2014 wasn't any special year for the development of AI in RPGs. Nor were for that matter 5+ years that preceded it.Did you ever stop and think that maybe since it's 2014 that the AI can do most of the stuff tactics would be set at on it's own since capabilities have advanced since DA:O?
Exactly. What I dont like is that this game can be played as a SOLO game in 3rd person, with some AI in there doing stuff (like Skyrim and so many others), or a party game with tactical view (micromanaging everything, like Divinity: Original Sin, or XCOM, or others).
What the game is now lacking, is the possibility of playing from 3rd person, as a team. If I do not tell the companions what to do, then I am not playing with them. Period. Someone, at Bioware, decided what they will do. Not me!
I will put examples:
- If my Inquisitor is being attacked in melée, I want Cassandra to use hook on that enemy.
- But my wife actually does not like this, since she doesnt like mobs changing their location. She wants Vivienne to use Winter grasp on it so it gets CCed / frozen.
- If an enemy is frozen, I want Solas to Stone Fist them to trigger shatter. But I dont want Iron Bull to use Mighty blow on him since it does less damage! But I want Iron Bull to use Mighty Blow normally.
And do not make me start talking about Barrier. Casting barrier seems the most boring thing ever, but necessary in high difficulties. So I want another mage to do it, not the Inquisitor. And I really dont want to mess that up, I want them to use barrier when I am being attacked, not when I am running at the enemy who is far away and I have to run 4 seconds to get there, and then when the actual damage starts hitting my party we are already at 20% barrier.
So far all the footage we have seen, is the AI casting barrier when combat starts, not when Cassandra is actually tanking damage.
So they take out the tac cam and make the game more hack and slash and they are evil developers who want to dumb down the game so that it plays itself. . . . and then when they put it back in and actually - I don't know expect you to use it maybe - that is horrific and game breaking. I want to live on a planet were people make sense.
We have seen the tactics page. Go look at the first page of this thread or take a look at the video Travie posted above. It's not the same as DAO/DA2 at all.
All that video shows is a list of abilities. Then there is a 'Tactics Settings' selection available. We haven't seen all of the Tactics yet, so as I said: overreacting and assuming the worst.
I would bet that the vast, vast majority of DA:O or DA2 players either never adjusted the default tactics or only changed minor things like from ranged to defensive. Bioware has metric tons of telemetry data on how people played. If this was a hugely popular/much used item it would probably still be in the game. I think the pared down tactics options will suit most players fine. I know I played through on Nightmare several times and if I recall the only changes I made to the tactics were who got first dibs on heals and when folks drank pots. I'm sad for the folks who genuinely liked this option but as indicated by spnccarman - it looks to me like the AI works pretty well - especially considering some of the craptastic reviewers I have had the pain of watching over the last two weeks.
I'd say the number who used them or not cannot even begin to be assessed. Bioware doesnt have access to how players play the game. Not to this level anyways without watching or having people tell them.
Its just another thing bioware chose to do for right or wrong. AGain, reinventing the wheel without much of a purpose.
Although if I had to guess. I assume this is to coincide with the stupid 8 ability restriction So for those that were hoping for a small backdoor of using more than 8 in tactics. This is Bioware's big middle finger to that option.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
I wish I remembered more German. I heard Mein Kampf!
But as has already been pointed out, that's only behaviors. In some ways it actually looks more detailed (the potion stuff).
One thing about it that worries me is that I see NOTHING for avoiding AoE attacks. If Bioware has forced AoE melee, in addition to AoE magic, without giving us the option to have these people not take damage like idiots, I'll be p*ssed.
Edit: if that's the tactics page...I hope not. I really, really hope not.
And I have to say, mercy sakes alive, by the MAKER that's a terrible UI. Why in the world do you have to click through each character one by one when you've got all that real estate up in the right corner for portraits? Why in the WORLD are the icons so d*mn large? I'm trying to be nice, but I want to say really insulting things about the person who designed it (or rather, who ported it from console) right now.
I wish I remembered more German. I heard Mein Kampf!
But as has already been pointed out, that's only behaviors. In some ways it actually looks more detailed (the potion stuff).
One thing about it that worries me is that I see NOTHING for avoiding AoE attacks. If Bioware has forced AoE melee, in addition to AoE magic, without giving us the option to have these people not take damage like idiots, I'll be p*ssed.
They need to fix the whole "get out of fire" in general. Even with it turned on in DAO and DA2 I dont know how many times my companions died like morons, because it took them 20 min to figure out they were standing in a pool of fire. Hopefully they fix this...if they didnt it will be very annoying.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Pretty big surprise to me.
Well, I never got huge mileage out of tactics anyway, but I imagine the people who once had starry eyed idealism about expanding tactics to make the whole party run on carefully designed autopilot, either have already or will soon be smashed against the sheer cliffs of disappointment.
You were always able to make the party (except for the controlled character) run on autopilot. That was never a problem. I sure hope it isn't in this game.
Guest_Puddi III_*
But as has already been pointed out, that's only behaviors. In some ways it actually looks more detailed (the potion stuff).
Didn't see the screenshots?
You were always able to make the party (except for the controlled character) run on autopilot. That was never a problem. I sure hope it isn't in this game.
I did say "the whole party."
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Didn't see the screenshots?
I did say "the whole party."
Just saw.
Fair enough. Did anyone? I was one of the few that wanted it and though I and another forum member made multiple threads about it, no one really expected it.
Guest_Puddi III_*
I didn't dislike the idea. You don't have to expect it to want it. I just thought it was funny how they went so far in the opposite direction of doing that by seemingly removing tactics altogether.
. Bioware doesnt have access to how players play the game.
sure they do - if you play with a link to your origins account - the harvest **** tons of data about how you play our game. Ubisoft does the same thing so do a lot of the other big game companies. They know where people die, how, what tactics they use - which gear is chosen most - a boat load of information and they use that info in the development processs.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Roleplaying is completely irrelevant to combat. There is nothing to discuss here.
Writing tactics is a different "challenge" that superficially reduces actual gameplay challenge.
While I agree with you about combat and role-playing, it's a personal opinion, and there are whole subgeneres of RPGs designed around combat as a role-playing experience.
I think the magical word would be "aweso-" err, no, wrong marketing division: "streamlining".
Same as the no auto-attack in non-tac-cam. There must be someone at the head of the approvement pyramid that is wholly convinced that "more button presses per minute" equals "better game". He probably sits right next to the guy whose agenda is "why make everything so complicated, one button can do everything".
I'm 100% certain it was done for multiplayer, at this point. The "regular cam" was designed around multiplayer, and then they stuck in all the "unnecessary stuff" like auto-attack in the tactical view.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
True... but they expanded others.
P.S I wouldn't trust any of the previous games AI to NOT DIE without my help on the harder difficulties. Too stupid.[/i]
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Like Shepard used to say, "This isn't about strategy or tactics. This is about survival."
I didn't dislike the idea. You don't have to expect it to want it. I just thought it was funny how they went so far in the opposite direction of doing that by seemingly removing tactics altogether.
I find it hilarious how people in this thread seem to love getting hung up on semantics about the OP's phrasing of "our fears." Even if OP meant "our" as in "the whole DA fanbase," he obviously doesn't speak for anyone but himself. I can say "everybody hates x" and anyone with a brain knows the actual meaning of my statement is that I hate x...because I'm the one talking. People express sentiments like this all the time. But besides that, OP could have meant "our" as in "DA fans who value the tactics feature?" As in, people who have been worried about this feature being removed or diluted.
So before you post a comment in here, ask yourself if it's relevant to the actual discussion or just extraneous forum noise.
Also, the argument of "AI is better now anyway" isn't really addressing the issue either. People who enjoyed the tactics feature liked it because they could customize behaviors to suit how they built their party. Even if the AI is "better" in terms of doing more logical actions some of the time, it's impossible that they will follow every single condition-effect action a player interested in tactics would desire. If you don't care about tactics, that's fine. But don't think that people who do care about tactics give two craps about whether the AI is "improved." Non-customizable AI is still non-customizable AI.
So laaaaaaaame.
As another said, I found it really fun to try to set up complex, strategic tactics for my party and see how well they would fare without my having to take direct control. It was immersive to me because they are not my character and it's cool to see them use neat combos on their own, like I would expect my character's companions to be able to do. DA is not good at action combat anyway, and it is obvious this will continue in Inquisition. This is no Dark Souls or Shadows of Mordor, it's still a "trading blows" mmo style of combat.
Tactics gave me an interesting and immersive way to play the game. Inquisition will be a good game and I will enjoy it, but the DA team is forever determined to take a step back with every two steps forward. It was also kind of a signature DA thing, but I guess it was too different to be cool. Devs aim for greatness in all the wrong ways these days.
At least we got the tactical camera back. Enjoy it while you can. That'll be gone in the next DA game, lmao.
sure they do - if you play with a link to your origins account - the harvest **** tons of data about how you play our game. Ubisoft does the same thing so do a lot of the other big game companies. They know where people die, how, what tactics they use - which gear is chosen most - a boat load of information and they use that info in the development processs.
That only goes so far. It doesn't give every detail about what they set up in tactics. Even then.. How many people have it set to give feedback? Thats a big unknown number. SO no Bioware doesnt have access to true statistics about how people used tactics
That only goes so far. It doesn't give every detail about what they set up in tactics. Even then.. How many people have it set to give feedback? Thats a big unknown number. SO no Bioware doesnt have access to true statistics about how people used tactics
Inquisition will be a good game and I will enjoy it, but the DA team is forever determined to take a step back with every two steps forward.
This is exactly how I feel about the franchise. Both of the previous games have been extremely enjoyable, and this one looks like the best one yet. Two steps forward and one step back still nets you forward movement, but you just have to ask "why?" for some of these backward steps.
DA2:
+ Improved skill trees; no longer linear, and with upgrades for abilities!
+ Improved tactics feature; more conditions and effects to choose from
+ More responsive combat
+ Streamlined and more user-friendly inventory UI
+ Interesting framed-narrative story
+ More polished game; fewer glitches, framerate slowdown, etc.
+ Excellent character writing
- Tactical cam removed
- Extremely limited, and worse, reused environments
- Cartoony graphics/animations
- Removed race choices
- Fewer companion characters
DA:I:
+ Tactical cam is back!
+ Huge, diverse environments
+ More grounded graphics/animations, but still a distinct visual style
+ Race choices are back!
+ Even better skill tree design, building off DA2's improvements
+ Crafting is better than ever
+ 9 companion characters
+ Multiplayer feature
+ Combat better than ever, with reactive abilities and environment interaction, specific limb targeting on enemies, etc.
- Can no longer customize attributes on level up, they are awarded automatically
- Tactics feature removed
- 8 ability limit, meaning fewer total abilities and more automatic effects as they are consolidated into passives and upgrades
So I'm still extremely excited, but I have to question why they don't build on and improve some features that work really well instead of just removing them entirely. They'll just have to add it back in when they develop the next entry in the series. Although who knows, maybe only like 2% of people will actually miss the tactics feature, and in that case they certainly won't be worrying about it. Also, maybe they'll make a lot more money with the 8 ability limit-based combat system that's designed around real-time gameplay (i.e. multiplayer) than both of their previous games combined; if that happens, there's no way they'll be interested in re-exploring a combat system that requires many more decisions from the player when fighting. 8 is simpler and makes more money; no brainer.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
They'll just have to add it back in when they develop the next entry in the series.
Do you really think so?
Do you really think so?
Well they brought the tactical camera back didn't they?
I'm sure it will be a major selling point in DA4 like the tactical cam was. "Look we brought back our in depth tactics and behaviour system! This will be the best game in the series!!"
Well they bought the tactical camera back didn't they?
I'm sure it will be a major selling point in DA4 like the tactical cam was. "Look we bought back in depth tactics! This will be the best game in the series!!"
Which is really funny, given how often they're pushing DAI to be tactical, when they've not only removed tactical character options, but the actual tactics.
Well they bought the tactical camera back didn't they?
I'm sure it will be a major selling point in DA4 like the tactical cam was. "Look we bought back our depth tactics and behaviour system! This will be the best game in the series!!"
Haha, so cynical.
That's how you know he's right lol.
Also, maybe they'll make a lot more money with the 8 ability limit-based combat system that's designed around real-time gameplay (i.e. multiplayer) than both of their previous games combined; if that happens, there's no way they'll be interested in re-exploring a combat system that requires many more decisions from the player when fighting. 8 is simpler and makes more money; no brainer.
I don't necessarily think it directly ties in to revenue, the movement towards fewer activated abilities has been going on for quite some time especially in the MMO genre, so I think they have chosen to follow that design to make the game a bit more mainstream and thus accessible to more players. Of course those design decisions from a developer/publisher point of view are then hopefully translated into increased revenue. But I really do think their main agenda has been to make the game more mainstream; probably also the reason the sidequests we see in the gameplay previews have very little interaction between the Inquisitor and the questgiver (mostly a "we need this" and then a "Goodbye") as this kind of fast guidance to next combat is probably more sought after by the majority of gamers.
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