoriously during the CE origin, and once in the Deep Roads when you find out where baby Darkspawn come from.

 

You know me; I'm not going to pretend that sexism towards men is non-existent in Thedas.  However, the threat of rape towards a male isn't used in storytelling.  I think the issue comes from the idea that rape was used as a dramatic thread for the female PC.

I still don't think Broodmothers are a result of rape. The poem has many interpretations, only one of which involves it.

 

As for men being raped not being used in storytelling, part of the reason I think it isn't in because if it was a man being raped by a man it would be seen as depicting a negative view on homosexuals, and for woman on man sadly most people don't think men can get raped by women, despite what I said earlier this post. But everyone knows of the evil men who rape women. 

[veeia]

How is getting impregnated by Darkspawn not rape?

[Han Shot First]

The dumb guy archetype is almost always hand in hand with the hyper-responsible humorless woman, who exists to be his straight man and keep him in line. At least the dumb guy is supposed to be likable. I hate that trope pairing so much.

 

That's why I don't watch sitcoms. That accounts for about 95% of them. You usually get the stupid dad who can't do anything right without his wife setting him on the right course, but who manages to be funny and likable, and the straight 'man' wife who is the brains of the household but also a bit of an annoying killjoy.

[BloodyTalon]

Does anyone ever make a point to point out the auctally sexism in the game, such has when you rescue the one kid in redcliff a male warden can ask for a different reward from his sister (results in a kiss, but you know the point that could be made about that option being in the game. ). Rarely see that point made instead some issues are more far reaching then anything.

-shrugs- Just politics getting into games is giving me a headache, so maybe I'm out of line.  Have enough politics in the real world and on tv now a-days

[Gothfather]

Okay it seems My post is too large for some fraking reason so I have to do it in parts. PART I

 

I

I'm not going to discount Hornyvivienne out of hand because I think people people often miss the entire point of a critique. When you jump to the defence of X piece of art because someone point out something. You miss the whole point of what social critique is for to make us take astep back and go hmmm. This doesn't mean you have to agree with or accept that the points of the critique are correct either, but the conversation should go beyond X is Y, No your wrong X isn't Y. A good critique on sexest trope in a games will not boil things down to have one single example of these tropes and your game = bad/evil. It will have examples of these tropes in the worst examples of games and the best examples of game that have these tropes to provide context.

 

So what is being said?

 

 

hornyvivienne:

 

The description you (and some others) are referring to says “men and women are generally equal in Thedas”. You can ignore the “generally” if you wish, but you really shouldn’t. There are plenty of places in the setting where that’s demonstrated to not be true. There are also plenty of places where it is. Men and women are generally equal in Thedas, certainly far more than they were in our own

“Are there people under the impression we were aiming for a sexism-free setting?”

One of the first descriptions in the CC is ‘Men and women are equal in Thedas.’ That implies that sexism doesn’t — or shouldn’t — exist. If there was equality between all genders including men and women, then there wouldn’t be discrimination of any kinds, and that doesn’t only include overt sexism, it includes microaggressions. That would also mean a lack of misogynoir, transmisogyny and the like.

 

Canada is a good example of a place where racially people are pretty equal. We don't have epidemic of white cops killing innocent racial minorities, it does happen but that the police make a mistake in canada but these shootings are VERY rare and in vancouver the biggest example of police over stepping that resulted in a death is where 4 RCMP constibles killed a polish immigrant a white guy. I have a few minority friends and they feel canada as a whole has racial equality. This doesn't mean we don't have racism and if you ask a native person is Canada racist you'd likely get a very different answer. So what my point?

 

Canadians tend to think we live in a minority utopia because the sestemic racist that we see south of the boarder isn't her, yet the truth is we aren't where we think we are and we need to still look to places where we haven't got it right. Thedas is a world where sexism has reach a place where the roles of men and women have become equal, in that woman warrior sure most people will not bat an eye. But you will find examples where Thedas has to work on the issue. I think there is value in showing us that even when we think an issue has been "WON" we need to perhaps not put a big bloody banner on a aircraft carrier saying "Mission accomplished" just yet. (To take an example from USA recent history). I think games can remind us that even if you have solved a problem instatutionally you haven't solved it completely. So I think there is value in Thedas pointing out that if Thedas has a long way to go still we have an even LONGER way to go.

 

 

 

 

...

 

“If someone believes it would be better to have a setting without these things, that’s fine.”

Why do we need bigotry in game? Why is it a necessity to have women being raped or murdered in game? Why is it a-okay to have Isabela being called a ‘side dish’ and a ‘******’, to have the female Warden called a ****** — or even for Anora to be called a ****** by a female Warden of all people?

 

I mean, it’s all very well for you to sit there and say that you’re okay with having repugnant elements in game as long as it’s ‘by design’, but men don’t actually experience sexism in everyday life. You don’t know what it’s like to be subjected to a barrage of rape threats for speaking up on the internet, or being harassed on the street for having the nerve to exist.

I don’t need to play a game and be reminded how much men actually hate women. I don’t want my female Inquisitor to be called a harlot or a ****** in a world where equality between all genders is supposed to exist.

Maybe you’re okay with that, but I am 100% not.

 

 

You may not need to be reminded what it is like for a woman to exist in a world where they get rape threats on the internet ect... BUT as you point out men don't have a daily experience of these things. As a man living in Vancouver I never worry about being assaulted or attacked. Last night was all Souls day, me an a friend went to a graveyard last night, for me I was walking without giving a thought to the fact that it was dark and there were no escape routes ahead of me. NOT so my friend who was a women, she was thinking this is dark and i am in heeled boots i can't run and there is NO one around if we are attacked. I have no perspective of living my life like that. A video game can give me a different perspective. I can play a female character and be confronted with things women face daily. Is it equal in a game hell no. Does it provide a tool to help get perspective? i don't know but i can. If a man playing is aware of the issue it just might provide a sliver of light to an issue women have that men don't. I am not advocating we create a game where we teach men playing as women what it is like to be sexually assaulted, but i think we can perhaps find value in showing men that woman are question about their competence just for having different plumbing.

 

Specifically with regards to rape in Dragon Age.

 

I think it can be honestly said that dragon age did this well and did this poorly. I think the Dark spawn brood mother was a better example. Here we see that the situation was not in the game just to make the world gritty and dark. It wasn't in the plot just so we went DarkSpawn? these are evil @#$%. It wasn't placed in the game simply to make them dispicable. It was there to explain where the hell are all the dark spawn coming from?

 

The elf Alienage? This was done poorly. You could have had human nobles arrive and disrupt the wedding without threats of rape. They could have round up elves to work on the fields, there were plenty of other ways to handle showing the oppression of the elves with out resorting to the threats of rape. So why was rape done? I think it was lazy writing, by having the human noble say its a party everyone grab a ******, you instantly know this guy is evil and has no redeaming value. It is literally in the game to make him a disposable villian and that we should want to kill him and the female elf victums are there simply to show how gritty and terrible city elves have it. Yet there are so many different ways to show this without having to use this trope. So yes i think this is a failure. But this failure doesn't equal a bad game or an evil game. It simply shows that there is room to improve.

 

Can I just say this forums FRAKING quote system is terrible its a bloody nightmare. Trying to do multiple quotes in a single post cause so many problems

[Mathias]

Again, you appear to be ignoring how culture impacts society, and how society impacts culture. 

 

The cultural products we consume do not suddenly spring up in a vacuum, bearing no relation to the world that created them, having no impact on the world that consumes them.

 

Having women in video game being harassed with attitude "this is normal" contributes to normalizing these sexist attitudes in general. It's in large part why any discussion about it is met with such backlash -- because of a prospect that instead of sending the current message "this is normal and prevalent, nothing to feel conscious or bad about" the medium may actually call people out on their **** behavior in real, by presenting scenarios where such "normal" behaviour ain't.

 

Sexist attitudes and practices being mirrored in our escapist media without criticism are reflections of "real" misogyny, and they can have harmful real-life consequences.

 

Media doesn't exit in a vacuum.

 

Yes an no, a woman in a video game being harassed is indeed really problematic if the game acknowledge that as a good thing, messages in stories are powerful tools, otherwise they would not existed since, well ever.

If you pass a message that women are week and victims, that will translate in criminal assaults in real life, criminals do not want fair fights, since they are cowards. So yes your story has a lot of impact if you are middle famous.

 

 

Violent video games do not cause gamers to kill other people, and a woman getting smacked in a video game doesn't cause gamers to beat women. If you hit a woman it's not because you play Gran Theft Auto, it's because you as a person have mental issues. 

 

It's also all about context in which the harassment takes place in the story. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

How is getting impregnated by Darkspawn not rape?

If the Taint can twist a Dwarf into a Broodmother, it can make her into a baby-making machine. Rape doesn't have to be involved for the transformation to take place.  

[Grieving Natashina]

How is getting impregnated by Darkspawn not rape?

I echo this.  I'd really like to know as well. 

 

Caught the next response, so this was my answer:

 

 

If the Taint can twist a Dwarf into a Broodmother, it can make her into a baby-making machine. Rape doesn't have to be involved for the transformation to take place.  

From what I read, it takes a lot more than that.  Including force-feeding her Tainted flesh, and other things.   I think the writing was very...very clear.  I don't think we're seeing just one interpretation.  Broodmothers are a product of force, horror and rape.  There isn't any other way I can see it.   If you don't see it that way, then that's good.  I think you're in the extreme minority though.

[Sully13]

How is getting impregnated by Darkspawn not rape?

Question Do we know thats how it works?  the Brood queens seme to be more like queen ants produceing clone after clone.

[Tenebrae]

The story also has a context. Creating a medieval inspired world, with all the assorted racism, classism, bigotry, superstition and the like, and leaving out sexism completely is nothing more than political correctness for its own sake and I am personally utterly uninterested in such a thing.

 

Besides, stories thrive on conflict, whenever verbal or violent, and conflict is fueled by things like the above. You can't have a combat-focused game with a squeaky clean setting that tries super hard not to offend anyone at all.

 

If people want to avoid being offended, play a E ot T rated game, there are plenty of those on the market that don't tackle those issues, and are certainly not objectively lesser for it. But if you're playing an M rated game, a game that you know happens in a medieval setting where shitty stuff happens, well I'm sorry, but wanting it to be super clean and unoffensive is disingenuous. I mean cripes, it's not like Bioware has ever condoned sexist behavior even if they put it in their game, and since the writing team is composed by a majority of women or gay men I'm pretty sure we can't accuse them of being evil straight white male oppressors either.

 

It still amazes me that being able to massacre hundreds with reckless abandon in many, many video games never elicits a response, but if a NPC in that game isn't nice towards women we should mount on the barricades and be watchul of the rampant sexism. You can only cry wolf for so long before people start to not bother listening anymore. 

 

Very well put, when you play a game that describes itself as dark fantasy or containing dark themes and then proceed to complain and whine about your feelings being hurt (screaming "Misogyny!" "Racism! “Sexism!") by said themes you become a source of ridicule, why play something you know would upset you? It is akin to watching a horror movie when you hate being scared and then complaining that the movie was horrible and that it shouldn’t be so scary.

 

And your right you can only cry wolf for so long before people start to not bother listening anymore, It gotten to the point that i can’t help but role my eyes and tune out when certain peoples starting claiming they’re living in a patriarchy (I'm sorry but unless your living in the Middle east, Africa or Asia your full of it).

 

More to the point if you are easily offended don’t play M rated games, as the poster i quoted said there are plenty of enjoyable T and E rated games that are more your speed.

[Battlebloodmage]

Violent video games do not cause gamers to kill other people, and a woman getting smacked in a video game doesn't cause gamers to beat women. If you hit a woman it's not because you play Gran Theft Auto, it's because you as a person have mental issues. 
 
It's also all about context in which the harassment takes place in the story.

Not always the case. If someone hits you seriously, then they should be expected to be hit back, man or woman.

[Mathias]

I also want to say that I thought the whole storyline with the Broodmother was both fantastic and creepy. It was an effective and disturbing piece of storytelling, that enhanced both the story and how scary of a threat the Darkspawn were.